just my two million's woth
Hey: I don't usually get into these discussions as I don't want to present a conflect of interest but.... since when was building something for a small amount and marketing (selling) it for a fortune a bad thing? I kinda thought that was the whole point of the game? Not to mention the time effort and thought that goes into any product. Maybe some people think that is (intelectual effort) not worth anything? Oh I forgot if you buy it or borrow it and can take it apart and send it back in one piece (maybe) get your money back and copy it for next to nothing that is a good thing. Perhaps even better if you can then go on line and tell the world that the jerk that makes this is ripping everybody off and here is how he does it. This is not any different than making a great wine or beer. Anybody can make wine or beer, they can even drink it. But you all know that if you want great wine or beer right now right here well that is going to cost you a little more.
Profit is not a dirty word! No one twists your arm and forces you to buy anything! If you really want to get pissed off about something take a look at the price of a family sized box of Rice Crispy's the next time you go shopping! That's a box of puffed rice for God's sake. Snap crackle pop. Sorry for the long rant but come on people. If a product is a good one and it stands the test of time and competition the it is worth what ever the manufacturer wants for it. Should the price be too high and the market rejects it for a less expensive one then the company either lowers the price or goes out of business. Time could be spent in a more valuable way experimenting with your own ideas. But in case that is too much like work for you you can always go and buy something in your price range. That's exactly what I do all the time. Best regards Moray James.
Hey: I don't usually get into these discussions as I don't want to present a conflect of interest but.... since when was building something for a small amount and marketing (selling) it for a fortune a bad thing? I kinda thought that was the whole point of the game? Not to mention the time effort and thought that goes into any product. Maybe some people think that is (intelectual effort) not worth anything? Oh I forgot if you buy it or borrow it and can take it apart and send it back in one piece (maybe) get your money back and copy it for next to nothing that is a good thing. Perhaps even better if you can then go on line and tell the world that the jerk that makes this is ripping everybody off and here is how he does it. This is not any different than making a great wine or beer. Anybody can make wine or beer, they can even drink it. But you all know that if you want great wine or beer right now right here well that is going to cost you a little more.
Profit is not a dirty word! No one twists your arm and forces you to buy anything! If you really want to get pissed off about something take a look at the price of a family sized box of Rice Crispy's the next time you go shopping! That's a box of puffed rice for God's sake. Snap crackle pop. Sorry for the long rant but come on people. If a product is a good one and it stands the test of time and competition the it is worth what ever the manufacturer wants for it. Should the price be too high and the market rejects it for a less expensive one then the company either lowers the price or goes out of business. Time could be spent in a more valuable way experimenting with your own ideas. But in case that is too much like work for you you can always go and buy something in your price range. That's exactly what I do all the time. Best regards Moray James.
That was the best post ever Moray James. We need more posts like yours.
I think cable differences are more noticeable on headphones. Go tell those Sennheiser HD650 owners who recabled their headphones that their cable upgrade made no audible difference and they'll look at you as if you just failed to convert them into your religion.
I think cable differences are more noticeable on headphones. Go tell those Sennheiser HD650 owners who recabled their headphones that their cable upgrade made no audible difference and they'll look at you as if you just failed to convert them into your religion.
Geez Jan
I guess that you don't eat pop corn at the movies either. The choice to buy or not to buy is free I just don't see your problem. Is the onus on me to prove to you why or how any product does or does not work? If Dan at Krell uses the same transistors that you do in his amp but charges more is that a crime? If I spend the time and the money to cryo treat my product but you don't believe that it makes any difference am I wrong to do so? You are not wrong to believe what ever you want so what about me? If the consumer sees value and buys it is the consumer wrong? Somebody said that the customer is always right. I happen to think that after all these years the Pocket Fisherman is still a really cool product. Good night. Best regards Moray James.
I guess that you don't eat pop corn at the movies either. The choice to buy or not to buy is free I just don't see your problem. Is the onus on me to prove to you why or how any product does or does not work? If Dan at Krell uses the same transistors that you do in his amp but charges more is that a crime? If I spend the time and the money to cryo treat my product but you don't believe that it makes any difference am I wrong to do so? You are not wrong to believe what ever you want so what about me? If the consumer sees value and buys it is the consumer wrong? Somebody said that the customer is always right. I happen to think that after all these years the Pocket Fisherman is still a really cool product. Good night. Best regards Moray James.
Re: Geez Jan
No, its not a crime to charge whatever the market (read: the phools) will bear. But again and again in these discussions people become outrageous if someone states convincingly that the emporer has no clothes on. Nobody has problems paying 100 grand for a Porsche Cayenne (if they have it, and if they want it), but if it is easily beaten on the highway by, say, a Chrysler Neon, people get pissed off. The point is that that Porsche really gives you value for money, while many exorbitant cables don't in that sense.
It also does bring up another interesting point. If you market a product, and you sell it for a particular purpose or with a particular way of working, KNOWING FULLY WELL THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS UNTRUE, is that OK? Or are you then crossing the limits of legitimite business doing? I don't think this is the case in ALL cable stories, so I'm not faulting manufacturers, but as a principle? Or is it 'anything goes' in advertising, lies and all?
And I DO eat pop corn at the movies (salted, not sweetened), thanks.
Jan Didden
moray james said:
No, its not a crime to charge whatever the market (read: the phools) will bear. But again and again in these discussions people become outrageous if someone states convincingly that the emporer has no clothes on. Nobody has problems paying 100 grand for a Porsche Cayenne (if they have it, and if they want it), but if it is easily beaten on the highway by, say, a Chrysler Neon, people get pissed off. The point is that that Porsche really gives you value for money, while many exorbitant cables don't in that sense.
It also does bring up another interesting point. If you market a product, and you sell it for a particular purpose or with a particular way of working, KNOWING FULLY WELL THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS UNTRUE, is that OK? Or are you then crossing the limits of legitimite business doing? I don't think this is the case in ALL cable stories, so I'm not faulting manufacturers, but as a principle? Or is it 'anything goes' in advertising, lies and all?
And I DO eat pop corn at the movies (salted, not sweetened), thanks.
Jan Didden
Jan Jan
Jan: you design and build electronics, I would have thought that over all the years you have seen all this again and again. Somebody measures you amp and says that it measures exactly the same as the one in his pocket radio that cost ten bucks. He says that since they measure the same then they must sound the same and how can you want so much for your amp when you can't even show any difference? So you take everything that you know and believe about the circuit and attempt to explain why those things do make a difference. No sucess as he then cites a designer of some standing who totally disagrees about the how and why of the working of your circuit. Now you are at an advantage here since you have much experience and training. But as in all fields theories change simply bcause that is exactly what they are theories. What you go by untill you find a better more complete theory. I believe that that is exactly what you should do because it pushes the leading edge of understanding. That however is not the only way that things can be learned and developed. I believe that with docummented research even at the level of forums like this one that is of great benefit to others as they then have a common ground to go forward from. But again it's not the only way. I don't have extensive training in the electronics field, wish that I did but that dosen't have to stop me from working in that field. There is of course a very big disadvantage in working in this fashon but I can still develope something good even if I could not tell you what an electron is or know what ohms law is. I don't have the answers but I can hear and I can think.
I don't know what your thoughts are about such things as say power cords in audio systems. However if you don't think that they can not make any possible difference then I would be happy to send you one of mine to listen to as long as you send it back when you are done. Then you can say what ever you like about it. I get the impression that you don't believe me and that's fine but if you listen to one of my cords and tell me that you did not hear any difference then I won't believe you. So at that point in time we just have to disagree about the whole thing and that is fine too. What we each believe does not have to change what the other believes but sometimes it might and that is when things tend to get interesting. Very best regards Moray James.
Jan: you design and build electronics, I would have thought that over all the years you have seen all this again and again. Somebody measures you amp and says that it measures exactly the same as the one in his pocket radio that cost ten bucks. He says that since they measure the same then they must sound the same and how can you want so much for your amp when you can't even show any difference? So you take everything that you know and believe about the circuit and attempt to explain why those things do make a difference. No sucess as he then cites a designer of some standing who totally disagrees about the how and why of the working of your circuit. Now you are at an advantage here since you have much experience and training. But as in all fields theories change simply bcause that is exactly what they are theories. What you go by untill you find a better more complete theory. I believe that that is exactly what you should do because it pushes the leading edge of understanding. That however is not the only way that things can be learned and developed. I believe that with docummented research even at the level of forums like this one that is of great benefit to others as they then have a common ground to go forward from. But again it's not the only way. I don't have extensive training in the electronics field, wish that I did but that dosen't have to stop me from working in that field. There is of course a very big disadvantage in working in this fashon but I can still develope something good even if I could not tell you what an electron is or know what ohms law is. I don't have the answers but I can hear and I can think.
I don't know what your thoughts are about such things as say power cords in audio systems. However if you don't think that they can not make any possible difference then I would be happy to send you one of mine to listen to as long as you send it back when you are done. Then you can say what ever you like about it. I get the impression that you don't believe me and that's fine but if you listen to one of my cords and tell me that you did not hear any difference then I won't believe you. So at that point in time we just have to disagree about the whole thing and that is fine too. What we each believe does not have to change what the other believes but sometimes it might and that is when things tend to get interesting. Very best regards Moray James.
Re: Re: Geez Jan
I so wanted to stay out of this one, but as Popeye says, "that's all I can stands, I can't stands no more." Without speaking at all to the audible differences between cables, any disinterested, third party objective look back through the posts on this topic could only conclude it's the 'objectivist' proponents who have acted 'outrageously'. This is a typical example. The posts have been ad hominen, strident and filled with completely unsupported, unscientific and unresearched proclamations on the psychological motivation of those with whom they disagree. Most ironically, it ignores the huge body of evidence presented on this very forum which demonstrates people who are convinced of the differences between passive components are almost universally helpful (even if you consider them delusionally so), open minded to suggestions from others (even if you consider them delusionally so) and do things on shoestring budgets bereft of Porsche bragging rights.
You can't express the general belief that anyone who buys a cable is a 'phool' and anyone who sells them a self-aware charlatan, without presenting a stitch of research, evidence or proof if you also proport to represent the scientific method. It's at best self-contradictory.
janneman said:
I so wanted to stay out of this one, but as Popeye says, "that's all I can stands, I can't stands no more." Without speaking at all to the audible differences between cables, any disinterested, third party objective look back through the posts on this topic could only conclude it's the 'objectivist' proponents who have acted 'outrageously'. This is a typical example. The posts have been ad hominen, strident and filled with completely unsupported, unscientific and unresearched proclamations on the psychological motivation of those with whom they disagree. Most ironically, it ignores the huge body of evidence presented on this very forum which demonstrates people who are convinced of the differences between passive components are almost universally helpful (even if you consider them delusionally so), open minded to suggestions from others (even if you consider them delusionally so) and do things on shoestring budgets bereft of Porsche bragging rights.
You can't express the general belief that anyone who buys a cable is a 'phool' and anyone who sells them a self-aware charlatan, without presenting a stitch of research, evidence or proof if you also proport to represent the scientific method. It's at best self-contradictory.
Well from one point it doesn't make sense to spend money thinking the cable actually makes significant differences in sound (minor maybe, but not significant).
On the other hand, why bash someone who wants a cosmetically nice cable? Plus i don't think the people who buy kilobuck cables care about measurments. Is it any different than buying a 500 dollar audionote capacitor? I do'nt think so.
People in this hobby tend to be a little nuts about their equimpent if some of you haven't noticed! I think it's time to accept this and move on.
On the other hand, why bash someone who wants a cosmetically nice cable? Plus i don't think the people who buy kilobuck cables care about measurments. Is it any different than buying a 500 dollar audionote capacitor? I do'nt think so.
People in this hobby tend to be a little nuts about their equimpent if some of you haven't noticed! I think it's time to accept this and move on.
sardonx said:
Fine. But I get angry when my aging parents are sold $100 interconnects and power conditioners costing even more, not based on evidence that they need or want the product, but rather on nearly fraudulent hype and claims from the guy at the audio store. I think it turns folks off from this fine hobby of ours. (i.e., "I buy a $6,000 home theater and need to spend another $1,000+ on accessories!?!").
I'm fine with audio jewelry, but theres a line between good salesmanship and misrepresentation.
Too many cable pedlers, in my opinion, border more on the misrepresentation side than the salesmanship side.
With all do respect to everyone,
Some of us spent 4 years, or 8 years, or 12 years learning physics, engineering, math etc...
Most of us, that learned the most, are telling those that have learned the least, to stay away from "cables". 12 AWG lamp cord WILL work fine... VERY fine. We do this, because we care about people bent on tube audio who should spend MORE on transformers and figure out how to avoid caps, and use orange drops where their needed.
I will host, and very richly, any one who will bring to their rig to my home. You have to be willing to be submitted to blindfolds.
We will test speaker connections blindly and properly... pure gold versus coathangers and re-bar. You will be the judge... just bilnd. And.... I won't hook up any equipment that might measure input/output! Oh no... don't confuse the issue with facts!
This is B.S. and it has to stop. Many newbies come onto this site looking for truth or knowledge. They may have questions about tube audio.... they may have more innocent questions.
Cable nazies shouldn't be here... at all.
Some of us spent 4 years, or 8 years, or 12 years learning physics, engineering, math etc...
Most of us, that learned the most, are telling those that have learned the least, to stay away from "cables". 12 AWG lamp cord WILL work fine... VERY fine. We do this, because we care about people bent on tube audio who should spend MORE on transformers and figure out how to avoid caps, and use orange drops where their needed.
I will host, and very richly, any one who will bring to their rig to my home. You have to be willing to be submitted to blindfolds.
We will test speaker connections blindly and properly... pure gold versus coathangers and re-bar. You will be the judge... just bilnd. And.... I won't hook up any equipment that might measure input/output! Oh no... don't confuse the issue with facts!
This is B.S. and it has to stop. Many newbies come onto this site looking for truth or knowledge. They may have questions about tube audio.... they may have more innocent questions.
Cable nazies shouldn't be here... at all.
"What we're fighting"? "Cable nazies (sic)"? Sounds more religious than scientific to me.
What about those of us with BASc EE degrees and twenty years experience in audio who don't share your faith? Or the legions of professionals in the music industry who disagree? Have you looked into how a great many pro studios are being wired? It's nowhere near as simple and certain as you guys so firmly believe. The existence of charlatans isn't an argument, they infest every field in which there's a dollar to be made. Casting everyone in the field as a charlatan is neither realistic or productive, it's an unproven and unresearched statement of faith. The discussion is better served by keeping it technical.
What about those of us with BASc EE degrees and twenty years experience in audio who don't share your faith? Or the legions of professionals in the music industry who disagree? Have you looked into how a great many pro studios are being wired? It's nowhere near as simple and certain as you guys so firmly believe. The existence of charlatans isn't an argument, they infest every field in which there's a dollar to be made. Casting everyone in the field as a charlatan is neither realistic or productive, it's an unproven and unresearched statement of faith. The discussion is better served by keeping it technical.
the speaker god says that speaker cables DO matter, and can make a sonic difference. the speaker god has settled this, the real question is whether or not this difference is good or bad. remember that the speaker god can hear anything however subtle, and has the greatest ears in the universe.
Re: Re: Re: Geez Jan
Wow! That's a hell of a post! Rather than verbatim answering it, let me pick those things I find important.
Firstly, the huge body of evidence on this forum isn't. Mostly, it's somebody's of-the-cuff opinion that gets aped.
Secondly, if somebody tells me that buying his 5k cable gives me audio nirwana, is it so unreasonable to expect him/her to give some proof? Aren't you turning things around to expect ME to accept it unless I can prove otherwise??
I don't say that anybody who buys 5k cables is a fool, or that those who sell it are all charlatans. I have no proof for that, as you rightly pointed out. The discussion was in the context that if you sell something and somebody is willing to pay that's all there is, while I brought up the issue of honesty in it. I'm not going to repeat it, read those post if you wish.
People who know me know that I always try to give proof or arguments for my conviction. People who's experience in audio goes beyond ohms law know that when you really dig into it you get into perception and in how a myriad factors (color, shape, peer opinion, price, built or bought etc) determine often more than the objective sound, how a components' sound is perceived or experienced. There is no way around it, that IS researched and documented, in a scientific way, and I have often quoted those and even posted extraxtions of those tests. Examples are Vanderkooy and Tiefenbrunn of Linn fame who couldn't even hear the difference with or without a SONY PCM-1 AD-DA block in series with his preamp chain, and Harman Kardon's speaker tests where speaker ranking dramatically changed when they were sighted or not. But some poster here just clearly state that they refuse to even read it, probably out of fear that they might - ohm forbid - learn something...
What scientific study have YOU got to offer on your mains cords?
Jan Didden
rdf said:
Wow! That's a hell of a post! Rather than verbatim answering it, let me pick those things I find important.
Firstly, the huge body of evidence on this forum isn't. Mostly, it's somebody's of-the-cuff opinion that gets aped.
Secondly, if somebody tells me that buying his 5k cable gives me audio nirwana, is it so unreasonable to expect him/her to give some proof? Aren't you turning things around to expect ME to accept it unless I can prove otherwise??
I don't say that anybody who buys 5k cables is a fool, or that those who sell it are all charlatans. I have no proof for that, as you rightly pointed out. The discussion was in the context that if you sell something and somebody is willing to pay that's all there is, while I brought up the issue of honesty in it. I'm not going to repeat it, read those post if you wish.
People who know me know that I always try to give proof or arguments for my conviction. People who's experience in audio goes beyond ohms law know that when you really dig into it you get into perception and in how a myriad factors (color, shape, peer opinion, price, built or bought etc) determine often more than the objective sound, how a components' sound is perceived or experienced. There is no way around it, that IS researched and documented, in a scientific way, and I have often quoted those and even posted extraxtions of those tests. Examples are Vanderkooy and Tiefenbrunn of Linn fame who couldn't even hear the difference with or without a SONY PCM-1 AD-DA block in series with his preamp chain, and Harman Kardon's speaker tests where speaker ranking dramatically changed when they were sighted or not. But some poster here just clearly state that they refuse to even read it, probably out of fear that they might - ohm forbid - learn something...
What scientific study have YOU got to offer on your mains cords?
Jan Didden
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