widman said:
http://translate.google.com/transla...ue.com/matunami01.htm&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=G
seems like he/she's using altec 604's, instead of jensen
(knew i shudda learned japanese)
freddi said:
Of course, RTFM! I have the original brochure for the Karlson enclosures and tried some of the recommendations. Actually, I realized that I have the driver oriented incorrectly. The horn flare should be mounted vertically and I have it mounted horizontally.
Freddi, please PM me when you get the chance.
pete
I had an H222 last year that came in a folded bachhorn enclosure, similar to the one described here: JENSEN H222 ¹ÖÏä! ÇëÓÐÑо¿µÄ˵˵... - ¡ºÒôÏäÖ®ÃÎÂÛ̳¡» - µ¨ÒÕÐù[Tubebbs]ÂÛ̳¼¯Èº ÒôÏì|½»Ò×|µç×Ó¹Ü|µ¨»ú|µ¨»úÍøÕ¾|µ¨»úÂÛ̳|µ¨»ú²ÄÁÏ|Êä³öÅ£|±äѹÆ÷|µçÔ´Å£|µç×è|µçÈÝ
Another recommended "Ultraflex" enclosure is described here:http://www.tubebooks.org/file_downloads/Jensen_spkr_plans.pdf
It is basically a reconfigured Onken style box of questionable tuning.
It was "OK" sounding. A bit boomy compared with what I am used to. Certainly these cabs look like more trouble than they would be worth to build unless that level of woodworking is a breeze for you.
I suspect that the "crossover" is one cap for the tweeter and maybe another resistor to form an "L" attenuator with the pot. The crossover enclosure on my early unit was smaller than the one in the pic. Open up the can and see.
Another recommended "Ultraflex" enclosure is described here:http://www.tubebooks.org/file_downloads/Jensen_spkr_plans.pdf
It is basically a reconfigured Onken style box of questionable tuning.
It was "OK" sounding. A bit boomy compared with what I am used to. Certainly these cabs look like more trouble than they would be worth to build unless that level of woodworking is a breeze for you.
I suspect that the "crossover" is one cap for the tweeter and maybe another resistor to form an "L" attenuator with the pot. The crossover enclosure on my early unit was smaller than the one in the pic. Open up the can and see.
Joe, nice links and thank you for the reply.
I have a matched pair of them but without cross-over ... and of course I have the Jensen lit as well.
Once I heard them in an open baffle with a woofer crossed at 120Hz. It was nice sounding, the 12" chassis runs without crossover and the tweeter was crossed with a 1uF - think this isn't optimum designed.
Another brochure shows that the X-over should be 2kHz. What do you recommend, simple 6dB or higher?
Thanks
Joao
Joao,
I don't remember any external "crossover" unit.
The crossover components are in the box on the side of the frame with the screw terminals on top. There was a 50 ohm pot on a wire coming out of it.
There seems to be room in the little box for only one resistor and a cap for a 6dB rolloff on the tweeter.
I think this is how it was. See if you can figure out how to remove that cover and see what is in there. Probably an old dried out electrolytic cap.
2kHz sounds about right for the standard H222. If the tweeter is 16-20 ohms, you would need a 4uf cap. 1 uf would yield something like an 8-10k cutoff!
Arguably, the tweeter could use a sharper rolloff, but with vintage gear it is often best to go with the original scheme. If you want to chase "ideal conditions" then DIY or get yourself a pair of modern B&C coaxes and work out a perfect xover!
By the same token, if you get too fancy with the crossover cap, say a Mundorf
D), you might uncover problems you don't want to know about.
These speakers are worth messing with for the vintage speaker fan, I think. Smooth and colorful. The back horn cabinet had crazy bass, if a little uncontrolled. I used it on my TV to watch action movies for a few weeks.
I only had one H222 and I can't build cabinets, so I shifted it on ebay after I had my fun.
I don't remember any external "crossover" unit.
The crossover components are in the box on the side of the frame with the screw terminals on top. There was a 50 ohm pot on a wire coming out of it.
There seems to be room in the little box for only one resistor and a cap for a 6dB rolloff on the tweeter.
I think this is how it was. See if you can figure out how to remove that cover and see what is in there. Probably an old dried out electrolytic cap.
2kHz sounds about right for the standard H222. If the tweeter is 16-20 ohms, you would need a 4uf cap. 1 uf would yield something like an 8-10k cutoff!
Arguably, the tweeter could use a sharper rolloff, but with vintage gear it is often best to go with the original scheme. If you want to chase "ideal conditions" then DIY or get yourself a pair of modern B&C coaxes and work out a perfect xover!
By the same token, if you get too fancy with the crossover cap, say a Mundorf
D), you might uncover problems you don't want to know about.These speakers are worth messing with for the vintage speaker fan, I think. Smooth and colorful. The back horn cabinet had crazy bass, if a little uncontrolled. I used it on my TV to watch action movies for a few weeks.
I only had one H222 and I can't build cabinets, so I shifted it on ebay after I had my fun.
Joe
I only own the drivers without the x-over and so I can’t open them and re-engineer them. My interest was if anyone can share the schematic.
Anyway, your input is very helpful and with the x-over point of 2K I can design my own one. Currently I use a 2.7µF cap and the value seems to be increased for decrease the cut-off frequency. As well I will have them in Open Baffles, no backloaded horn or Ultraflex / Onken style cabinets and, if necessary, I’d use a normal reflex or closed enclosure.
And, of course, I don’t use these fancy parts you mentioned J - and I don’t have interest in new coaxes from B&C etc. My interest is more in Western Electric horns etc.
May I use your knowledge about old stuff? I have another coaxial from RCA – the MI9449CX. Only found that a bass driver MI9449 exists but I was told by the vendor that this version was a “special version” from this bass unit for use in studio monitors at that time. Looks that the tweeter was mounted later on to use it as coaxial chassis – impedances are different as well (32Ω for the bass and 16Ω for the tweeter).
I only own the drivers without the x-over and so I can’t open them and re-engineer them. My interest was if anyone can share the schematic.
Anyway, your input is very helpful and with the x-over point of 2K I can design my own one. Currently I use a 2.7µF cap and the value seems to be increased for decrease the cut-off frequency. As well I will have them in Open Baffles, no backloaded horn or Ultraflex / Onken style cabinets and, if necessary, I’d use a normal reflex or closed enclosure.
And, of course, I don’t use these fancy parts you mentioned J - and I don’t have interest in new coaxes from B&C etc. My interest is more in Western Electric horns etc.
May I use your knowledge about old stuff? I have another coaxial from RCA – the MI9449CX. Only found that a bass driver MI9449 exists but I was told by the vendor that this version was a “special version” from this bass unit for use in studio monitors at that time. Looks that the tweeter was mounted later on to use it as coaxial chassis – impedances are different as well (32Ω for the bass and 16Ω for the tweeter).
2.7uF is not a bad place to start. Easy enough to try 4uf. Don't forget 3.5uF! If it sounds good, it is good! The quality or flavor, if you will, of the cap might matter more for the end result than the absolute value. 2uF ex-CCCP KBG oil caps are 3 for $10 on ebay...try two of those!
I agree that Western Electric is more "interesting" but B&C coaxes are really good! I had a pair of 12CXB (mylar HF driver) and they were one of the most surprising things I heard lately. Used price is less than H222s! They might not be as cool as old Jensens, but they sound a lot better.
I don't know that much about RCA gear. Never really liked their stuff, with a few notable exceptions. Try the Oswalds Mill forums...there are some RCA nerds hanging out over there.
I agree that Western Electric is more "interesting" but B&C coaxes are really good! I had a pair of 12CXB (mylar HF driver) and they were one of the most surprising things I heard lately. Used price is less than H222s! They might not be as cool as old Jensens, but they sound a lot better.
I don't know that much about RCA gear. Never really liked their stuff, with a few notable exceptions. Try the Oswalds Mill forums...there are some RCA nerds hanging out over there.
Joao:
I found this pic of the H222 on your site. The crossover components are inside the box which the arrow points to.
Attached also another pic of complete H222s. There is a 50 ohm pot connected to the box, most likely a shunt resistor (10-100 ohm) and then a series cap.
Rereading your responses, I am not sure if you understood what I was saying about about the crossover. There is no external crossover. It is permanently connected and inside that box on the side of the driver.
Maybe you know this, but if not, it is important.
I found this pic of the H222 on your site. The crossover components are inside the box which the arrow points to.
Attached also another pic of complete H222s. There is a 50 ohm pot connected to the box, most likely a shunt resistor (10-100 ohm) and then a series cap.
Rereading your responses, I am not sure if you understood what I was saying about about the crossover. There is no external crossover. It is permanently connected and inside that box on the side of the driver.
Maybe you know this, but if not, it is important.
Attachments
Once again thank you Joe for your input
I increased the cap and added a 1µF (the good old GEs), summing up to 3.7µF. It sounds much better now and it's a good starting point ... will listen now with this some days. But some measurements must be done as well to be on safe side and controlling
B&C, do they sound really so good and better the Jensens? Asked once the guys at Oswalds Mill but they have no info about the RCA coax. Anyway, it looks like it can be handled like the Jensens.
Yes Joe there was a misunderstanding because I thought they use an external cross-over and now I understand ... but unfortunately inside the box was only an 1µF which crossed the tweeter - too high as we know. The 50 ohm pot is missing as well.
I increased the cap and added a 1µF (the good old GEs), summing up to 3.7µF. It sounds much better now and it's a good starting point ... will listen now with this some days. But some measurements must be done as well to be on safe side and controlling
B&C, do they sound really so good and better the Jensens? Asked once the guys at Oswalds Mill but they have no info about the RCA coax. Anyway, it looks like it can be handled like the Jensens.
Yes Joe there was a misunderstanding because I thought they use an external cross-over and now I understand ... but unfortunately inside the box was only an 1µF which crossed the tweeter - too high as we know. The 50 ohm pot is missing as well.
I found that H-222 pic on your site looking for more info about the RCA. It seems you have the only one on the planet. Does it have a horn? Do you have a pic of the cone side? is it a 30ohm vc on the cone, like the woofer only version?
As I mentioned, I have not had great results with most RCA gear, but anything is possible! This is why I wanted to learn more.
Actually , I have never had any coax that I loved except the RCA LC-1s, which is one of the good RCA units. I never tried the Altec 605 which still haunts my mind, but I tried a lot of the other Altecs, Tannoys, Stephens, etc.
This is why I was so impressed with the B&C. The bass went quite low and powerful, the mylar HF driver was smooth and musical and it was quite well integrated. They could play super loud...sound reinforcement level.
I had them installed in very ugly vintage 3.5 cu.ft. cabinets that had to go. I trashed the cabs and sold the pair of B&Cs but got only a little more money than I did for ONE H-222!
I would have to say the B&C was a far more sophisticated sound than the Jensen, but a more modern sound and lacking the "deep character" one might get from good vintage gear.
A lot of people don't want that vintage character anyway. I decide on a case by case basis.
I am known as a "vintage guy" and I played with a lot of old gear but I think only a very small percentage of vintage items are really great, same as only a small percentage of modern items are really and truly great. Much of it is fun, however.
That is what I like about this full range sub forum. People aren't trying to get the world's very best, they are looking for simple pleasures and satisfactions, build some projects and experiment, have some fun.
Usually when people try to take audio to the limits, they lose it. Better to stay a little bit humble!
As I mentioned, I have not had great results with most RCA gear, but anything is possible! This is why I wanted to learn more.
Actually , I have never had any coax that I loved except the RCA LC-1s, which is one of the good RCA units. I never tried the Altec 605 which still haunts my mind, but I tried a lot of the other Altecs, Tannoys, Stephens, etc.
This is why I was so impressed with the B&C. The bass went quite low and powerful, the mylar HF driver was smooth and musical and it was quite well integrated. They could play super loud...sound reinforcement level.
I had them installed in very ugly vintage 3.5 cu.ft. cabinets that had to go. I trashed the cabs and sold the pair of B&Cs but got only a little more money than I did for ONE H-222!
I would have to say the B&C was a far more sophisticated sound than the Jensen, but a more modern sound and lacking the "deep character" one might get from good vintage gear.
A lot of people don't want that vintage character anyway. I decide on a case by case basis.
I am known as a "vintage guy" and I played with a lot of old gear but I think only a very small percentage of vintage items are really great, same as only a small percentage of modern items are really and truly great. Much of it is fun, however.
That is what I like about this full range sub forum. People aren't trying to get the world's very best, they are looking for simple pleasures and satisfactions, build some projects and experiment, have some fun.
Usually when people try to take audio to the limits, they lose it. Better to stay a little bit humble!
@ Jensen:
I listen now with the 3.7µF and I think I’ll insert the mentioned 50Ω Pot to adjust / play the volume of the tweeter. But like mentioned it’s a step forward and I’ll take a long-term experience now.
@RCA:
Maybe I am the only one on the planet owning this chassis – it looks like this because nobody else can give me info about it. The bass driver is known.... and because of its resonance frequency, around 50Hz & it’s very stiff, lightweight diaphragm, you can handle it like the Jensen.
Onto facts: bass driver impedance is 32Ω vc – like the standalone woofer. The tweeter is 16Ω and mounted in front of the bass cone. You can say in the opposite way like all the other coax drivers. Sorry, I have no images from the chassis because it’s mounted in a Olson style reflex enclosure. Sure I have to disassemble it and take some pictures.
I think with RCA and WE we are of topic now, can we continue our discussion by e-Mail?
Quote:
I am known as a "vintage guy" and I played with a lot of old gear but I think only a very small percentage of vintage items are really great, same as only a small percentage of modern items are really and truly great. Much of it is fun, however.
That is what I like about this full range sub forum. People aren't trying to get the world's very best, they are looking for simple pleasures and satisfactions, build some projects and experiment, have some fun.
Usually when people try to take audio to the limits, they lose it. Better to stay a little bit humble!
End of quote:
You’re on the root. What is world’s best, who can be sure that itself world is best? It’s best for you and we should follow the internal feeling, the heart.
Going / searching to the limits is sometimes ok but we should never forget the basic ground.
I listen now with the 3.7µF and I think I’ll insert the mentioned 50Ω Pot to adjust / play the volume of the tweeter. But like mentioned it’s a step forward and I’ll take a long-term experience now.
@RCA:
Maybe I am the only one on the planet owning this chassis – it looks like this because nobody else can give me info about it. The bass driver is known.... and because of its resonance frequency, around 50Hz & it’s very stiff, lightweight diaphragm, you can handle it like the Jensen.
Onto facts: bass driver impedance is 32Ω vc – like the standalone woofer. The tweeter is 16Ω and mounted in front of the bass cone. You can say in the opposite way like all the other coax drivers. Sorry, I have no images from the chassis because it’s mounted in a Olson style reflex enclosure. Sure I have to disassemble it and take some pictures.
I think with RCA and WE we are of topic now, can we continue our discussion by e-Mail?
Quote:
I am known as a "vintage guy" and I played with a lot of old gear but I think only a very small percentage of vintage items are really great, same as only a small percentage of modern items are really and truly great. Much of it is fun, however.
That is what I like about this full range sub forum. People aren't trying to get the world's very best, they are looking for simple pleasures and satisfactions, build some projects and experiment, have some fun.
Usually when people try to take audio to the limits, they lose it. Better to stay a little bit humble!
End of quote:
You’re on the root. What is world’s best, who can be sure that itself world is best? It’s best for you and we should follow the internal feeling, the heart.
Going / searching to the limits is sometimes ok but we should never forget the basic ground.
This thread was off topic from the start in the Full Range forum since it about multi way coaxes!
Where it all relates is in the idea that you give one thing up to get another. With full ranges you sometimes give up a lot and you can sometimes get a lot.
I get to play with a lot of very expensive, rare, and fantastic equipment in my audio life and I have had tons of vintage gear in the past. For me, the important thing is the knowledge and understanding of the possibilities gained by surveying old and new, cheap and expensive, rare and commonplace.
I don't actually want to own most of it and in fact, owning less junk is a form of freedom. My goal is to have the minimum amount of audio that makes me happy.
It took me a lot of gear to start to figure out what this point is and, oddly, I think it might be a pair of 755A full ranges which is where I was in 1986!
I'm putting together a new system now, after a few years of not having any "real" stuff at home, and it will be PP 2A3 class triode amps or a SE 300B, Altec/WE full range cones, and a 301 turntable--all of which I had 25 years ago. However, after half a lifetime of exploring far more extreme measures, I appreciate it even more.
So nobody would say that the Jensen H222 is the greatest at anything, but finding the special joy in it is on topic for me in the full range forum...
This thread got 4300 hits so far so obviously some would agree!
Joe, this is a kind of statement, hats off for your comments on simplicity. Especially from one who can “play” with all that fancy WE gear at Silbatone. Going back to the basics J you already had 25 years back...
Had you the chance to listen to the WE555 version from Line Magnetic, and how does it compare to the original from WE/Altec? I think Jensen produced some kind of such stuff too?
I think many are using the coax drivers as best alternative to fullrange because it and combines the larger bass extension and tweeter from the 2-way speakers – in common with the “point-source”. Any thoughts about this compared to the WE555 or other fullrangers?
Had you the chance to listen to the WE555 version from Line Magnetic, and how does it compare to the original from WE/Altec? I think Jensen produced some kind of such stuff too?
I think many are using the coax drivers as best alternative to fullrange because it and combines the larger bass extension and tweeter from the 2-way speakers – in common with the “point-source”. Any thoughts about this compared to the WE555 or other fullrangers?
It is easy to get to a point where your possessions own you!
It sounds like a wonderful thing to have a huge collection of giant theater gear, but it is a lot of work, a tremendous expense, and a big responsibility to own this rare museum stuff.
The ideal plan is to have a small but satisfying system and then have friends who take on the challenges of mega-installations and then invite you over for drinks and music listening!
I know what bass from four WE 4181 18" field coil woofers sounds like....superb! This doesn't mean I can't be happy with 755As in 2 cubic foot boxes. At least I can move them myself.
JOe - thanks for your input on the Jensen h222 - I just completed - after a fair amount of research - some Onken style cabs for my pair and they sound great - except the horn can cut your head off - I am missing the pot - any ideas for a specific 50 ohm pot and 4-5uf cap to use ? I want to replace the crossover caps as well.
I'm new here - is there a way too post images from my desktop?
thanks
bob berry
I'm new here - is there a way too post images from my desktop?
thanks
bob berry
jensen h222 in Onken Cabs
I made for them based on the Onken model. I did some checking - as these are 16 ohm speakers - and everything I can find says they crossover at 2K my calcs and the tables I have referenced have called for a 4.9687 uf (4.9) cap for the horn and (If I desire) a 1.27 mh inductor for the woofer which I may not do as it is not in keeping with the original. I was looking for the appropriate l-pad and so far 47-50 is what I am guessing. By the way these sound amazing.
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I made for them based on the Onken model. I did some checking - as these are 16 ohm speakers - and everything I can find says they crossover at 2K my calcs and the tables I have referenced have called for a 4.9687 uf (4.9) cap for the horn and (If I desire) a 1.27 mh inductor for the woofer which I may not do as it is not in keeping with the original. I was looking for the appropriate l-pad and so far 47-50 is what I am guessing. By the way these sound amazing.
I ran mine like mentionrd above... the bass-mid fullrange and cross only the tweeter with8dB filter. It's a bit higher like the 2k but remember the bass runs fullrange. Measures perfect with this settings, and sounds good of course.
BTW, I use this settings with my 15" coax drivers as well with good results.
BTW, I use this settings with my 15" coax drivers as well with good results.
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