Will you post a few comparitive graphs?
Dear Mr Madsen,
Lets try and compare apples with apples.
Leaving the subjective issue of sound quality to one side for a moment.
Why keep us guessing as to the detailed specs of your proprietary modules?
Put up a few graphs that compare specs of your modules using the same criteria as the ones detailed in the Hypex UcD pdf file as found on their website, the mueta data as detailed on their website - and the B&O data.
I assume that you posses an Audio precision to conduct the tests..?
Surely there is nothing to be ashamed of with the technical performance of your product..... Is there?
You never know you may get deluged with calls from people wanting to buy some from you.
Whatever the outcome, if you post the data or not, I believe that you are not helping your cause by being so secretive about the actual specs of your designs, and belittling the performance of other class D solutions.
Knocking the competition rather than promoting the benefits of your own product, is either the sign of a poor salesman, or a poor product. I hope that for your sake it is the former.
Nothing personal, just my outlook on things.
Cheers
Sheriff
Dear Mr Madsen,
Lets try and compare apples with apples.
Leaving the subjective issue of sound quality to one side for a moment.
Why keep us guessing as to the detailed specs of your proprietary modules?
Put up a few graphs that compare specs of your modules using the same criteria as the ones detailed in the Hypex UcD pdf file as found on their website, the mueta data as detailed on their website - and the B&O data.
I assume that you posses an Audio precision to conduct the tests..?
Surely there is nothing to be ashamed of with the technical performance of your product..... Is there?
You never know you may get deluged with calls from people wanting to buy some from you.
Whatever the outcome, if you post the data or not, I believe that you are not helping your cause by being so secretive about the actual specs of your designs, and belittling the performance of other class D solutions.
Knocking the competition rather than promoting the benefits of your own product, is either the sign of a poor salesman, or a poor product. I hope that for your sake it is the former.
Nothing personal, just my outlook on things.
Cheers
Sheriff
Dear Karsten,
...hm I find it very pitty you don't want to compare, by yourselve (!), the UcD with your own Class-D. Please feel free to take mine offer agin in consideration, I am really looking forward to your acoustical comments.
This is the best way to do a discussion, comparing A to B and vice versa. Otherwise we stay at the same level as "this amp does sound better the other one".
I agreed totally with Kuribo: Simple details like output filter/feedback take-off are also likewise provided by most designers, and discussion of such is not considered "giving away the store".
B&O, Mueta and in this forum links about the UcD patent, does tell a lot about this particuler designs. So they share the community with a lot of information. So I disagree with you that you share the same info as the above mention is companies.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
...hm I find it very pitty you don't want to compare, by yourselve (!), the UcD with your own Class-D. Please feel free to take mine offer agin in consideration, I am really looking forward to your acoustical comments.
This is the best way to do a discussion, comparing A to B and vice versa. Otherwise we stay at the same level as "this amp does sound better the other one".
I agreed totally with Kuribo: Simple details like output filter/feedback take-off are also likewise provided by most designers, and discussion of such is not considered "giving away the store".
B&O, Mueta and in this forum links about the UcD patent, does tell a lot about this particuler designs. So they share the community with a lot of information. So I disagree with you that you share the same info as the above mention is companies.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
hi.
sheriff , yes we did measure thd , freq response ... with an ap and yes the specs are decent for sure.
we did send out the specs to oem customers but i still think there is little correlation between low thd and good sound quality.
this is based on real life experience comparing boards having much better specs (on paper) with our boards
too bad you could say you cant make you own comparison of sound quality.
jan-petter if you cant see from what i wrote long time ago what topology we are using regarding pre/post output fiter feedback you could be the only one (perhaps kuribo cant either...)
you may as you have done before make your own conclusions or asumptions based on whatever you like to think , im afraid i cant help you and im sure we dont want any cooperation with you either.
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
sheriff , yes we did measure thd , freq response ... with an ap and yes the specs are decent for sure.
we did send out the specs to oem customers but i still think there is little correlation between low thd and good sound quality.
this is based on real life experience comparing boards having much better specs (on paper) with our boards
too bad you could say you cant make you own comparison of sound quality.
jan-petter if you cant see from what i wrote long time ago what topology we are using regarding pre/post output fiter feedback you could be the only one (perhaps kuribo cant either...)
you may as you have done before make your own conclusions or asumptions based on whatever you like to think , im afraid i cant help you and im sure we dont want any cooperation with you either.
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
Hi KM,
I realise that good specs do not always equal good sound quality.
After all how is it that there are so many valve amps out there - people enjoy the sound that they make.
Is this down to 2nd harmonic distortion...? Many customers dont know or really care - they just buy them because they enjoy them.
I do not doubt that your modules are good (I have not heard them so i am not qualified to comment). But it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth and gives me nagging doubts when you are backward in coming forward with any meaningful info.
Perhaps you could post the data that you sent to the potential OEM customer.
Combine this with the bashing that you tried to hand out re the ICE power modules in earlier threads......
From where i sit, it does not look promising.
I am sure that more people would consider your products if you were a little more open, and open minded about the way you do business.
Cheers
Sheriff
I realise that good specs do not always equal good sound quality.
After all how is it that there are so many valve amps out there - people enjoy the sound that they make.
Is this down to 2nd harmonic distortion...? Many customers dont know or really care - they just buy them because they enjoy them.
I do not doubt that your modules are good (I have not heard them so i am not qualified to comment). But it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth and gives me nagging doubts when you are backward in coming forward with any meaningful info.
Perhaps you could post the data that you sent to the potential OEM customer.
Combine this with the bashing that you tried to hand out re the ICE power modules in earlier threads......
From where i sit, it does not look promising.
I am sure that more people would consider your products if you were a little more open, and open minded about the way you do business.
Cheers
Sheriff
Madsen,
When you have measurement data, please show it to us?
Probably it is secret, but I do not see why?
I can't remember myself that I saw something more technical info about your topic. But perhaps you can be so nice to repeat it again?
How can I make a conclusion about something where I don't know anything about?
In the past we have used the ICE500 a lot for several OEM customers, I am very satisfied about this product. Within a few months we will move to an own UcD 400-500W version.
In the past I have got a first version of the Zappulse from LCaudio (BTW for free!!!, Lars still many thanks), but there was somewhat too much EMC from this version. As far as I know LCaudio has this now very much improved, and this must be ok now. In one of the other Topics (Class-D versus Class-A) Lars did tell and show a lot of his design. He is one of the less designers who did design something by him self. Still mine compliments to him.
.....so I have some experience with other products.
If you don't have us something to tell/show we better stop with this duscussion, it has no sense anymore.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
When you have measurement data, please show it to us?
Probably it is secret, but I do not see why?
I can't remember myself that I saw something more technical info about your topic. But perhaps you can be so nice to repeat it again?
How can I make a conclusion about something where I don't know anything about?
In the past we have used the ICE500 a lot for several OEM customers, I am very satisfied about this product. Within a few months we will move to an own UcD 400-500W version.
In the past I have got a first version of the Zappulse from LCaudio (BTW for free!!!, Lars still many thanks), but there was somewhat too much EMC from this version. As far as I know LCaudio has this now very much improved, and this must be ok now. In one of the other Topics (Class-D versus Class-A) Lars did tell and show a lot of his design. He is one of the less designers who did design something by him self. Still mine compliments to him.
.....so I have some experience with other products.
If you don't have us something to tell/show we better stop with this duscussion, it has no sense anymore.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
hi.
sheriff, where is the so-called bashing of icepower you refer to?
and where is the >belittling the performance of other class D solutions>?
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
ps. jan-peter you are right asuming that we dont wish to show or send you anything......
sheriff, where is the so-called bashing of icepower you refer to?
and where is the >belittling the performance of other class D solutions>?
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
ps. jan-peter you are right asuming that we dont wish to show or send you anything......
km said:
Well, I think it all depends... THD measurements at steady state operation will of cause only tell a part of the story, but it is a place to start. When THD, freq. response and maybe a 1kHz FFT is made, it's always interesting to try the real challenge: TIM, DIM, SMPTE, CCIF etc. Linearity under strongly transient operation tells a great deal about sound quality IMO. Music is often to be considered as transients.
But also other parameters are important/of great interest: Open/light/hard load operation. How much differs performance with e.g. an inductive load (quite important) etc.
Things as background noise doesn't matter much with a class d, as the noise flor often is a few µV if implemented properly.
By the way, a THD vs. power at high frequencies, say 5kHz, with high measuring bandwidth, say 80kHz tells a lot about basic modulator linearity (and a lot of designs gives scary figures here).
Soren,
I agree with you a good measurement is a place to start.
Flat frequency responce is very importend to have a neutral sound.
And something very importend is to have a flat THD curve thrue the whole frequency band. When the amp has a lot of feedback around 1K the THD is nice low but at 10K it is very bad because of the lack of loopgain.
The very nice thing of the UcD is has a flat THD curve. Thd at 100Hz is the same as 10kHz.
Are you not the designer of the Sorens Audio project?
BTW we get very far a way, at the moment, from the original topic;-)
IVX, ofcourse I don't mind to buy the Cadaudio amp, but I don't think I will get it when I order it personally.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
I agree with you a good measurement is a place to start.
Flat frequency responce is very importend to have a neutral sound.
And something very importend is to have a flat THD curve thrue the whole frequency band. When the amp has a lot of feedback around 1K the THD is nice low but at 10K it is very bad because of the lack of loopgain.
The very nice thing of the UcD is has a flat THD curve. Thd at 100Hz is the same as 10kHz.
Are you not the designer of the Sorens Audio project?
BTW we get very far a way, at the moment, from the original topic;-)
IVX, ofcourse I don't mind to buy the Cadaudio amp, but I don't think I will get it when I order it personally.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
www.hypex.nl
hi.
soren , did you have a chance to listen to different class-d amps?, if yes you have probably noticed that they sound quite different and the better spec type doesnt necessarily sound best (most natural , open or whatever way you want to describe it).
same goes for other types of amplifiers like sheriff points out , most tube amps dont really show good specs many of them sound better than transistor amps with far better specs
sheriff , im afraid that what you want to do is to substitute a real life listening experience with spec reading and im afraid i cant help you here (and im also afraid it wont say much after all).
listen to amps in real life and share your experience with the rest of us , ok?
what class-d amps did you listen to so far?
btw. feel free to email me if you have further questions.
rgds - karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
soren , did you have a chance to listen to different class-d amps?, if yes you have probably noticed that they sound quite different and the better spec type doesnt necessarily sound best (most natural , open or whatever way you want to describe it).
same goes for other types of amplifiers like sheriff points out , most tube amps dont really show good specs many of them sound better than transistor amps with far better specs
sheriff , im afraid that what you want to do is to substitute a real life listening experience with spec reading and im afraid i cant help you here (and im also afraid it wont say much after all).
listen to amps in real life and share your experience with the rest of us , ok?
what class-d amps did you listen to so far?
btw. feel free to email me if you have further questions.
rgds - karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
I'm game........
Hi KM,
I have used the Tripath demo boards around 18 months ago, and have used ICEpower 500A modules. I have also listened to some of the sony stuff, however this amp technology was incorporated into some cheapish AV products and of course the TACT amp.
I am not a highly technical person, and I am interested in sound quality, but as it has been stated in this thread, a solid indication of a units ability can be made when studying the right data.
Soren makes some extremely valid points here.
I am happy to share my comments with you re real life tests....
I have here a 1.8KW SMPS with PFC with an 80V main rail that was done for the ICEpower 500A module - i guess that this could be used to evaluate your modules too?
Cheers
Sheriff
Hi KM,
I have used the Tripath demo boards around 18 months ago, and have used ICEpower 500A modules. I have also listened to some of the sony stuff, however this amp technology was incorporated into some cheapish AV products and of course the TACT amp.
I am not a highly technical person, and I am interested in sound quality, but as it has been stated in this thread, a solid indication of a units ability can be made when studying the right data.
Soren makes some extremely valid points here.
I am happy to share my comments with you re real life tests....
I have here a 1.8KW SMPS with PFC with an 80V main rail that was done for the ICEpower 500A module - i guess that this could be used to evaluate your modules too?
Cheers
Sheriff
I think that most people reading this thread would agree that specs aren't everything, but that they can provide insight and are of some value when analyzed correctly.
Refusing to provide such information, when it is an industry norm, is really quite odd. It does nothing to further interest in a product to refuse to provide basic performance measures that are a part of all legitimate product literature. All it does is make everyone wonder, "what's being hid?" Is it some type of sales gimic? In any case, it is clearly not the work of anyone that knows anything about selling a product. There are more positive and productive ways to differentiate a product in the marketplace than trying to position one's product as "the mysterious wonder amp".
Mr. Madsen is always quick to join the discussion on class d, and seems to usually talk down the competition while talking up his product. Inevitably, he is then asked for more detailed info about his product, at which point he goes into stealth mode, offering nothing meaningful about his product, other than it sounds great. I have listened to many different class d amps (Tripath, IcePower, Sony, Sharp, TACT, Spectron, PS Audio, Spectron, etc.), and purchased a lot of products of all types, and I can say with certainty that when someone talks down the competition, and refuses to offer any real info on their own product, I lose interest very quickly.
Looking forward to the UcD modules!
Refusing to provide such information, when it is an industry norm, is really quite odd. It does nothing to further interest in a product to refuse to provide basic performance measures that are a part of all legitimate product literature. All it does is make everyone wonder, "what's being hid?" Is it some type of sales gimic? In any case, it is clearly not the work of anyone that knows anything about selling a product. There are more positive and productive ways to differentiate a product in the marketplace than trying to position one's product as "the mysterious wonder amp".
Mr. Madsen is always quick to join the discussion on class d, and seems to usually talk down the competition while talking up his product. Inevitably, he is then asked for more detailed info about his product, at which point he goes into stealth mode, offering nothing meaningful about his product, other than it sounds great. I have listened to many different class d amps (Tripath, IcePower, Sony, Sharp, TACT, Spectron, PS Audio, Spectron, etc.), and purchased a lot of products of all types, and I can say with certainty that when someone talks down the competition, and refuses to offer any real info on their own product, I lose interest very quickly.
Looking forward to the UcD modules!
km said:hi.
soren , did you have a chance to listen to different class-d amps?, if yes you have probably noticed that they sound quite different and the better spec type doesnt necessarily sound best (most natural , open or whatever way you want to describe it).
same goes for other types of amplifiers like sheriff points out , most tube amps dont really show good specs many of them sound better than transistor amps with far better specs
what class-d amps did you listen to so far?
www.cadaudio.dk
Yes, I have listened to some class d amps, but the only commercial ones are the ICEpower 250 and 500 modules and the TACT Mill. Apart from those, I have a great bunch of my own prototypes, based upon a wide range of modulator and control topologies.
Sound differs with the different amplifiers, but so do the measurements. As far as I can see, my own experience of the sound quality follows the measurements quite well, and of cause I don't only mean THD under steday state conditions.
To be rough, the most important measurements are THD vs. freq (with say 80kHz bandwidth) for different output powers and a transient measurement such as DIM vs. ampl. The can actually tell you a great deal about linearity, design of control loop and transient (music) performance.
hi.
the point im trying to make here is that some of the class-d amps were designed to give good thd specs and with much less attention to sound quality.
we took the oposite approach , designing for good sound quality.
if you only compare the specs and not the sound quality what will you learn from that?
it reminds me a bit about the early transistor amps having better specs than the "old fashioned" tube amps and being marketed with that , were they better? , no i dont think so
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
ps. sheriff you made some accusations about bashing and belittling , i asked you to show us these , any answer on that?
kuribo , same question goes to you.
the point im trying to make here is that some of the class-d amps were designed to give good thd specs and with much less attention to sound quality.
we took the oposite approach , designing for good sound quality.
if you only compare the specs and not the sound quality what will you learn from that?
it reminds me a bit about the early transistor amps having better specs than the "old fashioned" tube amps and being marketed with that , were they better? , no i dont think so
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
ps. sheriff you made some accusations about bashing and belittling , i asked you to show us these , any answer on that?
kuribo , same question goes to you.
hi.
i think it is our right to decide what info we send out to potential customers and what we publish on our website , if you , kuribo, dont like it , well as we primarily sell to pro audio companies on an oem basis i guess we will have to live with that
if i am quick to join class-d discussion i dont know , i think i gave some kind of answer to a question about class-d for music amplification and switch-mode supplies , what answer did you provide?
it would seem to me that jan-peter and you "took over" a thread started with somebodys questions and used it for your own purposes....
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
i think it is our right to decide what info we send out to potential customers and what we publish on our website , if you , kuribo, dont like it , well as we primarily sell to pro audio companies on an oem basis i guess we will have to live with that
if i am quick to join class-d discussion i dont know , i think i gave some kind of answer to a question about class-d for music amplification and switch-mode supplies , what answer did you provide?
it would seem to me that jan-peter and you "took over" a thread started with somebodys questions and used it for your own purposes....
rgds karsten madsen - www.cadaudio.dk
Bashing.......
Hi KM,
I dont have the inclination to go right through your posts, but i remember that you turned your attention to the acoustic reality amp.
You made comments about the designer, the modules and questioned the ability of both in a most unprofessional way.
Everyone is allowed a bad day at the office i suppose.......
And one last thing, be careful what you say on these forums as you may well scare off some of those precious OEM customers...
Sheriff
Hi KM,
I dont have the inclination to go right through your posts, but i remember that you turned your attention to the acoustic reality amp.
You made comments about the designer, the modules and questioned the ability of both in a most unprofessional way.
Everyone is allowed a bad day at the office i suppose.......
And one last thing, be careful what you say on these forums as you may well scare off some of those precious OEM customers...
Sheriff
a quick look turned up these gems...
prior posts from Mr. Madsen regarding zap pulse and icepower:
"hi.
you "add" for lc audio is very much different from others i have seen around on the net , including danish usenet groups.
the verdict has been from dull , useless etc. to good russian radio receiver (not to mention transmitter)"
Icepower:
">ICE1000A amplifier module, 1000W RMS and they sound great>
its a subwoofer amplifier , and it goes to 1 khz
i guess your definition of great sound is different from most of us, but nice marketing again "
More Icepower:
"hi,
how strange , your impression of the icepower modules are very far away from others i have seen and heard.
we compared the modules at work and we were a lot less impressed that you seem to be.
the designer of the modules agreed (we invited him to a test) that 2 other amps we had for comparison was better to some extent that the icepower amps.
was it $8000 you paid??"
Not exactly praise....
In any case, this pattern has gotten old and I am tired of the merry-go-round. I'm getting off here....
prior posts from Mr. Madsen regarding zap pulse and icepower:
"hi.
you "add" for lc audio is very much different from others i have seen around on the net , including danish usenet groups.
the verdict has been from dull , useless etc. to good russian radio receiver (not to mention transmitter)"
Icepower:
">ICE1000A amplifier module, 1000W RMS and they sound great>
its a subwoofer amplifier , and it goes to 1 khz
i guess your definition of great sound is different from most of us, but nice marketing again "
More Icepower:
"hi,
how strange , your impression of the icepower modules are very far away from others i have seen and heard.
we compared the modules at work and we were a lot less impressed that you seem to be.
the designer of the modules agreed (we invited him to a test) that 2 other amps we had for comparison was better to some extent that the icepower amps.
was it $8000 you paid??"
Not exactly praise....
In any case, this pattern has gotten old and I am tired of the merry-go-round. I'm getting off here....
Interesting discussion...
Did anyone here consider the D2audio modules? Seems that they use a dsp as a modulator, offering additional power for custom crossover and eq functions.
How does these modules behave if interfaced with a 16-ohm load? Would it be true that the combination of high power/high bandwidth is most expensive, so that a 2-way module could use a low bandwidth (3KHz) for the woofer and a lower power module for the tweeter?
still curious ;-)
Knut Inge
Did anyone here consider the D2audio modules? Seems that they use a dsp as a modulator, offering additional power for custom crossover and eq functions.
How does these modules behave if interfaced with a 16-ohm load? Would it be true that the combination of high power/high bandwidth is most expensive, so that a 2-way module could use a low bandwidth (3KHz) for the woofer and a lower power module for the tweeter?
still curious ;-)
Knut Inge
SMPS
For moderate power like 100-200VA you do not really gain much weight going to a SMPS. A typical 150VA toroid with caps would have a weight of about 1,5 kg and an SMPS of the same output, about one kg. What you gain is tht the SMPS can have universal imput (100V-250V) and perhaps better transient response. Perhaps. However, using a PWM amp will let you use a smaller transformer and heat sink for the same output, thereby giving lower total weight.
If someone would like to build a PWM amp, I have some PCBs for the Tripath TA2022 chip. They deliver 2x90W at 4 0hms or 150-200W bridged at 8 ohms.
For moderate power like 100-200VA you do not really gain much weight going to a SMPS. A typical 150VA toroid with caps would have a weight of about 1,5 kg and an SMPS of the same output, about one kg. What you gain is tht the SMPS can have universal imput (100V-250V) and perhaps better transient response. Perhaps. However, using a PWM amp will let you use a smaller transformer and heat sink for the same output, thereby giving lower total weight.
If someone would like to build a PWM amp, I have some PCBs for the Tripath TA2022 chip. They deliver 2x90W at 4 0hms or 150-200W bridged at 8 ohms.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.