fdegrove said:Hi,
None of which is any of your doing, I'm sure...
No offense, Shifty,
Oh no, you can only get so far when someone else is showing you. Eventually you'll have to go out and experiment to see what you like best.
It's all subjective when your sitting at the console next to someone with pink hair who's telling you what he wants to hear.
If we all engineered the same what kind of world would we live in.
absolut phase is not absolute nonsense
First, I don`t understand why a snare drum should be or is recorded with two microphones (unless to produce a certain sound) although I do understand that the sound from the 2 sides of the skin (with one MIC inside the drum) must be different.
For instance I think that nobody would record an acoustic guitar from the inside of the resonant corpus as well (though this could produce certain sound effects too) and mix this with the sound taken from the outside. Well, maybe it`s not quite the same and not a directly comparable example but I believe You know what I mean.
When mixing 2 MIC signals from either side of the drum skin, what concerns bass cancellation it seems to me that the relative levels of the MIC-signals do matter much more than which one of the MICs is reversed in polarity. Or do I miss here something....?
IMO a simple test as one I participated at the High-End show in Frankfurt (don`t remember anymore when it was but long time ago anyway) adresses this more correctly.
They played different tracks with recordings from a solo bass drum and bass drum with other instruments over a good system.
The polarity of absolute phase of the recording was known.
They played the tracks with correct absolute phase respectively with the phase reversed electronically at the signal source (not acoustically as with a second mic at the other side of a drum skin!). The reversed polarity switching was done in a way that the electronic circuit in the signal path was not more complex as with correct phase (as this could have negatively affected the validity of the results).
I clearly heard a difference (to my very surprise), even when only the solo bass drum was played. I even thought one of two polarity versions of a track not only sounded different but somehow "better" .
At the beginning of the test they had handed out a question form to each participant where one could have marked which version (A or B) of the individual tracks is prefered (of course we did not know the actual absolute phase polarity of the individual tracks prior the test) .
Unfortunately we had to go before the results were disclosed. Would have been very interesting to know wether the tracks I actually prefered (and what did hear the others) were the one with correct or reversed polarity and wether I prefered the same polarity always.
First, I don`t understand why a snare drum should be or is recorded with two microphones (unless to produce a certain sound) although I do understand that the sound from the 2 sides of the skin (with one MIC inside the drum) must be different.
For instance I think that nobody would record an acoustic guitar from the inside of the resonant corpus as well (though this could produce certain sound effects too) and mix this with the sound taken from the outside. Well, maybe it`s not quite the same and not a directly comparable example but I believe You know what I mean.
I don`t see what bass cancellation has to do which one of the MIC`s polarity is inverted as long as one MIC is inverted at all.
When mixing 2 MIC signals from either side of the drum skin, what concerns bass cancellation it seems to me that the relative levels of the MIC-signals do matter much more than which one of the MICs is reversed in polarity. Or do I miss here something....?
I know that absolute phase in the replay system does matter but I don`t think that Your given example with 2 mics placed on either side of a snare-drum skin adresses the absolute phase issue in the replay system validly.
IMO a simple test as one I participated at the High-End show in Frankfurt (don`t remember anymore when it was but long time ago anyway) adresses this more correctly.
They played different tracks with recordings from a solo bass drum and bass drum with other instruments over a good system.
The polarity of absolute phase of the recording was known.
They played the tracks with correct absolute phase respectively with the phase reversed electronically at the signal source (not acoustically as with a second mic at the other side of a drum skin!). The reversed polarity switching was done in a way that the electronic circuit in the signal path was not more complex as with correct phase (as this could have negatively affected the validity of the results).
I clearly heard a difference (to my very surprise), even when only the solo bass drum was played. I even thought one of two polarity versions of a track not only sounded different but somehow "better" .
At the beginning of the test they had handed out a question form to each participant where one could have marked which version (A or B) of the individual tracks is prefered (of course we did not know the actual absolute phase polarity of the individual tracks prior the test) .
Unfortunately we had to go before the results were disclosed. Would have been very interesting to know wether the tracks I actually prefered (and what did hear the others) were the one with correct or reversed polarity and wether I prefered the same polarity always.
Since we are showing off some pictures....
That's me during one of the coolest sessions I got to engineer. I think it was 1999.
That's me during one of the coolest sessions I got to engineer. I think it was 1999.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: absolut phase is not absolute nonsense
This is actually fairly common. Acoustic guitars often have a piezo pressure sensitive pickup built into the bridge. The problem is that the piezo pickup by itself tends to sound overly bright (even a bit brittle). The solution is to mount a small condensor mic inside the body and mix until you get the desired sound.
Fishman makes a couple of "Blender" preamps designed for this exact purpose http://www.fishman.com/products/index.asp
It is also not uncommon to use two or even three mics when recording acoustic guitar in the studio .
Phil
cocolino said:
This is actually fairly common. Acoustic guitars often have a piezo pressure sensitive pickup built into the bridge. The problem is that the piezo pickup by itself tends to sound overly bright (even a bit brittle). The solution is to mount a small condensor mic inside the body and mix until you get the desired sound.
Fishman makes a couple of "Blender" preamps designed for this exact purpose http://www.fishman.com/products/index.asp
It is also not uncommon to use two or even three mics when recording acoustic guitar in the studio .
Phil
Re: Re: Since we are showing off some pictures....
No, it's a one of a kind Auditronics. Circa 1984. It's the last recording console Auditronics made before they decided to go exclusively broadcast. It carries serial number 001 and I understand there was never a second one made. True 24 buss in-line design. Has early Allison automation. Sounds on par with opamp based Neve designs. It has 5532 and 353 opamps on the cards and Jensen transformers on all outputs.
Not the most desireable vintage console, but a decent sounding and flexible tool nevertheless.
PassFan said:
Who's the young guy?
What kind of console is that? It's not an older Neve is it? I ran into one of those down here in the home shopping clubs network facility. They found it and sent it out to be refurbished. It sounds great.
No, it's a one of a kind Auditronics. Circa 1984. It's the last recording console Auditronics made before they decided to go exclusively broadcast. It carries serial number 001 and I understand there was never a second one made. True 24 buss in-line design. Has early Allison automation. Sounds on par with opamp based Neve designs. It has 5532 and 353 opamps on the cards and Jensen transformers on all outputs.
Not the most desireable vintage console, but a decent sounding and flexible tool nevertheless.
Re: absolut phase is not absolute nonsense
That was exactly my first thought. Shows how little I know about what really happens in the recording studio. Also makes you wonder about wanting to have a natural/accurate sounding system, if none of the recorded instruments are actually what they "really sound like" but rather what the engineers or producers thought sounded best.
I always knew there was a lot of "tweaking" done when recording, but I never realised that it went to this sort of level!!!
I'm now starting to wonder if some of the CD's that I have sound bad due to my system not coping with them, or because they are simply bad!!!
Regards,
Tony.
cocolino said:
That was exactly my first thought. Shows how little I know about what really happens in the recording studio. Also makes you wonder about wanting to have a natural/accurate sounding system, if none of the recorded instruments are actually what they "really sound like" but rather what the engineers or producers thought sounded best.
I always knew there was a lot of "tweaking" done when recording, but I never realised that it went to this sort of level!!!
I'm now starting to wonder if some of the CD's that I have sound bad due to my system not coping with them, or because they are simply bad!!!
Regards,
Tony.
Re: Re: absolut phase is not absolute nonsense
It goes both ways. Some CDs sound awesome because of the artists are just very good and all that the engineer has to do is capture the events faithfully. Some CDs sound awesome because the engineers are very good at what they are doing. They just make the artists (or should I say singing models) sound great (not real, but great nevertheless).
Some CDs sound just so-so or plain bad depending on a lot of factors. Lack of talent on both sides of the window, lack of time, lack of good gear, lack of inspiration, lack of money, lack of communication and all kinds of combinations of all those factors.
One of my personal pet peeves when reading audio related posts, reviews etc. is the assumption that recordings are made to sound "real" .
No, recordings are made to sound "good". What is "good" depends on who you ask. There are as many opinions as styles of music, times the number of producers, and even those opinions vary depending on what is popular at any given time. There are a few cases where "real" equals "good" but that's a great minority.
Believe me, you wouldn't like a lot of artists that you might find good now if you heard them recorded and mixed to sound "real".
Besides, what fun would it be for a creative and artistic person to just capture sound. Audio engineers and producers need to tweak, edit, mix, process, etc. to create art and top the next guy.
Would you like to watch an action movie that was just a stationary camera, one angle view of a set with no edits? That would be "real".
BOOORING!
wintermute said:
It goes both ways. Some CDs sound awesome because of the artists are just very good and all that the engineer has to do is capture the events faithfully. Some CDs sound awesome because the engineers are very good at what they are doing. They just make the artists (or should I say singing models) sound great (not real, but great nevertheless).
Some CDs sound just so-so or plain bad depending on a lot of factors. Lack of talent on both sides of the window, lack of time, lack of good gear, lack of inspiration, lack of money, lack of communication and all kinds of combinations of all those factors.
One of my personal pet peeves when reading audio related posts, reviews etc. is the assumption that recordings are made to sound "real" .
No, recordings are made to sound "good". What is "good" depends on who you ask. There are as many opinions as styles of music, times the number of producers, and even those opinions vary depending on what is popular at any given time. There are a few cases where "real" equals "good" but that's a great minority.
Believe me, you wouldn't like a lot of artists that you might find good now if you heard them recorded and mixed to sound "real".
Besides, what fun would it be for a creative and artistic person to just capture sound. Audio engineers and producers need to tweak, edit, mix, process, etc. to create art and top the next guy.
Would you like to watch an action movie that was just a stationary camera, one angle view of a set with no edits? That would be "real".
BOOORING!
Re: Re: Re: absolut phase is not absolute nonsense
And then ther'es the pink haired guy sitting beside me who wants his snare to sound like a woman standing on her back porch at sunset in the middle of Kansas calling out to her young son...?????
The real trick to engineering is knowing which mic to use to make it sound like you want it to. Consoles sound different as well, and last but not least when the final mix is expected to garner a bit of airplay it will be compressed at the studio to prepare it for broadcast.
Engineers are sought out because of their style or sound. When I think of big band I think of Al Schmidt. You can listen to Als work on Natalie Coles/Unforgetable or Diana Kralls/Look of Love. Sometimes I find myself buying music because of the engineer and not the artist.
That could be a new trend we could start right here at DIY.
Thunau said:
And then ther'es the pink haired guy sitting beside me who wants his snare to sound like a woman standing on her back porch at sunset in the middle of Kansas calling out to her young son...?????
The real trick to engineering is knowing which mic to use to make it sound like you want it to. Consoles sound different as well, and last but not least when the final mix is expected to garner a bit of airplay it will be compressed at the studio to prepare it for broadcast.
Engineers are sought out because of their style or sound. When I think of big band I think of Al Schmidt. You can listen to Als work on Natalie Coles/Unforgetable or Diana Kralls/Look of Love. Sometimes I find myself buying music because of the engineer and not the artist.
That could be a new trend we could start right here at DIY.
Yes I remember the first time I saw a live band and thought "these guys don't sound anything like they do on their albums, and was quite disapointed".
I also remember seeing something on telly years ago about a guy who recorded a song. He played all the instruments and sang, and it showed how each was recorded and then mixed, was quite an eye opener.
All very good points.....
Sorry for getting a bit off topic here.
Regards,
Tony.
I also remember seeing something on telly years ago about a guy who recorded a song. He played all the instruments and sang, and it showed how each was recorded and then mixed, was quite an eye opener.
All very good points.....
Sorry for getting a bit off topic here.
Regards,
Tony.
Re: Re: Since we are showing off some pictures....
Yes, but my "assitant engineer" knows more about music and can play guitar pretty well.
In case you don't recognise the man (you could be a bit too young or just not care for his music), that's Steve Howe of Yes beside me.
mrfeedback said:
My assistant engineer (GF) is a whole lot better looking than your assistant engineer.
Eric.
Yes, but my "assitant engineer" knows more about music and can play guitar pretty well.
In case you don't recognise the man (you could be a bit too young or just not care for his music), that's Steve Howe of Yes beside me.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My GF can be quite picky about sound and is not backward in coming forward in saying so.Thunau said:Yes, but my "assistant engineer" knows more about music and can play guitar pretty well.
In case you don't recognise the man (you could be a bit too young or just not care for his music), that's Steve Howe of Yes beside me.
She listens in terms of pleasing overall sound and bop factor and if her hips are moving I know she is happy with the bass.
If there is any wrong harshness especially in vocals and tops she is quick onto it and will tell me so.
My job is to convert her descriptions and terms into mixing desk movements - a feedback loop of sorts.
I am good friends with the band (and fix and mod all their gear) and Justin and I did some serious equipment tweaks to the PA and worked together in tuning (eq), mixing and critiquing our sound - we got the PA sitting just great quickly, and did not need to do much after that all night except for gain riding solos and reverbs for effect.
We pulled a huge hifi killer sound that had the whole room smiling and dancing - quite a few people came up to the desk and complimented the sound - Justin's smile and thumbs up are genuine.
I have heard plenty of Yes stuff in the past but never got deeply into it, so please pardon me for not recognising your colleague/mentor ?.
What was the project that you two worked on ?, and what kinds of things did you learn ?
The band members in the pics are long known in Aus music.
Eric.
Attachments
It was a one evening session. Steve was in town recording tracks at another studio for one of his solo records. A good friend of mine - an awesome percussion player in his own right- asked Steve to guest appear on his album that I was recording. Steve agreed, and I got to work with one of my heroes. Yes was my favorite band as I was growing up and I learned to play a few of their tunes on guitar.
What I learned is what I tried to explain a few posts above. There is no substitution for talent. I didn't have to do much engineering beyond the basics of miking up an amp, dialing in a good headphone mix and running the tape. It came out sounding unmistakable Steve Howe. He played a few takes without listening back between them, came out of the studio and layed out the comp map for me from memory. He was like: " give me the first 3 bars from Take 2, switch to Take 1 for 7 bars, then go to Take 4 for the first part of the lead, and ride it out on the remainder of Take 3." You get the idea. A total pro.
I worked with a few other "big time" musicians, but Steve totally deserves the place he holds in history of Rock music. All in all a great experience.
What I learned is what I tried to explain a few posts above. There is no substitution for talent. I didn't have to do much engineering beyond the basics of miking up an amp, dialing in a good headphone mix and running the tape. It came out sounding unmistakable Steve Howe. He played a few takes without listening back between them, came out of the studio and layed out the comp map for me from memory. He was like: " give me the first 3 bars from Take 2, switch to Take 1 for 7 bars, then go to Take 4 for the first part of the lead, and ride it out on the remainder of Take 3." You get the idea. A total pro.
I worked with a few other "big time" musicians, but Steve totally deserves the place he holds in history of Rock music. All in all a great experience.
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