I suppose one could look on this in an entirely different way.
The high end manufacturers have known for a long time that they aren't going to reinvent the wheel. The basic concepts and principles that underline the basic performance of audio products has been known for quite some time and by this I am referring to objective measurements.
Now whether or not one wishes to debate the objective = the subjective is a different matter.
Somewhere along the line though, the audiophile turns into an engineer and starts to think in a more objective manner as he or she starts to design their own products. After all, you have to refer to the simulators, the measurement suits and the multimeters to ensure that your designs are working effectively. Snake oil doesn't have any say in this, no matter what you might have believed before hand.
After a point, however, it turns into personal preference; that is, what you prefer to design around and this should come after you've become aware of the majority of the ways in which something can be done, (ie you might prefer EF output stages or CF, or EF triples etc). No doubt your personal preference will have a logical reason behind it and no doubt, you could easily spin off some technobabble for marketing to exploit to help sell your product.
What's inside the case might not cost a fortune to produce, but you'd also realise that if you package it well and by this I mean make it a statement object that supposed to be a thing of beauty. Then people with deep wallets will buy it and they will be happier for that fact too.
Who am I to complain? If I had a wallet as deep as that, I'd probably buy some ridiculously priced things too. (Not hifi mind you, I'd still want to make that myself).
No one in this really loses, except for the poorer audiophile who organises his life around being able to purchase ridiculously priced audiophile bling. But then this isn't any different to buying a car you can't really afford and plenty of people go for that.
It's just that on this side of the fence we realise and possibly shun the idea of what high end audio represents. But then you have to remember that the majority of the public are completely ignorant towards it and in this case ignorance really is bliss. It is also possible however that the idiot who purchased the £10,000 100wpc integrated could turn around and say to you, "ya what? you spent how much on a frickin' painting of a depressed looking woman?, here come listen to my hifi and have some fun."
The high end manufacturers have known for a long time that they aren't going to reinvent the wheel. The basic concepts and principles that underline the basic performance of audio products has been known for quite some time and by this I am referring to objective measurements.
Now whether or not one wishes to debate the objective = the subjective is a different matter.
Somewhere along the line though, the audiophile turns into an engineer and starts to think in a more objective manner as he or she starts to design their own products. After all, you have to refer to the simulators, the measurement suits and the multimeters to ensure that your designs are working effectively. Snake oil doesn't have any say in this, no matter what you might have believed before hand.
After a point, however, it turns into personal preference; that is, what you prefer to design around and this should come after you've become aware of the majority of the ways in which something can be done, (ie you might prefer EF output stages or CF, or EF triples etc). No doubt your personal preference will have a logical reason behind it and no doubt, you could easily spin off some technobabble for marketing to exploit to help sell your product.
What's inside the case might not cost a fortune to produce, but you'd also realise that if you package it well and by this I mean make it a statement object that supposed to be a thing of beauty. Then people with deep wallets will buy it and they will be happier for that fact too.
Who am I to complain? If I had a wallet as deep as that, I'd probably buy some ridiculously priced things too. (Not hifi mind you, I'd still want to make that myself).
No one in this really loses, except for the poorer audiophile who organises his life around being able to purchase ridiculously priced audiophile bling. But then this isn't any different to buying a car you can't really afford and plenty of people go for that.
It's just that on this side of the fence we realise and possibly shun the idea of what high end audio represents. But then you have to remember that the majority of the public are completely ignorant towards it and in this case ignorance really is bliss. It is also possible however that the idiot who purchased the £10,000 100wpc integrated could turn around and say to you, "ya what? you spent how much on a frickin' painting of a depressed looking woman?, here come listen to my hifi and have some fun."
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Yes but none of those things are really expensive unless they are packaged up in a fancy box and sold for megabucks then they become part of the hi-end gimmickry !!
In our perception as consumers, "High-end" is the big ticket, small but high profile guys that do make a big noise about their fancy stuff. I think the O/P suggests these guys don't innovate any more. You don't seem to be disagreeing there.
OTOH, some Asian sellers like to label anything they sell that is retro or quirky as "high-end". Dunno about that...it's usually junk like any $39.95 amplifier is likely to be.
It has been said over and over in this thread, but it bears repeating. "Don't blame the High End companies, blame the consumer." This stuff really is market driven.
I go to a lot of audio shows, have even exhibited in a few. In my rooms you could buy the entire system (source, amp, speakers, cables) for the price of an interconnect or power cord in some rooms. That is not an exaggeration.
And many audiophiles do respond to great value for money, at least judging by the praise and thanks we got. But I can tell you, it's the bling that draws the crowds. The bigger, fancier, more expensive, more exotic it is, the more it draws. And the more it draws jealous comments, too.
There seems to be a nervousness and insecurity in many audiophile minds. "Is it good enough?" "Do I have the best stuff?" "If it didn't cost $$$, then it can't be good enough can it?" "But if it costs this much, it must be good." etc, etc. Can you blame the manufacturers and marketing folks for hopping onto that train?
Joe Audiophile is NOT going to buy mass market stuff, it's not his style. Mass market audio (at least electronics) is a great value for money. Almost unbelievable so. But it's so ordinary. I don't drive a Chevrolet or a Toyota, or a minivan, as good as they may be - they are too ordinary.. Every grandma has one. I want something that says "ME!"
High End audio is like that. It's market driven. Overpriced, but still market driven. Some of it is actually pretty good.
I go to a lot of audio shows, have even exhibited in a few. In my rooms you could buy the entire system (source, amp, speakers, cables) for the price of an interconnect or power cord in some rooms. That is not an exaggeration.
And many audiophiles do respond to great value for money, at least judging by the praise and thanks we got. But I can tell you, it's the bling that draws the crowds. The bigger, fancier, more expensive, more exotic it is, the more it draws. And the more it draws jealous comments, too.
There seems to be a nervousness and insecurity in many audiophile minds. "Is it good enough?" "Do I have the best stuff?" "If it didn't cost $$$, then it can't be good enough can it?" "But if it costs this much, it must be good." etc, etc. Can you blame the manufacturers and marketing folks for hopping onto that train?
Joe Audiophile is NOT going to buy mass market stuff, it's not his style. Mass market audio (at least electronics) is a great value for money. Almost unbelievable so. But it's so ordinary. I don't drive a Chevrolet or a Toyota, or a minivan, as good as they may be - they are too ordinary.. Every grandma has one. I want something that says "ME!"
High End audio is like that. It's market driven. Overpriced, but still market driven. Some of it is actually pretty good.
'Couldn't agree more but how many DIY tightwads will fork out $10,000
for an amp? Sure there are a lot of well-heeled dudes out there where the looks and label make the equipment just another fine acquisition for Joe.
The question seems to me to be whether the industry is now led technically from the mass market or High-end. It was once clearly the High-end but newer technologies have been passing direct to the professional and mass markets. High-end, for all the necessary bling and hoop-la, looks to be technically static. Counting in the retro trends to ancient technologies, you have to seriously doubt the technical importance of the high-end industry, perhaps since around 1990.
I hate to say it, but it is almost impossible to make a 'World Class' POWERFUL power amp that will RETAIL for less than $10,000. I know, because I design one. The same might be for an automobile to be considered high performance for less than $50,000. In fact, I just got 'edged out' in the Feb. 2011 issue of 'Stereophile' in a listening comparison against a $55,000 design.
Some here might think that the opinions are faked, but they are not. At CES, I heard several amps that sounded 'better' to my best commercial design. Well, back to the drawing board, I do NOT like to come in second, BUT I am honest enough with myself to know the differences between amps, and that I still have to do better.
Some here might think that the opinions are faked, but they are not. At CES, I heard several amps that sounded 'better' to my best commercial design. Well, back to the drawing board, I do NOT like to come in second, BUT I am honest enough with myself to know the differences between amps, and that I still have to do better.
I don't see that its necessary to blame either of them. They feed off each other and its all good entertainment.
Yes, I've been to shows too, and I agree.
No, I don't blame them. Neither do I blame the insecurities of the audiophiles which most certainly are the reason they'll shell out wads of dosh for audio bling.
Yes, that's the very essence of marketing. Developing brands which permit self-expression amongst their consumers.
Audiophile companies do stimulate the market with their BS advertising do they not? To that degree at the very least, its not totally market driven.
We are blaming human inefficiency (stupidity) in general, we have developed a great ability to seek happiness in inefficient ways and waste a lot of natural resources and kilojoules (and of our own life time and work) in the process.
Some people have developed a great ability to get profit from other people's inefficiency too, but this is not the way to go either.
High end has much more to do with ego and self esteem than with sound and music.
Some people have developed a great ability to get profit from other people's inefficiency too, but this is not the way to go either.
High end has much more to do with ego and self esteem than with sound and music.
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is that 10K to design or manufacture ??
I can understand that someone would want 10K to design an amp but I can't quite see why it should retail at that price or higher unless it embodies new ideas which yield significant real world improvements. A lot of these 10K and over "high end" amps most likely use traditional circuit designs that were used back in the 70's and 80's.
regards
Trevor
Nothing, I think. He found a very efficient sentence to tell it
But I find more pleasant to interact with other people in an equal to equal basis (love) and share "efficiency tricks" than to get profit from their inefficiency, although it's not often possible.
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I think its possible to do both - you'd interact with your partners in the business and those who won't partner with you get to lose out from their stupidity/inefficiency. I agree its not possible to partner/cooperate with everyone as each person has their own level of awareness - for example people who want to 'bend the rules' tend not to like people who are very straight talking. So people naturally find their own level in business.
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