Cuppa Joe,
Thanks for responding. What are good waveguides? Looking on Parts Express, there are some inexpensive waveguides and really expensive ones. Are the pricier ones necessarily better? Or which ones are known to be good? Is there a way to tell if a horn has a squared-off throat from the pictures?
Thanks.
Thanks for responding. What are good waveguides? Looking on Parts Express, there are some inexpensive waveguides and really expensive ones. Are the pricier ones necessarily better? Or which ones are known to be good? Is there a way to tell if a horn has a squared-off throat from the pictures?
Thanks.
Before you make any kind of horn/driver purchase, I suggest that you build the midbass horn 1st & figure out how high it will play. It's possible that a larger format horn/driver combo might be necessary.
The problem with offering an opinion on horns I haven't used is that it's just an opinion. Given that, the 1" horns at PE with which I have experience are the JBL 2370A & the RCF HF94 (with the 1.4" throat option), and neither will disappoint. However, the QSC PL-000446GP & the Selenium HM25-25 also look decent.
If you're investing in the materials & time to build a pro audio midbass horn, you shouldn't be cutting corners on budget HF components.
The problem with offering an opinion on horns I haven't used is that it's just an opinion. Given that, the 1" horns at PE with which I have experience are the JBL 2370A & the RCF HF94 (with the 1.4" throat option), and neither will disappoint. However, the QSC PL-000446GP & the Selenium HM25-25 also look decent.
If you're investing in the materials & time to build a pro audio midbass horn, you shouldn't be cutting corners on budget HF components.
I understand that this HS12 is inspired by the BFM OmniTop 12. Aside from moving the ports to the interior to cut down on feedback, what other differences are there between the HS12 and the OTop12? It seems a lot simpler to construct the HS12. What are the trade offs? I noticed no phase plug. How does that affect the sound?
The HS12 does seem pretty elegantly simple to build compared to the BFM designs. I'm curious if it's trading off performance for simplicity, and how much.
The HS12 does seem pretty elegantly simple to build compared to the BFM designs. I'm curious if it's trading off performance for simplicity, and how much.
I recall that the original BFM mid horns didn't have phase plugs & were ported somewhere within the horn. The HS12 appears to be a semblance of an archived BFM design.
A phase plug delays the sound which leaves the dustcap (voice coil) area 1st by making it take a longer path, so it can be more closely in phase with the sound leaving the outer edge of the cone later. The result is more HF extension.
I'm really hoping that someone with more education & experience can explain it better....
A phase plug delays the sound which leaves the dustcap (voice coil) area 1st by making it take a longer path, so it can be more closely in phase with the sound leaving the outer edge of the cone later. The result is more HF extension.
I'm really hoping that someone with more education & experience can explain it better....
The first full range BF design with a straight horn was the Omni 10. No phase plug, rectangular throat, single angle horn plates. Slot port in the baffle, which I remember some bass players complaining about "chuffing" at high volume. The horn was about 15" wide, the cab 21" wide and tweeter array on the side.
These were actually very good sounding boxes for small PA duty. I corresponded some with JBell around this time, he had shoe-horned the O10 horn into the wedgehorn 8 shell. I built a slightly different version, really a tilt back O10, as a monitor that worked quite well with no ports at all.
In general, using the Eminence drivers with "rising response", the phase plug, LP/HP crossover were all purposed to offset/improve on the limited range of the piezos. None of the original designs with piezos had any crossover at all.
These were actually very good sounding boxes for small PA duty. I corresponded some with JBell around this time, he had shoe-horned the O10 horn into the wedgehorn 8 shell. I built a slightly different version, really a tilt back O10, as a monitor that worked quite well with no ports at all.
In general, using the Eminence drivers with "rising response", the phase plug, LP/HP crossover were all purposed to offset/improve on the limited range of the piezos. None of the original designs with piezos had any crossover at all.
Power response of that type of horn start to take a dive by around 800 Hz. With highish mass low BL drivers (ie. Eminence) its worse than old standbys like the EVM12L - which would have trouble making 80 Hz on the low end. Unless you're gonna cross to a 2" CD/horn you'll still need a rising response in the mid/bass driver.
Of course some would have you believe that you can EQ out any anomaly caused by things like falling power response. Works ok above 5k where you don't need many watts. Eating up headroom in the midrange causes problems IMO, so the flatter you can make it the better.
Of course some would have you believe that you can EQ out any anomaly caused by things like falling power response. Works ok above 5k where you don't need many watts. Eating up headroom in the midrange causes problems IMO, so the flatter you can make it the better.
The Delta 10's were the original high mid driver in my 'cluster****s' array, before biting the bullet and getting 8PE21's. You don't get something for nothing with them though - they don't go down spectacularly low. Only 100 Hz in a reflex box, not quite that far on a horn. Really good 200 to 2k. I was still looking for the nirvana driver that could horn load down to 80 (with enough excursion to do something with) and play to about 1.3k cleanly without relying on EQ. I finally said the hell with it, split the band at 300, and folded the bottoms. It made for a really big system, but with 8 lab horns who cares if the tops are on the large side?
Those tops did have the Delta 10's in there until I found something with lower distortion. Then they made fantasitc compact monitors.
Those tops did have the Delta 10's in there until I found something with lower distortion. Then they made fantasitc compact monitors.
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I've got a pair of 8PE21's, but designing the right horn for them seems problematic. I'm not convinced that the X-Tro horn performs as claimed, & the Keele equation throat area seems to produce dips at 1kHz when the throat is square (according to another designer's attempts). They would be part of a 3-way top box, between a pair of 12's & a DE250 with possible Xovers at 400Hz & 2.1kHz. Personally, I'm a wimp & wouldn't cross them lower than 300Hz.
I like the Delta 10A just because it's so versatile, doesn't cost too much & isn't too heavy. Eminence claims that it's one of their better sellers. I'd be curious to know some details of your particular midhorn design.
Horn-loaded mids to 80Hz? You could build an outhouse in a horn that large!
I like the Delta 10A just because it's so versatile, doesn't cost too much & isn't too heavy. Eminence claims that it's one of their better sellers. I'd be curious to know some details of your particular midhorn design.
Horn-loaded mids to 80Hz? You could build an outhouse in a horn that large!
Thinking of going after a pair of these. First ever "top". Kinda jonesing for a project since my Keystone TH turned out so well...
Any success stories or criticism? Looks like the Dayton 12" waveguide is no longer and I will go with a 10". Leaning on the Dayton 310 over the Beta 12A. I am bit curious about the interaction of the waveguide with the horn and mid driver. With all the rage about unity and synergy horns I am tempted to try and get the CD and waveguide really close to the dustcap of the woofer instead of mounting to the grille. Definitely something to experiment with along with smaller and/or different wave guides. Any thoughts appreciated!
Any success stories or criticism? Looks like the Dayton 12" waveguide is no longer and I will go with a 10". Leaning on the Dayton 310 over the Beta 12A. I am bit curious about the interaction of the waveguide with the horn and mid driver. With all the rage about unity and synergy horns I am tempted to try and get the CD and waveguide really close to the dustcap of the woofer instead of mounting to the grille. Definitely something to experiment with along with smaller and/or different wave guides. Any thoughts appreciated!
Also I fear in a setup like this, the Selenium 220ti might not be able to handle the power needed of it. The often quoted 2500ti does not seem to be available anymore, what other CD would be a good replacement in this case? Or maybe a single 220ti is enough, given this design aims for a crossover around 1800Hz?
Sorry, my previous post got cut in half it seems, I'll try again (did not find an edit feature here?):
We would like to build 2x12 tops roughly based on the designs given here by doubling up the design to two 12" drivers. We are currently planning with either Dayton PA310 drivers or a pair of Kappalite 3012HO (both have been mentioned here als reasonable performance oriented alternatives). In a build like this, would operate both woofers in their own volume or is it better to operate them both in the joint volume (which will be double the volume each individual woofer would have).
Also, ideally we would only run such tops with a single CD driver. [This is where the previous post is coming in] I fear in a setup like this, the Selenium 220ti might not be able to handle the power needed of it. The often quoted 2500ti does not seem to be available I fear in a setup like this, the Selenium 220ti might not be able to handle the power needed of it. The often quoted 2500ti does not seem to be available anymore, what other CD would be a good replacement in this case? Or maybe a single 220ti is enough, given this design aims for a crossover around 1800Hz?
We would like to build 2x12 tops roughly based on the designs given here by doubling up the design to two 12" drivers. We are currently planning with either Dayton PA310 drivers or a pair of Kappalite 3012HO (both have been mentioned here als reasonable performance oriented alternatives). In a build like this, would operate both woofers in their own volume or is it better to operate them both in the joint volume (which will be double the volume each individual woofer would have).
Also, ideally we would only run such tops with a single CD driver. [This is where the previous post is coming in] I fear in a setup like this, the Selenium 220ti might not be able to handle the power needed of it. The often quoted 2500ti does not seem to be available I fear in a setup like this, the Selenium 220ti might not be able to handle the power needed of it. The often quoted 2500ti does not seem to be available anymore, what other CD would be a good replacement in this case? Or maybe a single 220ti is enough, given this design aims for a crossover around 1800Hz?
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