Is there more to Audio Measurements?

[Evenharmonics]

Moderator note: This thread split from: What kind of evidence do you consider as sufficient?

It may start a bit funny, but it gets more normal as it progresses.

This conveys my sentiment better than I can write here:
“P < 0.05” Might Not Mean What You Think: American Statistical Association Clarifies P Values | JNCI: Journal of the National Cancer Institute | Oxford Academic

#4 here:
http://nyarlathotep33.free.fr/hfr/TenAudioLies.pdf

 

[planet10]

#4 here:
http://nyarlathotep33.free.fr/hfr/TenAudioLies.pdf

Nice piece of staire that.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

temp2 ambiguous

Nice piece of staire that.

If you meant satire, no, those are not satire. They are accurate to real life events. That is unless you can debunk any one of the 10 with proof.

 

[Evenharmonics]

The are/brain gets really good at filling in missing information. Because of this it is possible for someone to not be aware of the differences because the brain is filling in the missing pieces. I look to the day when the state of the brain can be directly measured (we are closing in on that) and when we can determine when the brain is doing less work, is more relaxed with one DUT over another bypassing the translation from what someone thinks they are hearing.

No need to look to such day. There already are measuring devices for measuring sound that's too small / low for humans to hear. Anything we hear and beyond will show up.

 

[planet10]

That statement definitely helps to define your biases.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

That statement definitely helps to define your biases.

What is that statement? Please use quote to point out. Thank you.

 

[planet10]

There already are measuring devices for measuring sound that's too small / low for humans to hear.

There may be, but how come they are not being used? Because there are certainly things being heard that aren’t being measured.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

There may be,

No, not may be, there are.

but how come they are not being used?

Your question is strange. Have you searched for this and couldn't find any and therefore you concluded that they are not being used?

Because there are certainly things being heard that aren’t being measured.

What are examples of things (sound waves) being heard that aren't being measured? And who is supposed to measure them but aren't doing it? BTW, is it not being measured even though they (whoever they are) can because of the laziness or it's not being measured because it's not measurable with any devices?

 

[Evenharmonics]

If you can’t figure that out then you are lost.

dave

I'm not sure who you are responding to since you didn't quote anyone. But while reading your posts about things being heard that aren’t being measured, I just remembered the question I asked you while ago. Still no answer.

 

[planet10]

What are examples of things

Hard to elucidate. But one example: How do you measure how well a system presents a 3D image/soundstage?

To quote Floyd Toole:

Two ears and a brain are massively more analytical and adaptable than an omnidirectional microphone and an analyzer.

and Jonathan Novick, Audio Precision

Not all that matters can be measured, Not all that can be measured, matters.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

Hard to elucidate. But one example: How do you measure how well a system presents a 3D image/soundstage?

Have you forgotten your own question and explanation given before?

To quote Floyd Toole:

Two ears and a brain are massively more analytical and adaptable than an omnidirectional microphone and an analyzer.

and Jonathan Novick, Audio Precision

Not all that matters can be measured, Not all that can be measured, matters.

dave

Have you forgotten that you were talking about sound (as in sound waves traveling through air) that people can hear but allegedly cannot be measured?

 

[planet10]

Have you forgotten that you were talking about sound (as in sound waves traveling through air) that people can hear but allegedly cannot be measured?

That is indeed what both these guys are talking about so i don’t see your point.

dave

 

[picowallspeaker]

Yes, if you are referring to audio as in live performance. As for electronic audio replay system, there are technical standards to follow if one wants high fidelity.

Wrong ! As Scott wrote :

As I said, that statement has no meaning without a context of time and place. Extrapolating it to I/we will never be able to measure it or more accurately be able to interpret measurements we already know how to take to explain what we hear is absurd.

[snip measurements]
during a live event we are there! ---> time and place
During the listening of a recorded event what do we hear ?
Something (....) happened in a distant time and a different place, so we miss these two informations.

So it's quite the opposite: during a live performance the "when" and "where" are more or less regulated by our senses; the reproduction stage is more complex. It has 100 years history so after all we're only at its origins.

 

[Evenharmonics]

That is indeed what both these guys are talking about so i don’t see your point.

I don't see your point of bringing that up when debating sound and measurement.

 

[planet10]

It would seem that we are not currently measuring this correctly or we are interpreting our existing measurements incorrectly?

That certainly seems to be our current situation.

dave

 

[planet10]

I don't see your point of bringing that up when debating sound and measurement.

Two experts on the subject talking about music/sound & measurement.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

Two experts on the subject talking about music/sound & measurement.

But your quotes of them weren't about sound & measurement.

 

[planet10]

But they are.

dave

 

[Evenharmonics]

But they are.

Are you saying they stated that there are sound waves (traveling through air) people can hear that cannot be measured? If so, why haven't you posted examples of those after all these months? After all, you've claimed that there are lots of those.

 

[planet10]

Are you saying they stated that there are sound waves (traveling through air) people can hear that cannot be measured?

Yes.

dave