and I just wanted to get your opinions before I start.
This is my first go at this sort of thing, and it would be nice to get a good result first time out, but remember i'm a n00b.
Driver: Pioneer TS-W305C (i know it's a car sub, but it's for my car)
Specs (copied and pasted straight from the pioneer PDF)
Nom. Dia.(In) 12
Qts 0.340
Qms 15.095
Qes 0.348
Fs[Hz] 32.7
Vas[l] 51.45
Vas[ft3] 1.817
Sd[m2] 4.60E-02
Sd[ft2] 0.495
Revc[ohm] 3.0
Levc[mH]at 2000Hz 2.107
Xmax[mm] 9.2
Xmax[In] 0.36
Zmax[ohm] 139.18
Bl[Tm] 15.988
Rms[Ns/m] 1.875
Mms[g] 138.20
Cms[m/N] 1.717E-04
Mg.Wt.[g] 2350
Flux Density [Gauss] 6500
Hag[mm] 10
Hag[In] 0.394
Hvc[mm] 28
Hvc[In] 1.102
VC.Diameter[mm] 55
Eff[%] 0.50
S.P.L.[dB] 89
R.M.S.Power[W] 400
M.M.P.[W] 800
Sp. Displacement[l] 2.36
Sp. Displacement[ft3] 0.083
Recom. Enclosure[l] 42.5
Recom. Enclosure[ft3] 1.5
F0(in Cabinet) 48.6
Q0(in Cabinet) 0.506
I then added to WinISD like this (please let me know if any of them are wrong)
[Main]
Name=Pioneer TS-W305C
EnteredBy=MikeHunt79
Comment=
Date=02/12/2003
[Parameters]
Z=4
Fs=32.7
Pe=400
SPL=89
Re=3
Le=2.11
BL=15.99
Xmax=0.0092
Cms=0
Qms=9
Qes=0.35
Qts=0.39
Rms=0
Mms=0
Sd=0.046
Vas=51.5
Dia=0.3
DualVC=0
Type=0
^This is the contents of the "Pioneer TS-W305C.dri" file, you can just copy/paste it if you wanna add this to your database.
Ok, after a bit of fiddling I managed to get a nice vented box:
Red line = Sealed (50l)
Yellow line = Vented (50l) = Box i got with the sub
Green line = Vented (100l) = What I'm gonna build (tuned it to 30Hz, there not much point in going lower is there?)
I had a go at band pass, but didn't get any good results.
Opinions wanted please.
Also... Do you think 18mm MDF would do the trick? Would It help If I used battons? (I can get 18mm for almost free you see)
Also, I was thinking of mounting the amp on the side of the box near the top (away from the middle)... Is this a good/bad idea?
Lastly, this is should sound good, yes? (well, I'd be happy if the green line is gonna sound better than the yellow one).
This is my first go at this sort of thing, and it would be nice to get a good result first time out, but remember i'm a n00b.
Driver: Pioneer TS-W305C (i know it's a car sub, but it's for my car)
Specs (copied and pasted straight from the pioneer PDF)
Nom. Dia.(In) 12
Qts 0.340
Qms 15.095
Qes 0.348
Fs[Hz] 32.7
Vas[l] 51.45
Vas[ft3] 1.817
Sd[m2] 4.60E-02
Sd[ft2] 0.495
Revc[ohm] 3.0
Levc[mH]at 2000Hz 2.107
Xmax[mm] 9.2
Xmax[In] 0.36
Zmax[ohm] 139.18
Bl[Tm] 15.988
Rms[Ns/m] 1.875
Mms[g] 138.20
Cms[m/N] 1.717E-04
Mg.Wt.[g] 2350
Flux Density [Gauss] 6500
Hag[mm] 10
Hag[In] 0.394
Hvc[mm] 28
Hvc[In] 1.102
VC.Diameter[mm] 55
Eff[%] 0.50
S.P.L.[dB] 89
R.M.S.Power[W] 400
M.M.P.[W] 800
Sp. Displacement[l] 2.36
Sp. Displacement[ft3] 0.083
Recom. Enclosure[l] 42.5
Recom. Enclosure[ft3] 1.5
F0(in Cabinet) 48.6
Q0(in Cabinet) 0.506
I then added to WinISD like this (please let me know if any of them are wrong)
[Main]
Name=Pioneer TS-W305C
EnteredBy=MikeHunt79
Comment=
Date=02/12/2003
[Parameters]
Z=4
Fs=32.7
Pe=400
SPL=89
Re=3
Le=2.11
BL=15.99
Xmax=0.0092
Cms=0
Qms=9
Qes=0.35
Qts=0.39
Rms=0
Mms=0
Sd=0.046
Vas=51.5
Dia=0.3
DualVC=0
Type=0
^This is the contents of the "Pioneer TS-W305C.dri" file, you can just copy/paste it if you wanna add this to your database.
Ok, after a bit of fiddling I managed to get a nice vented box:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Red line = Sealed (50l)
Yellow line = Vented (50l) = Box i got with the sub
Green line = Vented (100l) = What I'm gonna build (tuned it to 30Hz, there not much point in going lower is there?)
I had a go at band pass, but didn't get any good results.
Opinions wanted please.
Also... Do you think 18mm MDF would do the trick? Would It help If I used battons? (I can get 18mm for almost free you see)
Also, I was thinking of mounting the amp on the side of the box near the top (away from the middle)... Is this a good/bad idea?
Lastly, this is should sound good, yes? (well, I'd be happy if the green line is gonna sound better than the yellow one).
Looks to me it would be a lot easier to just remove the port from
the 50L box, i.e. seal it and use an amplifier with an adjustable
40Hz boost, which are quite common.
alternatively :
Seems to me your 50L box port tuning frequency is too high.
You could try lining the port of the box you have with foam,
you'll need a piece 3x diameter and the port length.
Foam thickness around 8mm - assuming port = 50mm.
A lot easier than building a new box.
/sreten.
the 50L box, i.e. seal it and use an amplifier with an adjustable
40Hz boost, which are quite common.
alternatively :
Seems to me your 50L box port tuning frequency is too high.
You could try lining the port of the box you have with foam,
you'll need a piece 3x diameter and the port length.
Foam thickness around 8mm - assuming port = 50mm.
A lot easier than building a new box.
/sreten.
Firstly=use winisd pro
Secondly=
2 cube 33hz tune looks good
1x4" port 32cm long
that gives less peaking action.Dont forget cabin gain.u may need to EQ down the bass(better than not having enuf and sucking up power)
When i do WINISD i go
Vas Qes Qms Fs Re Sd Xmax Pe
and just let the other figures work themselves out...
the winisd helpfile tells u how.
usualy you arent told them.
EDIT=
Cheers
Secondly=
2 cube 33hz tune looks good
1x4" port 32cm long
that gives less peaking action.Dont forget cabin gain.u may need to EQ down the bass(better than not having enuf and sucking up power)
When i do WINISD i go
Vas Qes Qms Fs Re Sd Xmax Pe
and just let the other figures work themselves out...
the winisd helpfile tells u how.
usualy you arent told them.
EDIT=
Cheers
i dont reccomend that.it depends on how u mount it,with rubberfeet or not,how much SPL you have and how flexy your box is..the vibrations can cause problems in the pcbs i heard((i know a guy in Auckland who fixes amps)
Attachments
I wouldn't use that driver in a ported box; Consider cabin gain. The recommended (sealed) box size of 42.5 litres (Q=0.5), should work fine (as far as I can tell); You could probably even go a little smaller. 100 litres is a substantial box.
Check out SubWoofers.ORG for more info.
Check out SubWoofers.ORG for more info.
Ok, I've used these subs before, they're quite impressive.
important questions;
What car do you have? (hatch ,sedan ect)
what kinds/style of music do you listen to?
what are your bass "requirements" (smooth audiophile, sharp rappy, low boomy ect)
If the car suits it I usually prefer them sealed, like so;
each sub in a seperate ~35-40L chamber;
Some older sedans have next to no ready opening to fire a sub through so a bandpass enclosure is required; (note, the middle speaker grille is the port)
an important thing to note with bandpass enclosures is that, typically, a "by the book" enclosure won't sound the best, and a higher tuning frequency than normal is required to prevent the enclosure from sounding mushy/boomy.
important questions;
What car do you have? (hatch ,sedan ect)
what kinds/style of music do you listen to?
what are your bass "requirements" (smooth audiophile, sharp rappy, low boomy ect)
If the car suits it I usually prefer them sealed, like so;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
each sub in a seperate ~35-40L chamber;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Some older sedans have next to no ready opening to fire a sub through so a bandpass enclosure is required; (note, the middle speaker grille is the port)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
an important thing to note with bandpass enclosures is that, typically, a "by the book" enclosure won't sound the best, and a higher tuning frequency than normal is required to prevent the enclosure from sounding mushy/boomy.
Thanx for the replys guys, theres some really good stuff here.
AI might give the foam idea a go aswell, I might aswell experiement with my existing box first.
It does have quite a good sound as it stands, but I think it can be made a lot better.
Also, I'll be sure to find another place to mount the amp... Even tho it's still under warranty, I don't want to risk any damage to it since this is a good amp (Rockford Fosgate).
I just looked at the red line in the WinISD graph (which is for the sealed enclosure) and thought that it would sound bad since the low frequecies drop of below 100Hz (ie, not a very flat freq response), or does it somehow cancel out cabin gain?
Also, thanx for that site link. I've only had time to have a quick glance at it, but it looks good.
My car is a Peugeot 205, which is a Hatch. Quite similar to a Civic I guess but a bit smaller. There is usually a parcel shelf seperating the boot/trunk from the cabin, but I have replaced this with a piece of MDF with some Infiniti 6x9's in.
The MDF shelf is covered with cloth which covers the speakers so it looks less appealing to thieves. I was thinking about cutting holes in the shelf in order to let the air thru from the boot. I didn't know of this would help or not tho.
As for music styles, I listen to all sorts. Electronica (Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada, Squarepusher, that sort of thing), Drum and Bass (I prefer the Ram Records style), the occasional bit of Hip-Hop (Outkast and DJ Shadow type stuff), and also a some good old fashoned Rock (been listening to lots of Queens of the Stone Age recently).
Bass requirement: Well, my main goal would be deepness. It also needs to be not to boomy tho... so tight bass is also another goal. I take it both "deep" and "tight" aren't the easiest things to achive together?
It's probably worth mentioning that EQing is not a problem for me as I'm using a computer in my car as my music player, and there is a myriad of software that is able to do good EQ.
That does look like it will go really really deep, which is what I'm after. If this doen't sound too boomy (apparently this is a possibility) then this design is definately a possibilty.
Good idea. I'll have to see what it sounds like sealed in the current box when sealed. I'll wedge a glass in the port or something, and see what it sounds like.sreten said:Looks to me it would be a lot easier to just remove the port from the 50L box, i.e. seal it and use an amplifier with an adjustable 40Hz boost, which are quite common.
alternatively :
Seems to me your 50L box port tuning frequency is too high.
You could try lining the port of the box you have with foam,
you'll need a piece 3x diameter and the port length.
Foam thickness around 8mm - assuming port = 50mm.
A lot easier than building a new box.
AI might give the foam idea a go aswell, I might aswell experiement with my existing box first.
It does have quite a good sound as it stands, but I think it can be made a lot better.
I see what you mean about the peaking. I had another go with WinISD pro, and found that 80l (around 2.8 cube) tuned to 30Hz also gave a flatter response than my previous 100l design.mikee12345 said:Firstly=use winisd pro
Secondly=
2 cube 33hz tune looks good
1x4" port 32cm long
that gives less peaking action.Dont forget cabin gain.u may need to EQ down the bass(better than not having enuf and sucking up power)
When i do WINISD i go
Vas Qes Qms Fs Re Sd Xmax Pe
and just let the other figures work themselves out...
the winisd helpfile tells u how.
usualy you arent told them.
EDIT=
Cheers
i dont reccomend that.it depends on how u mount it,with rubberfeet or not,how much SPL you have and how flexy your box is..the vibrations can cause problems in the pcbs i heard((i know a guy in Auckland who fixes amps)
Also, I'll be sure to find another place to mount the amp... Even tho it's still under warranty, I don't want to risk any damage to it since this is a good amp (Rockford Fosgate).
I'll have to read up on cabin gain, as I have no idea about it (yet).cadmaniac said:
I just looked at the red line in the WinISD graph (which is for the sealed enclosure) and thought that it would sound bad since the low frequecies drop of below 100Hz (ie, not a very flat freq response), or does it somehow cancel out cabin gain?
Also, thanx for that site link. I've only had time to have a quick glance at it, but it looks good.
For the Yellow curve, I tried to model my current box. I went thru WinISD backwards. I measured the length and diameter of the port, then kept adjusting the tuning freq in WinISD till the port size roughly matched. I put it in so I could see how much of an improvement a new box would be.SkinnyBoy said:
Wow, someone using the same sub... Nice install you've done there, looks good.Volenti said:
My car is a Peugeot 205, which is a Hatch. Quite similar to a Civic I guess but a bit smaller. There is usually a parcel shelf seperating the boot/trunk from the cabin, but I have replaced this with a piece of MDF with some Infiniti 6x9's in.
The MDF shelf is covered with cloth which covers the speakers so it looks less appealing to thieves. I was thinking about cutting holes in the shelf in order to let the air thru from the boot. I didn't know of this would help or not tho.
As for music styles, I listen to all sorts. Electronica (Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada, Squarepusher, that sort of thing), Drum and Bass (I prefer the Ram Records style), the occasional bit of Hip-Hop (Outkast and DJ Shadow type stuff), and also a some good old fashoned Rock (been listening to lots of Queens of the Stone Age recently).
Bass requirement: Well, my main goal would be deepness. It also needs to be not to boomy tho... so tight bass is also another goal. I take it both "deep" and "tight" aren't the easiest things to achive together?
It's probably worth mentioning that EQing is not a problem for me as I'm using a computer in my car as my music player, and there is a myriad of software that is able to do good EQ.
You're sure did a better than me... I deleted most of my bandpass attempts cause they were so bad.Circlotron said:
That does look like it will go really really deep, which is what I'm after. If this doen't sound too boomy (apparently this is a possibility) then this design is definately a possibilty.
MikeHunt79 said:
ok, given your bass needs, the driver and the car I feel that sealed is the only option. The mdf parcel shelf is a liabality and needs to be eliminated unless you construct the enclosure so that the driver is on the top and fires directly through a (12'') hole in the shelf.
If you simply have the sub in a box with the mdf hatch cover above (with air holes) you're simply making a badly tuned 4th order bandpass enclosure.
The 6x9's are no longer needed for bass duties and shoud be high passed so they don't interfere with the 12''
12inch Pioneer in a 40 litre sealed = green...
two 8inch Venoms in 20 litres each sealed = yellow
Two 8inch subs fits better on a parcel shelf than one 12 does..
(please note, the 8inch sub reponse may be a little generous as I cranked up the X-max so that it wasn't limiting the max SPL... you should still be able to get this SPL, but not with a sinewave input)
thats the max spl calculated by rms power and x-max.... so... Venoms might be alright... (basically I'm tryign to convince my friend to get two $50 8inch woofers rather than one $200 12inch sub,.... )
two 8inch Venoms in 20 litres each sealed = yellow
Two 8inch subs fits better on a parcel shelf than one 12 does..
(please note, the 8inch sub reponse may be a little generous as I cranked up the X-max so that it wasn't limiting the max SPL... you should still be able to get this SPL, but not with a sinewave input)
thats the max spl calculated by rms power and x-max.... so... Venoms might be alright...
(basically I'm tryign to convince my friend to get two $50 8inch woofers rather than one $200 12inch sub,.... )Attachments
Volenti said:
hea this is almost like chat
yea it's good in a way to have the spider limiting the excursion rather than the back of the pole peiceespecially with smaller drivers and low bass.
but someone else I know reccons he got it to bottom out with like 70watts.... hmm... I'm not too sure about it...
you could even do the Venom 8inches in like 20 - 30 litres ported..
Dont go increasing xmaxes now
look at the EBP of the woofer
Its well into the ported box range.
Sealed -3db @ 70hz
Ported -3db @ 40hz,or 30hz with 2 cubes .More possibilities
Personaly,i dont take into account cabin gain that is UN MEASURED as everyones gain is different!
+ i hate sealed box properties of raising the Fs,increasing distortion in the midbass
where as ported is dampening the cone near there.
In my opinion -3db @ 70hz is too crap
-3db @ 40hz matches the generic gain curve better.
look at the EBP of the woofer
Its well into the ported box range.
Sealed -3db @ 70hz
Ported -3db @ 40hz,or 30hz with 2 cubes .More possibilities
Personaly,i dont take into account cabin gain that is UN MEASURED as everyones gain is different!
+ i hate sealed box properties of raising the Fs,increasing distortion in the midbass
where as ported is dampening the cone near there.
In my opinion -3db @ 70hz is too crap
-3db @ 40hz matches the generic gain curve better.
Sealed or ported... the dilemma continues
I finally got round to reading http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ and it has some very good info on there. It got me thinking that a sealed is better since it claimed that some cars have 18db per octave of cabin gain below 80HZ! That seems an awful lot - building a crossover that has 18db/octave is a task in itself, so sealed seems like a solution. I think I now understand why many people say sealed sounds good, despite the un-flat frequency response.
I doubt my car has 18db/octave of gain tho, but it would be nice to know how much cabin there really is. Maybe I should try some of that room analysing software in my car?
But in the otherhand, I'm really tempted to build a box with a flat freq response (or close to it), and use EQ to cancel out the cabin gain. I currently favour this option since I occasionally bring the sub in the house for house parties, and such like, where there is no cabin gain at all (I guess I should've mentioned this earler).
Since you've used these drivers before in a sealed enclosure, can you tell me what they sound at the lower frequencies... Would 30Hz sound good, for example?
Also, as bang for buck goes, this pioneer almost unbeatable. It can be had for around £50 here in the UK, which is much less than $200, and maybe less than 2 of the 8" woofers you mention.
By the sounds of it, ported gives much deeper bass, and my midrange and highs are also more than adiquate:
6x9's combined with 6.25" components up front, recieving a total of 200Wrms (equal to the sub).
This is why I want deep and efficient bass, as I don't want this to sound to tinny because of all all the mid's and highs that I got.
Even tho I'm favouring ported at the moment, I need to think how I can incorporate with the MDF parcel shelf.
One option I thought about was this:
Having both driver and port on the top of the box.
Parcel shelf - Top view (The diamonds are 6x9's):
'._________________.'
'|'''''._____.'''''|'
'|'''''|Hole'|'''''|'
'|'/\\''|'for'|''/\\'|'
'|'\/''|'box'|''\/'|'
'|'''''|_____|'''''|'
'|_________________|'
Parcel shelf - View from behind:
|'''''''''''''''''''|
|._________________.|
|''[_]'|'''''|'[_]''|
|''''''|'box'|''''''|
|''''''|'''''|''''''|
|______|_____|______|
I finally got round to reading http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ and it has some very good info on there. It got me thinking that a sealed is better since it claimed that some cars have 18db per octave of cabin gain below 80HZ! That seems an awful lot - building a crossover that has 18db/octave is a task in itself, so sealed seems like a solution. I think I now understand why many people say sealed sounds good, despite the un-flat frequency response.
I doubt my car has 18db/octave of gain tho, but it would be nice to know how much cabin there really is. Maybe I should try some of that room analysing software in my car?
But in the otherhand, I'm really tempted to build a box with a flat freq response (or close to it), and use EQ to cancel out the cabin gain. I currently favour this option since I occasionally bring the sub in the house for house parties, and such like, where there is no cabin gain at all (I guess I should've mentioned this earler).
Having the sub in the parcel shelf sounds like a good idea (if I decide go the sealed route) since I need to keep my 6x9's and there's no where else to mount them. I could make the box so that it touches the floor of the boot, and supports the weight of the parcel shelf (which is already starting to sag).Volenti said:
Since you've used these drivers before in a sealed enclosure, can you tell me what they sound at the lower frequencies... Would 30Hz sound good, for example?
Yep, I was going to use a 3 or hopefully a 6db/octave filter at around 80Hz to do this. Does this sound ok? I chose 80Hz since my amps LPF for the sub is 12dB/Octave butterworth at 80Hz.Volenti said:
I can guess your train of thought here, but music has no need for stereo bass. Mono is perfectly good, is stereo separation only is only noticable at higher frequencies. Also, this sub can handle 400Wrms, which is nice, even tho my amp is only giving out 200Wrms, so I know that I can't damage it if I crank it right up (unless i'm listening to a square wave or something stupid like that.)SkinnyBoy said:12inch Pioneer in a 40 litre sealed = green...
two 8inch Venoms in 20 litres each sealed = yellow
Two 8inch subs fits better on a parcel shelf than one 12 does..
(please note, the 8inch sub reponse may be a little generous as I cranked up the X-max so that it wasn't limiting the max SPL... you should still be able to get this SPL, but not with a sinewave input)
thats the max spl calculated by rms power and x-max.... so... Venoms might be alright...
Also, as bang for buck goes, this pioneer almost unbeatable. It can be had for around £50 here in the UK, which is much less than $200, and maybe less than 2 of the 8" woofers you mention.
What is this generic gain curve you mention?mikee12345 said:
By the sounds of it, ported gives much deeper bass, and my midrange and highs are also more than adiquate:
6x9's combined with 6.25" components up front, recieving a total of 200Wrms (equal to the sub).
This is why I want deep and efficient bass, as I don't want this to sound to tinny because of all all the mid's and highs that I got.
Even tho I'm favouring ported at the moment, I need to think how I can incorporate with the MDF parcel shelf.
One option I thought about was this:
Having both driver and port on the top of the box.
Parcel shelf - Top view (The diamonds are 6x9's
):'._________________.'
'|'''''._____.'''''|'
'|'''''|Hole'|'''''|'
'|'/\\''|'for'|''/\\'|'
'|'\/''|'box'|''\/'|'
'|'''''|_____|'''''|'
'|_________________|'
Parcel shelf - View from behind:
|'''''''''''''''''''|
|._________________.|
|''[_]'|'''''|'[_]''|
|''''''|'box'|''''''|
|''''''|'''''|''''''|
|______|_____|______|
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