Dave, thanks for the advice. What do the Alpair 12's bring to the table?
I ask these questions because I really don't know. I've been doing a lot of reading about loudspeakers lately, and as much as I am learning the biggest thing that I am learning how woefully little I know! Very humbling. That is why I am here, hoping to draw upon the collective experience of those more knowledgeable that I.
So, assuming that I go with something like the Alpair 12's, what sort of cabinet should they go in? What sort of performance should I expect from them?
To be clear to everyone, I am not working to an "ultimate" Hi-Fi unit with this build, but I do want to work to an end that is worthy of the effort.
As for making this thing modular, well Clairtone has already addressed that issue with the G3. I'm not really interested in making that.
The G2 is interesting, too. Slightly sleeker. The Project G was aimed at the luxury, early '60's, cool modern, lifestyle. The G2 was aimed at the swinging younger crowd, and the G3 was the economical choice and a response to the changing market away from console Hi-Fi's towards components.
I want to keep the vibe of the original Project G. I will go with the top access, tambour lid, and speaker globes on the arms. CD will be the primary source, along with radio. I don't use the turntable a lot, but I do use it still, so I will be including it. I expect to run through a receiver, maybe something with a bit of a retro vibe?
I may also put a flat screen TV on the wall above and behind it and put the sound through as well. My son wants his to access his CD collection from a hard drive and operate it via a computer media center. (He could explain it better...)
I ask these questions because I really don't know. I've been doing a lot of reading about loudspeakers lately, and as much as I am learning the biggest thing that I am learning how woefully little I know! Very humbling. That is why I am here, hoping to draw upon the collective experience of those more knowledgeable that I.
So, assuming that I go with something like the Alpair 12's, what sort of cabinet should they go in? What sort of performance should I expect from them?
To be clear to everyone, I am not working to an "ultimate" Hi-Fi unit with this build, but I do want to work to an end that is worthy of the effort.
As for making this thing modular, well Clairtone has already addressed that issue with the G3. I'm not really interested in making that.
The G2 is interesting, too. Slightly sleeker. The Project G was aimed at the luxury, early '60's, cool modern, lifestyle. The G2 was aimed at the swinging younger crowd, and the G3 was the economical choice and a response to the changing market away from console Hi-Fi's towards components.
I want to keep the vibe of the original Project G. I will go with the top access, tambour lid, and speaker globes on the arms. CD will be the primary source, along with radio. I don't use the turntable a lot, but I do use it still, so I will be including it. I expect to run through a receiver, maybe something with a bit of a retro vibe?
I may also put a flat screen TV on the wall above and behind it and put the sound through as well. My son wants his to access his CD collection from a hard drive and operate it via a computer media center. (He could explain it better...)
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I've had some of those G3 speakers thru here...
The Alpair 12 brings a fairly large, very good fullrange driver that will produce decent bass (and the entire rest of the range) in a surprisingly small enclosure (causing me some consternation as i work on a miniOnken-style box for them) and the shape of the basket is very suited to mounting in a sphere. Alunimum cone fits with the theme. Comes in silver or gold too. Might push your budget out further than you'd like. But there are smaller ones too.
dave
The Alpair 12 brings a fairly large, very good fullrange driver that will produce decent bass (and the entire rest of the range) in a surprisingly small enclosure (causing me some consternation as i work on a miniOnken-style box for them) and the shape of the basket is very suited to mounting in a sphere. Alunimum cone fits with the theme. Comes in silver or gold too. Might push your budget out further than you'd like. But there are smaller ones too.
dave
I've looked at domes for single drivers in the past and found acrylic domes easy to work with and give you a fantastic finish. You should start looking for shop fitting suppliers, as they frequently have the moulds and clear hemispheres in stock (or can drape mould in black for you). Display domes can be quite big, need to be perfect, so their tools and level of finish are very good. Acrylic glues well. The other firms that use domes a lot are fountain manufacturers, who can often supply in acrylic, fake stone composite and even stainless steel - and are used to big sizes. I'm based in the UK, but here's someone in the US: SPHERE WATER FOUNTAIN GRANITE and stainless steel SCULPTURE AS WATER FEATURE GRANITE, STAINLESS STEEL AND BRONZE SCULPTURES
I like what I've been reading about the A12's. Not cheap, but then this is a do it right or not at a project.
And it IS longterm. Probably very longterm as I would need to convince my wife that I need to spend that much on on a pair of speaker drivers. Funny, as she's the musician in the family ('cellist). I'm in the middle of a complete basement gut and rebuild, so that,the kids, and food, are where she thinks the money should go to! Funny girl.
So, saying I have the discretionary money for the drivers, don't spend it on anything else, and can get this project off the ground. any thoughts on what sort of "box" to build? Remember, I can build anything, so don't feel limited. I recall that a sealed enclosure was mentioned, what would the advantage/disadvantage be of that? Definitely the easiest option.
And it IS longterm. Probably very longterm as I would need to convince my wife that I need to spend that much on on a pair of speaker drivers. Funny, as she's the musician in the family ('cellist). I'm in the middle of a complete basement gut and rebuild, so that,the kids, and food, are where she thinks the money should go to! Funny girl.
So, saying I have the discretionary money for the drivers, don't spend it on anything else, and can get this project off the ground. any thoughts on what sort of "box" to build? Remember, I can build anything, so don't feel limited. I recall that a sealed enclosure was mentioned, what would the advantage/disadvantage be of that? Definitely the easiest option.
Sealed A12 would only work with a helper woofer. Initial sims for the miniOnken for these (for reference search Fonken) give F6 just above 50 Hz anechoic. And the box is tiny (for the size of the driver)
The same tuning could be adapted to a sphere, you could start there or think about doing a beta build of the Mar-Ken12 (that will be what it is called, if you want to know where the strange names come from, check here)
I have to get this designed... my A12 are breaking in and this is the box we'll be putting it into. This driver is best in really small or really big boxes, the alternative is not in the cards
dave
The same tuning could be adapted to a sphere, you could start there or think about doing a beta build of the Mar-Ken12 (that will be what it is called, if you want to know where the strange names come from, check here)
I have to get this designed... my A12 are breaking in and this is the box we'll be putting it into. This driver is best in really small or really big boxes, the alternative is not in the cards
dave
beta what?
hey Dave, beta what?
Doug: it is very nice to see someone take up the cause of mid-century modern (my fave era for furniture, don't ya know..),. A quality build will result in something worthy of the time and effort.
What amplification/sources are you planning on?
and don't believe everything you've read...Dave's Fonkens (Fostex FE127eN Onken speaker) produces enough bass for me ,although I'm no bass head. Bass will not be the limiting factor, unless you want to pressurize the interior space of your house. A sub would be nice, but not essential, and the level of musical enjoyment will be very high. I have an old Phillips from 1961, with a nice little 6BM receiver, and turntable. 4 7 /2" fullrangers (Phillips AD2800M ).
There is something about this old console that just screams music. It sounds a little bass-bloated, but I could do something about that. Biggest hastle is Alnico magnets that reek havoc on any CRT within three or four feet (I killed a perfectly good tv with some old fullrangers by not paying close enough attention to the location of them in regards to the tv. If your project brings you a portion of the fun and music my old console brings to me, you will be very happy, and have a much nicer unit to look at as well.
hey Dave, beta what?
Doug: it is very nice to see someone take up the cause of mid-century modern (my fave era for furniture, don't ya know..),. A quality build will result in something worthy of the time and effort.
What amplification/sources are you planning on?
and don't believe everything you've read...Dave's Fonkens (Fostex FE127eN Onken speaker) produces enough bass for me
,although I'm no bass head. Bass will not be the limiting factor, unless you want to pressurize the interior space of your house. A sub would be nice, but not essential, and the level of musical enjoyment will be very high. I have an old Phillips from 1961, with a nice little 6BM receiver, and turntable. 4 7 /2" fullrangers (Phillips AD2800M ).There is something about this old console that just screams music. It sounds a little bass-bloated, but I could do something about that. Biggest hastle is Alnico magnets that reek havoc on any CRT within three or four feet (I killed a perfectly good tv with some old fullrangers by not paying close enough attention to the location of them in regards to the tv. If your project brings you a portion of the fun and music my old console brings to me, you will be very happy, and have a much nicer unit to look at as well.
Doug,
Contact me off-line. My email is on any of my sites, or you can use the pop-up menu under my moniker.
While making the post above i hatched a couple ideas for getting me around some of my challenges with this design.
While your saving your pennies we can also discuss what can be done about Alpair12eN... i haven't made one yet, but every other Mark Audio driver has responded very well,
dave
Contact me off-line. My email is on any of my sites, or you can use the pop-up menu under my moniker.
While making the post above i hatched a couple ideas for getting me around some of my challenges with this design.
While your saving your pennies we can also discuss what can be done about Alpair12eN... i haven't made one yet, but every other Mark Audio driver has responded very well,
dave
Doesn't have to be alnico. I remember an incident one Thanksgiving when a 14" trinitron was used as a stand for a pair of LS3/5A (we managed to demag the CRT, but it was touch & go for awhile)
dave
Hey, does this remind anyone of something?
Its the Brionvega Radiofonografo RR126. Its a new machine recreating a 1965 original.
I dunno, sure reminds me of something...now if I can only remember what...
By the way, there's a place that has it on sale for only 4900 euros.
Kind of makes me think that my Project G could be worth something if I ever needed to sell it.
Its the Brionvega Radiofonografo RR126. Its a new machine recreating a 1965 original.
I dunno, sure reminds me of something...now if I can only remember what...
By the way, there's a place that has it on sale for only 4900 euros.
Kind of makes me think that my Project G could be worth something if I ever needed to sell it.
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The CD slot is very cool.
I looked at the Clairtone and other buffet style media centers (can't remember what they are actually called, but found quite a few old Magnavox). Because my brother is perfect candidate for one of these. He listens to records and his iphone... literally that is the only music he owns, he doesn't even own a computer. He has a pair of my speakers and a tube amp that I made and a record player he stole from me. I gave up on the media center idea, but in interesting idea to reduce unwanted vibrations could be a bipole. Rather than your bipole being front and rear facing, since this will likely go near a wall, why not make it top and bottom facing with a tweeter in the front. The bottom driver will have about 2 feet of room before firing directly into the floor, but at least the record won't be skipping.
Josh
I looked at the Clairtone and other buffet style media centers (can't remember what they are actually called, but found quite a few old Magnavox). Because my brother is perfect candidate for one of these. He listens to records and his iphone... literally that is the only music he owns, he doesn't even own a computer. He has a pair of my speakers and a tube amp that I made and a record player he stole from me. I gave up on the media center idea, but in interesting idea to reduce unwanted vibrations could be a bipole. Rather than your bipole being front and rear facing, since this will likely go near a wall, why not make it top and bottom facing with a tweeter in the front. The bottom driver will have about 2 feet of room before firing directly into the floor, but at least the record won't be skipping.
Josh
Hey, Douglas!
Cool project - has some resemblance to the Zeiss(?) star-field projector in the planetarium - and how awesome was that back when we first saw it! Did you ever see/hear the original Clairtone units, or have you just discovered them through internet reasearch?
I have some personal experience with a record player in a console cabinet that may be relevant to your project. A few years back(!), I built a similar (but more conservatively-styled) unit. It had modest 8-inch full-range speakers housed within the cabinet, with a 10 wpc. amplifier. Even so, it had problems with acoustic feedback to the record player - a Garrard SL55B mounted directly above one of the speakers, but with a reasonably solid partition between the two. This was reduced to acceptable levels by bracing the cabinet and adding some damping foam pads under the record changer's suspension springs. Second problem that wasn't so easily cured was that the heavy cabinet on the oh-so-stylish pedestal legs would wobble with a very low resonant frequency that could be incited by ... um ... floor vibrations, and cause the record to skip. Are you planning to replicate the steel pedestal mount as shown in your pictures? Perhaps it will be sturdier than those on my console, but just something to watch out for.
Oh - and just one more caveat (applicable to married audiophiles): Console stereos are notorious magnets for house plants. Don't say I didn't warn you! ;-)
Regards,
Wilf
Wilf
Cool project - has some resemblance to the Zeiss(?) star-field projector in the planetarium - and how awesome was that back when we first saw it! Did you ever see/hear the original Clairtone units, or have you just discovered them through internet reasearch?
I have some personal experience with a record player in a console cabinet that may be relevant to your project. A few years back(!), I built a similar (but more conservatively-styled) unit. It had modest 8-inch full-range speakers housed within the cabinet, with a 10 wpc. amplifier. Even so, it had problems with acoustic feedback to the record player - a Garrard SL55B mounted directly above one of the speakers, but with a reasonably solid partition between the two. This was reduced to acceptable levels by bracing the cabinet and adding some damping foam pads under the record changer's suspension springs. Second problem that wasn't so easily cured was that the heavy cabinet on the oh-so-stylish pedestal legs would wobble with a very low resonant frequency that could be incited by ... um ... floor vibrations, and cause the record to skip. Are you planning to replicate the steel pedestal mount as shown in your pictures? Perhaps it will be sturdier than those on my console, but just something to watch out for.
Oh - and just one more caveat (applicable to married audiophiles): Console stereos are notorious magnets for house plants. Don't say I didn't warn you! ;-)
Regards,
Wilf
Wilf
Hi,
Did not see this posted, here is a link for some more reference - purely visual though.
Welcome to Clairtone
Although some nice restorations in the links.
Frank
Did not see this posted, here is a link for some more reference - purely visual though.
Welcome to Clairtone
Although some nice restorations in the links.
Frank
Hi Frank, Thanks for offering that link to the discussion. I am already familiar with that site, though I am sure that some others are not.
Some updates: I had been thinking of not including a turntable, that is until my son brought home a free Garrard Lab 80. So how could I NOT put in a period appropriate turntable like that? So that means that now I need to use a vintage style amp. I have a Marantz 2220 that could work well. I am also thinking about how to set this whole thing up as a media center.
Is nothing simple?!
I'll be starting this project with the speakers. Now, if I had some spare cash I could buy those drivers and get started. Who needs food anyway?
Some updates: I had been thinking of not including a turntable, that is until my son brought home a free Garrard Lab 80. So how could I NOT put in a period appropriate turntable like that? So that means that now I need to use a vintage style amp. I have a Marantz 2220 that could work well. I am also thinking about how to set this whole thing up as a media center.
Is nothing simple?!
I'll be starting this project with the speakers. Now, if I had some spare cash I could buy those drivers and get started. Who needs food anyway?
Nice idea Doug. I have a P-G as well, currently out on loan. Like all consoles, the whole notion of a TT coupled to loudspeaker resonances is a sonic disaster. The P-3 is all about aesthetic design as opposed to sound Hi-Fi design and execution. Like your ideas to maintain the design aesthetic while ramping up the Hi-Fi execution.
Been working on a variation thereof myself....
Been working on a variation thereof myself....
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