In this forum we normally judge and tweak DIY efforts on technical merit. Never on a price point. We mostly seek DIY technical excellence so to beat the Dollar. If its an expensive project we do that still, because we shoot for performance on par or above stratospherically priced products. Big savings.
The problem with really helping you, is that you have made no design or having any technical data. You put together some off the shelf bits at a point,still sounds nice to you, you don't like the JBLs. That's our available ''data''. That's hardly a place to begin.
We could start making a zillion guesses and suggestions and put you in a buying and trying components trip. But that would be irresponsible and childish from our side. We have no grounds you see. My best 2c of advice would be to just buy a Panasonic electret mic capsule make a dirt cheap wand microphone with it, and a dirt cheap op amp DIY pre amp for it, download Speaker Workshop (free), use your PC as a measurement station and tweak what you have. Sell the JBLs. When you come back with frequency response and impedance data for each one of your drivers on your box baffle, and for some common arbitrary listening axis, we REALLY can be helpful. All else would be hit or miss and frustration.
The problem with really helping you, is that you have made no design or having any technical data. You put together some off the shelf bits at a point,still sounds nice to you, you don't like the JBLs. That's our available ''data''. That's hardly a place to begin.
We could start making a zillion guesses and suggestions and put you in a buying and trying components trip. But that would be irresponsible and childish from our side. We have no grounds you see. My best 2c of advice would be to just buy a Panasonic electret mic capsule make a dirt cheap wand microphone with it, and a dirt cheap op amp DIY pre amp for it, download Speaker Workshop (free), use your PC as a measurement station and tweak what you have. Sell the JBLs. When you come back with frequency response and impedance data for each one of your drivers on your box baffle, and for some common arbitrary listening axis, we REALLY can be helpful. All else would be hit or miss and frustration.
Usually whatever speakers we listen to most are what sounds best to us, regardless of how they actually sound.
I have a friend who built a dedicated home theater in his basement last year. Prior to this he had a Bose 5.1 channel setup. IMO, the Bose system sounded terrible especially when driven hard. He was very happy with the Bose and was going to get a similar system for the HT. I convinced him to triple his budget and he went with all Paradigm Reference Studio speakers which both measure and sound very good.
First time my friend listened to the system he thought it sounded terrible. He said the there was no midrange, too much treble, and way too much bass. Hmmm exactly the opposite of his old Bose speakers. Both his dealer and I assured him that it sounded excellent (it really did) and to give it a try over the next couple weeks. I visited him about two months later and he then loved the new setup. In fact he got rid of the Bose system in the family room and replaced it with a Paradigm on wall system that sounded lots better than the Bose, though not nearly as good as his HT.
My point here is that you are very used to your DIY speakers Regardless of how accurate they are, they are what your ears are used to hearing for music. If you have no baffle step compensation in your current speaker, you are probably used to have very elevated mids and lower treble. Any speaker that is flat in the mids may sound lifeless to you. I would recommend going to a decent hi fi shop and listen to some speakers that measure well and are well regarded (regardless of price). If they sound muddy and muffled through the mids, then you are just used to a different sound.
Don't get me wrong, the JBLs may be a poorly designed terrible sounding speaker, but you do need to consider that your tastes have been colored by your current speakers.
Kind regards,
Dennis
I have a friend who built a dedicated home theater in his basement last year. Prior to this he had a Bose 5.1 channel setup. IMO, the Bose system sounded terrible especially when driven hard. He was very happy with the Bose and was going to get a similar system for the HT. I convinced him to triple his budget and he went with all Paradigm Reference Studio speakers which both measure and sound very good.
First time my friend listened to the system he thought it sounded terrible. He said the there was no midrange, too much treble, and way too much bass. Hmmm exactly the opposite of his old Bose speakers. Both his dealer and I assured him that it sounded excellent (it really did) and to give it a try over the next couple weeks. I visited him about two months later and he then loved the new setup. In fact he got rid of the Bose system in the family room and replaced it with a Paradigm on wall system that sounded lots better than the Bose, though not nearly as good as his HT.
My point here is that you are very used to your DIY speakers Regardless of how accurate they are, they are what your ears are used to hearing for music. If you have no baffle step compensation in your current speaker, you are probably used to have very elevated mids and lower treble. Any speaker that is flat in the mids may sound lifeless to you. I would recommend going to a decent hi fi shop and listen to some speakers that measure well and are well regarded (regardless of price). If they sound muddy and muffled through the mids, then you are just used to a different sound.
Don't get me wrong, the JBLs may be a poorly designed terrible sounding speaker, but you do need to consider that your tastes have been colored by your current speakers.
Kind regards,
Dennis
BlueWizard said:First, again thanks to all for the reality check. What's done is done, and, for now, I have to live with it. But if you really knew how hard it was for me to part with that $200, you would be far more sympathetic.
Steve:
You keep whining about the pricetag. I understand having a lack of income, I think a fair number of us have been there. Certainly part of DIY is frugality, though that may not be the case for some people (Shinobiwan, for example, gets to buy all the best toys, but then, he deserves them, looking at the effort he puts in).
But you're whining about the price, and refusing to recoup your investment by selling them off. Basically, this whole thread is predicated on irrationality- you bought something because it was getting blown out, and you're not happy with it, so you want to fix it....
Just sell them off and start a new diy speaker with the cash. Done. $200 buys you enough parts to do an Audio Nirvana or large Fostex BIB, that'll likely give you vocal intelligibility to spare, not to mention, big, rockin, high output bass.
I would redo your home made speaker by building a box tuned correctly for the woofer. I don't think the JBL will sound as good no matter what you do. Can you return them or was the sale final? Maybe you can return them for something else you may need - dvd player or even some dvds or cds... tell them you had an argument with someone in your house about keeping them and lost. They may give you a store credit you can use when you want something else. Then figure out the new box dimensions and re build your home made speakers into even better ones than they are now. You will love them!
I bought the JBL to replace my old DIY speakers, and I thought I was taking a huge set upward. The common selling price for the JBL's is $200 to $250 apiece. Though no one ever pays it, the suggested retail is over $650/pair. So, again, I thought I was taking a huge step upward in sound and general quality.
Next, I'm not refusing to sell them, and I am willing to listen to them more and get used to them, and I am willing to get some more ears on the job to evaluate them. Though as I said, being in the middle of nowhere creates a shortage of both discerning people to listen and places to go and listen to other speakers.
Around here most buy their stereo equipment from either Walmart for consumer electronics or Best Buy for what they consider 'audiophile' equipment, which means JBL, Klipsch, and Sony. All of which are normally out of my price range. To even remotely hear a decent quality speaker, which would certainly also be far out of my price range, I would have to spend $50, and look extremely hard. But that's just life, can't remake the world.
Regardless of the sound quality in comparing the two speakers, there is a noticeable listening fatigue with the JBLs, that's not a good sign.
So, while I originally planned to retire my DIY speakers, I'm now planning to rebuild them; lots of labor, very little cost. I have some question relating to that, that I will post in another thread.
So, as others have said, why throw good money after bad? But the JBLs, based on my current perception, sound so bad compared to my DIY speakers, that I will have to hide my DIY in the closest when anyone comes to audition the JBLs. The JBLs sound tolerable on their own, it is only in contrast to my DIY that they sound flat.
Despite my disappointment, I am willing to give the JBL's a chance, and really have no choice since I will have to completely tear my DIY speakers apart to do some woodworking on the cabinets. So, until my DIY are modified, I have to listen to the JBLs.
As to returning them, it was an 'as is' sale, so what is done is done. I accept that.
Yet, I do confess myself disappointed.
Again, I appreciate the comments. I wasn't actually hoping for a miracle when I posted here, but I was willing to accept one if it came.
steve/bluewizard
Next, I'm not refusing to sell them, and I am willing to listen to them more and get used to them, and I am willing to get some more ears on the job to evaluate them. Though as I said, being in the middle of nowhere creates a shortage of both discerning people to listen and places to go and listen to other speakers.
Around here most buy their stereo equipment from either Walmart for consumer electronics or Best Buy for what they consider 'audiophile' equipment, which means JBL, Klipsch, and Sony. All of which are normally out of my price range. To even remotely hear a decent quality speaker, which would certainly also be far out of my price range, I would have to spend $50, and look extremely hard. But that's just life, can't remake the world.
Regardless of the sound quality in comparing the two speakers, there is a noticeable listening fatigue with the JBLs, that's not a good sign.
So, while I originally planned to retire my DIY speakers, I'm now planning to rebuild them; lots of labor, very little cost. I have some question relating to that, that I will post in another thread.
So, as others have said, why throw good money after bad? But the JBLs, based on my current perception, sound so bad compared to my DIY speakers, that I will have to hide my DIY in the closest when anyone comes to audition the JBLs. The JBLs sound tolerable on their own, it is only in contrast to my DIY that they sound flat.
Despite my disappointment, I am willing to give the JBL's a chance, and really have no choice since I will have to completely tear my DIY speakers apart to do some woodworking on the cabinets. So, until my DIY are modified, I have to listen to the JBLs.
As to returning them, it was an 'as is' sale, so what is done is done. I accept that.
Yet, I do confess myself disappointed.
Again, I appreciate the comments. I wasn't actually hoping for a miracle when I posted here, but I was willing to accept one if it came.
steve/bluewizard
I'm experimenting with my speakers again, trying as hard as possible to make it a fair comparison. Believe me I am trying to love the JBLs. As tired as you are of hearing me whine about money, me spending $200 is about like the average person spending $2,000. It's serious money. But again, what is done is done. Live and learn.
I did manage to pop the dents out of the woofers, but one midrange is being stubborn. I popped it mostly out, but still have one very noticeable dent in the center about 3/8" diameter. I used sticky fiberglass re-enforced packing tape. You need something with serious 'stick', masking tape gives way too easily.
As you know, my DIY speaker at any setting have substantial midrange coming from the 3x9 horn.
So, it occurred to me that certainly bright loud midrange is going to make the music 'pop' and stand out. So, to get as fair a comparison as possible I dialed the midrange back on my DIY speakers until it was as close as possible to the JBLs.
The dial on the back of the cabinet (L-Pad) has a printed range on it that goes from
MIN. ---------------------- MAX.
When the dial is pointing just below the dot (.) on 'MIN.', it is at full turn and the sound is off. I turn the dial upward until I can just hear the midrange, and the dial points to the 'I' in MIN. That is how low it has to be to even be remotely comparable to the JBL.
And, it did make a difference, but there is no way I can dial the midrange back enough, to truly equal the JBL. The closest I can come, is to turn the midrange literally OFF.
Which is odd, because as I've repeatedly said, when I put my ear right up to the JBL Mid, it is clear and crisp. Amazingly so compared to when I step back.
Again, I'm well aware that this is purely subjective. But I'm not in a position where I can take measurements, so subjective perception is about all I have.
Still, I'm lovin' those horns even if they do overwhelm everything else.
Just out of curiosity, I looked on the Internet for the current closest equivalents to my DIY speakers. Using a Dayton Classic 12" woofer which has similar resonance, response, and magnet weight, I calculated $83.90 per speakers (woofer, midhorn, piezo tweeter, X-over, L-Pad).
The Daytons are probably a little better than my CTS, but they are as close a match as I could find in a low cost woofer.
If nothing else, I though you might be amazed at how low I had to set my midrange to match the JBL.
Just passing it along.
And again, I do appreciate the comments, I'm well away that I was asking a virtually impossible question, but miracles do occur. So, a guy can always hope.
Steve/bluewizard
I did manage to pop the dents out of the woofers, but one midrange is being stubborn. I popped it mostly out, but still have one very noticeable dent in the center about 3/8" diameter. I used sticky fiberglass re-enforced packing tape. You need something with serious 'stick', masking tape gives way too easily.
As you know, my DIY speaker at any setting have substantial midrange coming from the 3x9 horn.
So, it occurred to me that certainly bright loud midrange is going to make the music 'pop' and stand out. So, to get as fair a comparison as possible I dialed the midrange back on my DIY speakers until it was as close as possible to the JBLs.
The dial on the back of the cabinet (L-Pad) has a printed range on it that goes from
MIN. ---------------------- MAX.
When the dial is pointing just below the dot (.) on 'MIN.', it is at full turn and the sound is off. I turn the dial upward until I can just hear the midrange, and the dial points to the 'I' in MIN. That is how low it has to be to even be remotely comparable to the JBL.
And, it did make a difference, but there is no way I can dial the midrange back enough, to truly equal the JBL. The closest I can come, is to turn the midrange literally OFF.
Which is odd, because as I've repeatedly said, when I put my ear right up to the JBL Mid, it is clear and crisp. Amazingly so compared to when I step back.
Again, I'm well aware that this is purely subjective. But I'm not in a position where I can take measurements, so subjective perception is about all I have.
Still, I'm lovin' those horns even if they do overwhelm everything else.
Just out of curiosity, I looked on the Internet for the current closest equivalents to my DIY speakers. Using a Dayton Classic 12" woofer which has similar resonance, response, and magnet weight, I calculated $83.90 per speakers (woofer, midhorn, piezo tweeter, X-over, L-Pad).
The Daytons are probably a little better than my CTS, but they are as close a match as I could find in a low cost woofer.
If nothing else, I though you might be amazed at how low I had to set my midrange to match the JBL.
Just passing it along.
And again, I do appreciate the comments, I'm well away that I was asking a virtually impossible question, but miracles do occur. So, a guy can always hope.
Steve/bluewizard
Damn Steve! You really took a beating, both on the JBLs and on this thread - but you keep hanging in there. Bravo!
A few random thoughts from me.
The $100 solution is going to be tough, as Salas points out. We just don't know enough about the JBLs to offer cheap fixes. There may well be some, but it's going to be hard to know.
You've proved your point - better to build than to buy!
Please do test the JBLs as mentioned above. Run some sweeps. If you don't have sweeps, I'm sure someone here (even me) can get you some. Listen for any possible damage or unevenness between the 2 sides.
Do give the JBLs a couple of weeks. Get used to them. Then go back to the old ones, tell us what you think.
Is it possible the JBL was designed with a recessed midrange? Sort of a built in loudness curve? It can make speakers sound "fuller." Your homemade speakers may have the opposite curve.
When you've got a good horn, it's easy to turn it up too loud. I speak from experience.
If nothing else, sell them and fold the money back into your old speakers. You'll have the speakers you already like, but better!
A few random thoughts from me.
The $100 solution is going to be tough, as Salas points out. We just don't know enough about the JBLs to offer cheap fixes. There may well be some, but it's going to be hard to know.
You've proved your point - better to build than to buy!
Please do test the JBLs as mentioned above. Run some sweeps. If you don't have sweeps, I'm sure someone here (even me) can get you some. Listen for any possible damage or unevenness between the 2 sides.
Do give the JBLs a couple of weeks. Get used to them. Then go back to the old ones, tell us what you think.
Is it possible the JBL was designed with a recessed midrange? Sort of a built in loudness curve? It can make speakers sound "fuller." Your homemade speakers may have the opposite curve.
When you've got a good horn, it's easy to turn it up too loud. I speak from experience.
If nothing else, sell them and fold the money back into your old speakers. You'll have the speakers you already like, but better!
mashaffer,
I wondered that too. I'm considering opening them up just to look at how the midrange is connected. If there are spade connections on the Mids, it's really easy to switch them around and listen. Or if there are screw terminals on the Mid X-O, I might be able to swap them there, just as a test.
I think for the moment, fixing my DIY speakers is my first priority.
Now I've heard them against a fairly good speaker, and I prefer them, I see no reason to change.
I wondered that too. I'm considering opening them up just to look at how the midrange is connected. If there are spade connections on the Mids, it's really easy to switch them around and listen. Or if there are screw terminals on the Mid X-O, I might be able to swap them there, just as a test.
I think for the moment, fixing my DIY speakers is my first priority.
Now I've heard them against a fairly good speaker, and I prefer them, I see no reason to change.
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