John
I am not at all contrary to what you state, nor have my interests changed; I am simply talking about what would work commercially, and make for great solutions for ALL the builders out there... I do not think Adire is looking at "a" driver, rather looking at a LINE of drivers to flesh out Hemp Acoustics offerings.
Put another way, if they don't come out with a sweet driver for OB, and by sweet I am thinking a 12 inch of some stripe. I completely agree with you on the matter of the B200, but there isnt any alternative, so if no optimized "proper" OB driver comes from le cuisine chez Wiggins, then I have no other choice but to try the Tone Tubby 12, which is a guitar speaker, a $280 guitar speaker after all, but a HEMP coned guitar speaker with fairly high Q great SPL, and ~can work on OB, ...possibly well. I have even spoken to A Broun Sound, and those guys are dyed in the wool prog. rockers, getting road cases from the stars all the time. ie: this chap had zero f***ing idea what I was talking about on the matter of OB. Our OB thing is sooo far out on the fringe to their thinking that, well, there it is. Ideally, I would like to see LOTS OF DRIVERS with hemp cones and XBL motors. Beyond that, what I would like to implement in a unrestricted OB set up is completely out, because I live in a condo, whose location is soooo perfect that full scale OB is the loser here.
So, DW, Please make a nice 12" of widebandwidth for OB, among other treats.
I am not at all contrary to what you state, nor have my interests changed; I am simply talking about what would work commercially, and make for great solutions for ALL the builders out there... I do not think Adire is looking at "a" driver, rather looking at a LINE of drivers to flesh out Hemp Acoustics offerings.
Put another way, if they don't come out with a sweet driver for OB, and by sweet I am thinking a 12 inch of some stripe. I completely agree with you on the matter of the B200, but there isnt any alternative, so if no optimized "proper" OB driver comes from le cuisine chez Wiggins, then I have no other choice but to try the Tone Tubby 12, which is a guitar speaker, a $280 guitar speaker after all, but a HEMP coned guitar speaker with fairly high Q great SPL, and ~can work on OB, ...possibly well. I have even spoken to A Broun Sound, and those guys are dyed in the wool prog. rockers, getting road cases from the stars all the time. ie: this chap had zero f***ing idea what I was talking about on the matter of OB. Our OB thing is sooo far out on the fringe to their thinking that, well, there it is. Ideally, I would like to see LOTS OF DRIVERS with hemp cones and XBL motors. Beyond that, what I would like to implement in a unrestricted OB set up is completely out, because I live in a condo, whose location is soooo perfect that full scale OB is the loser here.
So, DW, Please make a nice 12" of widebandwidth for OB, among other treats.
Dan,
I understand that we're just a poor stepchild. Great for OB means great for the rear deck in cars too, although I want bigger than what normally fits there in a car.
I may be greedy, but what I want doesn't exist. All this high end DIY stuff is just a niche market anyway. To me it makes business sense to come up with a new driver that would have no competition instead of just being one of many choices for boxes. OB's are only going to gain popularity. The sonics just can't be denied. The lack of bass without big consoles is the only reason they disappeared from the market. Using unexplored techniques, bass is now possible even with a minimalist approach. I've proven that. Plus electronics are so cheap, that a simple electronic approach can give you bass in a small OB package. The only limiting factor now is the driver, because there isn't one.
OB's have the potential for going mainstream with the right approach. You and I know that they're sonically better. That may or may no show as well in a store situation, except when you compare a box on one channel and an OB on the other and pan left and right. The difference is night and day doing that and is a great sales tool. Another situation the speakers are for a teenager or the buyer otherwise doesn't want to disturb the rest of the house (baby sleeping, thin walled apartments, whatever). Listen on axis....great bass. Listen off axis almost none. Then compare it to a box and explain how the sound stays where you want it to with OB, and doesn't disturb others. That's another great selling tool.
My attitude is that I have something better, so I want to share it with the world. How many speakers do you know of that have distinct, objective, and very audible selling points?.......NONE. Look at what Bose has done with just gimmickery and imagine what can be done with something tangible. How many people across the world have to ask their partner "what did he/she say" when watching on their HT rig because the expensive boxes they have aren't as good at dialogue as most TV's, because TV's have IB speakers with drivers operating naturally and freely?
I understand that we're just a poor stepchild. Great for OB means great for the rear deck in cars too, although I want bigger than what normally fits there in a car.
I may be greedy, but what I want doesn't exist. All this high end DIY stuff is just a niche market anyway. To me it makes business sense to come up with a new driver that would have no competition instead of just being one of many choices for boxes. OB's are only going to gain popularity. The sonics just can't be denied. The lack of bass without big consoles is the only reason they disappeared from the market. Using unexplored techniques, bass is now possible even with a minimalist approach. I've proven that. Plus electronics are so cheap, that a simple electronic approach can give you bass in a small OB package. The only limiting factor now is the driver, because there isn't one.
OB's have the potential for going mainstream with the right approach. You and I know that they're sonically better. That may or may no show as well in a store situation, except when you compare a box on one channel and an OB on the other and pan left and right. The difference is night and day doing that and is a great sales tool. Another situation the speakers are for a teenager or the buyer otherwise doesn't want to disturb the rest of the house (baby sleeping, thin walled apartments, whatever). Listen on axis....great bass. Listen off axis almost none. Then compare it to a box and explain how the sound stays where you want it to with OB, and doesn't disturb others. That's another great selling tool.
My attitude is that I have something better, so I want to share it with the world. How many speakers do you know of that have distinct, objective, and very audible selling points?.......NONE. Look at what Bose has done with just gimmickery and imagine what can be done with something tangible. How many people across the world have to ask their partner "what did he/she say" when watching on their HT rig because the expensive boxes they have aren't as good at dialogue as most TV's, because TV's have IB speakers with drivers operating naturally and freely?
dmason said:The only speakers I know of with those traits, frankly, are the DarkStars.J.B. calls his "the career-wrecker." Full range dipole/open baffle.
I meant mainstream speakers. You guys have had almost a year, why aren't you mainstream yet ? I want to be in every high end shop and available to HT installers during the first year, with the cast frame driver, beautiful finish, etc.. Then by the end of the summer '07 have cheaper to construct models in Best Buy, etc., all with a unique sales approach that differentiates and justifies the Bose comparable higher price.
"why aren't you mainstream yet?"
It was never more than a project that got out of hand when people wouldn't take no for an answer with regard to building some for them. It was ALOT of work during the summer, that leached the fun out of it all. I also found my thing, the one with the beeper and patients got in the way.
But I am with you entirely, if in spirit. Your description is of a drool magnet that plays music.
It was never more than a project that got out of hand when people wouldn't take no for an answer with regard to building some for them. It was ALOT of work during the summer, that leached the fun out of it all. I also found my thing, the one with the beeper and patients got in the way.
But I am with you entirely, if in spirit. Your description is of a drool magnet that plays music.
AJ,
I think we can do a 6" cone that will be clean to 15-16 kHz; I know we can make it damped enough to not have breakup issues, and I know I can keep the inductance down low enough that we'd have response out to the 20 kHz range.
John,
I'll noodle around some ideas about OB drivers. Any ideas about baffle widths?
Dmason,
A 12" driver? I think that can be done. How wide of band do you want it? Off-axis dispersion will suffer above 800-900 Hz, so perhaps an OB woofer with a quality, high efficiency midrange above it?
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®
I think we can do a 6" cone that will be clean to 15-16 kHz; I know we can make it damped enough to not have breakup issues, and I know I can keep the inductance down low enough that we'd have response out to the 20 kHz range.
John,
I'll noodle around some ideas about OB drivers. Any ideas about baffle widths?
Dmason,
A 12" driver? I think that can be done. How wide of band do you want it? Off-axis dispersion will suffer above 800-900 Hz, so perhaps an OB woofer with a quality, high efficiency midrange above it?
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio®
Dan
Thanks so much for being right in on this, it means alot to us....if you saw where I was writing this from...
A 12 with as wide a useable band would be tasty. Q and Xmax for OB use, on OB as woofer, it would be pretty well done by 300Hz anyway. Qe with the above described 6.5 in mind, in a very simple Quasar-esque two way ALL hemp. An outstanding 6.5 with that which you suggest would be killer. A GreenStar!
Thanks so much for being right in on this, it means alot to us....if you saw where I was writing this from...
A 12 with as wide a useable band would be tasty. Q and Xmax for OB use, on OB as woofer, it would be pretty well done by 300Hz anyway. Qe with the above described 6.5 in mind, in a very simple Quasar-esque two way ALL hemp. An outstanding 6.5 with that which you suggest would be killer. A GreenStar!
DanWiggins said:
Dan,
When a high quality driver manufacturer once existed called Altec Lansing they manufactured a wide range driver that dealt with the HF beaming issues of a large cone by including an anular compliance section that effectively separated the outer diameter of the cone from the inner section so that for high frequencies the cone radiating surface was just a small portion of the total cone area. I suspect the patent for this idea is long expired. Have you considered using this technique to come up with a high efficiency 12" wide range driver as being discussed here?
On another note I am a bit confused and perhaps you can straighten me out. Iis Hemp a trademark for the new line of drivers or is it the material with which the cones are made, or both? Is it your own brand or is it someone else's fo which you are acting as designer/supplier?
DanWiggins said:
Dan,
With a 10-12" driver the front will be only just wide enough to fit the driver. In terms of an Fequal point, of course I want to go as low as possible but I don't believe that can really be predicted ahead of time, because if you cause the OB response ripples to occur in the wrong places it can sound bad.
For example, with the Hawthorne 15" coax (Qts .91, Fs 42) I shot for a 72hz free space Fequal, figuring I could ride boundary effects and an expected rising response near Fs (due to the high Q) far enough down to get good solid bass. It sounded great, but I didn't get the extension I wanted unless the U-Baffle cab was sitting on the floor, so I threw another cab together that was 2" deeper, which should have netted 8hz deeper extension. Instead I got a very very flat and dull sounding speaker. The only thing I can figure that happened is that the change moved the response ripples to just the wrong placement on the musical scale.
I'm looking for a single drive unit solution. I believe I can work with a Qes anywhere in the .70-.90 range. For Qms the higher the better as I've noted a correlation between higher Qms and more natural sound, so minimum of 6 or 7. Fs 40 or lower.
A slightly uptilted IB response would be ideal, because then I can use some backside resistance to help give the horn more loading. That resistance will attenuate the higher frequencies leaving the lower frequency content in the rear wave to help reinforce the front output. It just can't be tilted upward to the extent of the B200 which falls off about 14db between 1200hz and 50hz. I simply can't balance that much differential mechanically with my cab, a 4-6db differential would be perfect as long as it's gradual and a hump near resonance is fine.
Hi Pinkmouse,
Im using these tweeters in my KLS10s. They are quite amazing. thing is I have one that the cat scratched and I have a newborn that is starting to crawl, so Im getting paranoid and wondering if spare parts are available for these. Any idea if I can ge the gold film replaced and if so where would I source the parts.
cheers Arthur
I don't know how I forgot this Dan, but why not a hempcone xbl2 motor version of this http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/KITHE10-1.htm crossed more in the 1.5k range (if the CD is robust enough) for better upper midrange performance.
Dynamics, bass and treble quality a single driver simply cannot approach. No need to worry about shout, whizzers and helpers.
cheers,
AJ
Dynamics, bass and treble quality a single driver simply cannot approach. No need to worry about shout, whizzers and helpers.
cheers,
AJ
I, too, will chime in (again) for a coaxial. But please, if you design one, make it small enough to not require an inordinately low crossover before beaming sets in. An 8"er would be great. Such a driver with your CD tweeter and a good crossover, combined with, say, an Eminence Alpha 15 could be the basis for an awesome dipole system.
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