My experience tells me different. The OP's room is smaller than my living room. LA's have a smeared sound to me due to the varied arrival time from different drivers especially in the near field.Wavebourn said:
It's your right to believe...
My LAs sound on home concerts nice, no source points can be compared with them (however, I newer use at home 4 sections per side like I do on stadiums, only because they would not fit.).
Did the LA thing 20 years ago with a Genesis like design.
it probably boils down to personal taste (my taste is the same as brett)
so if the OP likes that sound, thats great.
i just would think about the driver choice and switch to pro-drivers, the b3s wont be loud enough, for more than home hifi levels. ideally 2 way with a around 6 inch midbass and a seperate line of tweeters. since ribbons will be to expensive, there should be nice dome tweeter which could be used. that will have alot more sensitivity, headroom and high frequency extension.
(my taste is the same as brett)so if the OP likes that sound, thats great.
i just would think about the driver choice and switch to pro-drivers, the b3s wont be loud enough, for more than home hifi levels. ideally 2 way with a around 6 inch midbass and a seperate line of tweeters. since ribbons will be to expensive, there should be nice dome tweeter which could be used. that will have alot more sensitivity, headroom and high frequency extension.
MaVo said:it probably boils down to personal taste
so if the OP likes that sound, thats great.
i just would think about the driver choice and switch to pro-drivers, the b3s wont be loud enough, for more than home hifi levels. ideally 2 way with a around 6 inch midbass and a seperate line of tweeters. since ribbons will be to expensive, there should be nice dome tweeter which could be used. that will have alot more sensitivity, headroom and high frequency extension.
It is more than personal tastes; arrays are arrays and may be constructed for any desired directivity. For example, phased arrays in rocket control stations produce very narrow ray using much smaller surface than was needed when a single antenna with a reflector was used. The same with arrays of speakers: the same Fresnel transformations may be used to project them.
If to go with arrays I would build for that room 4 arrays, each of 8 4.5" automotive coaxials mounted in corners above heads on concrete baffless with memory foam on backs, and point them to the middle of the dancing hall.
If the construction permit I would build a concrete horn under the floor with a throat opening into the hall for frequencies below 160 Hz.
I am constantly amazed how many participants of this forum adore poor quality drivers such eminence beta series
for such a task I would get two active 10"+1" boxes complemented with a proper sub. if the loudness requirement is moderate, such configuration will play it with ease
this is a good value/money combination
http://www.rcf.it/vediMacro.phtml/s...ttivo/1674/m1/0/ARTSeriesART310-A/product.htm
for such a task I would get two active 10"+1" boxes complemented with a proper sub. if the loudness requirement is moderate, such configuration will play it with ease
this is a good value/money combination
http://www.rcf.it/vediMacro.phtml/s...ttivo/1674/m1/0/ARTSeriesART310-A/product.htm
deiksac said:
May be because "poor quality drives" may sound better than "rich quality 10 +1 boxes"?
You know, if people say, "I like the sound", some people try to understand what is good in that sound, instead of trying to enlighten them why they are wrong, especially when they like something different from what was well advertised and established...
MaVo said:
Another reason why one shouldn't try to do maths under stress. I thought totally wrong when punching the numbers through my calculator...
Point taken!There is an issue here you're not aware of. The stage where dance instructors stand, is a "hole in the wall" on the short side of the room. IF the room is 12 m (my approximation made entirely of of my memory) the echo would travel 12+12+3 m to the instructor. We already have this problem. That's a fact.
Of course this would easily be remidied by putting a monitor on stage, but for some reason it was less audible with the Bose. Probably because of it's wide dispersion, sending some music info directly back to the stage instead of just bouncing it off the back wall.
When mounting the speakers as you suggested (above the dancers) it just doesn't help much. It's normally not the bass beat that's troubling, it's when the beat is in the mid range = cha cha's and such music. That sound is more directed, which means more echoes off the back wall.
Yes. If you are in the dead center of them. What happens if you're standing right beside one of them?
Of course the arrays would be elevatated, or at least power tapered to get the max output at just above ear heigth so that not all of the sound is "eaten" by humans... =)
Yes, I know.. That's why I thought I could build 'em cheaper and/or better myself!
Brett said:
I see your point. If you have a good idea about what products for me to use for this, please post some info. I'd be glad to have a look at them. The criterias are in the first post. But remember I am looking for something that just doesn't sound like a PA system, since I have too much bad experiences with horn loaded speakers that sounds horn loaded, which in my ears are way too harsh on the high mids.
The sound I am looking for is more HiFi-ish than PA-like. Once again, I have no need to play loud. It should just sound nice, articulate and go easy on your ears.
A really wide horizontal dispersion pattern is also needed in most of the frequency spectrum.
Brett said:
I don't see how this could be the issue for me if I use power tapering and fairly long distances between speaker and ears. The difference between drivers @ 3 meters+ isn't all that much. And what the heck; I can buy a digital time delay unit included in the price and still use less money than the other system...
When we tried the Bose out, we also had a "normal" PA system with two 10" + Horn speakers and a 15" (or was it 18"?) active sub for comparison. Close to the same price range @ ~€2.100. That system also sounded good, but the Bose "won" with more HiFi-like sound and better "room fill factor".
MaVo said:It probably boils down to personal taste
so if the OP likes that sound, thats great.
Wavebourn said:
Thanks... =)
deiksac said:
Please see my last post. We did try this.
pinkmouse said:
I can see what you're getting at. I just want to point out the fact I am not after the "normal" PA line array alignment with multiple horizontal boxes. This is the other way around. And if I build this it will be optimized for that specific venue and hopefully work for this purpose.
I build my PA gear to be simialr to a high Q loud 3 way hifi rig, with real, not 'phile drivers. If I can't plug it in at home and not be cringing, then it's not good enough.Znyper said:
My new PA mains willl be an Eminence 3015LF in 120L tuned to 40Hz, a 10NDA610 in a small sealed or aperiodic enclosure and a BMS 4552 - undecided on the flare. All active with LR24 at 350 / 1k2 (flare dependent). 500W for LF, 200W for the other two.
I was referring to Wavebour's domestic system with this comment. Far field LA's are fine. Power tapering does nothing to compensate to time of flight path length differences.
"There is an issue here you're not aware of. The stage where dance instructors stand, is a "hole in the wall" on the short side of the room. IF the room is 12 m (my approximation made entirely of of my memory) the echo would travel 12+12+3 m to the instructor. We already have this problem. That's a fact."
Concerning the echoes, you could try a diffusion device, so that the echoe will be broken into a diffuse soundfield. but honestly, i cant imagine echoes in a room filled with peoples. thats really strange, with so much damping material around. since you say they are there, i must be somehow wrong.
Try to put the devices so that the sound which hits the wall will be scattered. imagine the soundwaves as a ray of light and the walls as mirrors. this will help placing the diffusors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_(acoustics)
perhaps the allready tested speakers are allright, just the room is not.
Concerning the echoes, you could try a diffusion device, so that the echoe will be broken into a diffuse soundfield. but honestly, i cant imagine echoes in a room filled with peoples. thats really strange, with so much damping material around. since you say they are there, i must be somehow wrong.
Try to put the devices so that the sound which hits the wall will be scattered. imagine the soundwaves as a ray of light and the walls as mirrors. this will help placing the diffusors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_(acoustics)
perhaps the allready tested speakers are allright, just the room is not.
Brett said:
I thought it would make it a litte less obvious, though.. But a time delay will fix this if I can only get the right dispersion pattern. Making a curved baffle might be hard, but I don't mind trying of that's the way to go...
MaVo said:
Well I want to do that. The problem is we don't own this venue. We rent it on an hourly basis, and the owners may not want us to make alterations. But yes, you're right. The problem is more the room than anything else. The other 2.1 system would also sound a lot better with (at least) the back wall sonically damped. No question about it.
The current system still sucks bad, though..
I just wish there were another venue to use for us, but everything else is near perfect; location, price, floor quality, everything!
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