joe carrow said:
Honestly haven't followed the thread too close.
The bi-wiring isn't a big issue. If you buy high-price cables, then suit yourself. But if you have speakers with two pairs of binding posts, I can see no fault getting a professional speaker cable with four leads. There's no extra cost to speak of.
Having bagged the bi-wiring I must admit I have used quad cables on my new speakers.
Mainly because I wanted a robust, round cable to go into Speakon connectors and with a reasonably low resistance.
So I doubled the conductors up in a quad cable.
It turns out the twisted quad arrangement has a slightly lower inductance than equivalent cross section with only 2 wires, the difference is probably completely inaudible.
Here is something to consider:
If you have one thing that is only just inaudible, and another separate thing that is only just inaudible, and both of these inaudible things happen to affect the sound the same way, If you change both of these things then you DO have an audible improvement.
Of course you need to bear in mind some of the "improvements" out there actually make things worse.
If it doesn't make it worse (a different thing to "does make it better") and it's cheap give it a go.
Mainly because I wanted a robust, round cable to go into Speakon connectors and with a reasonably low resistance.
So I doubled the conductors up in a quad cable.
It turns out the twisted quad arrangement has a slightly lower inductance than equivalent cross section with only 2 wires, the difference is probably completely inaudible.
Here is something to consider:
If you have one thing that is only just inaudible, and another separate thing that is only just inaudible, and both of these inaudible things happen to affect the sound the same way, If you change both of these things then you DO have an audible improvement.
Of course you need to bear in mind some of the "improvements" out there actually make things worse.
If it doesn't make it worse (a different thing to "does make it better") and it's cheap give it a go.
Paranoia and anxiety are all the snake oil business has. And the snake oil companies always expose themselves by contradicting themselves. The truth never contradict itself.
The might say so and so makes a huge improvement in your sound system. You try and cannot hear any difference. Then they tell you it's because your system isn't good enough. You need a very revealing system to hear any difference, they tell you. What about the huge difference, you ask? As it turns out, it wasn't huge at all, if there even is one.
The might say so and so makes a huge improvement in your sound system. You try and cannot hear any difference. Then they tell you it's because your system isn't good enough. You need a very revealing system to hear any difference, they tell you. What about the huge difference, you ask? As it turns out, it wasn't huge at all, if there even is one.
AndrewT said:
I looked up my post and didn't see the word 'bad' in there anywhere. Or regard the amp as 'failing'. I was just saying the combination worked like this when I did this.
To further elucidate, I've also used this amp (since sold by the wonders of eBay) single and biwired on a number of other speakers and had no problems (and no audible differences either). I've also used the Elacs with a number of other amplifiers, both bi- and single wired also with no audible differences. I have had 'problems' with the speaker due to a really low impedance point somewhere in the mid-bass, (told to me, rather than being measured for my pair - at about 1.8ohms). Generally, unless the amp has some real grunt, then it sounds weak and muddy in the lower mid-bass. I don't regard this as a fault as the voicing is so nice when it's working.
But, in the example posted, the amplifier/speaker combination improved audibly when bi-wired, over single wired.
So, I've already got 2 pairs of 10ga no-name speaker cable and the Elacs are always bi-wired. I don't know if it'll improve anything but I don't have to spend any more money if it does...
After reading Nelson Pass' 1980 article, the extra capacitance, reduced resistance and reduced inductance should have very little effect - so I suspect what I heard was a result of something else. But I don't know what.
I've no idea if it is audible with music. I am also not concerned about whether it is or isn't.MJL21193 said:
Why? Do the math, it supports what I have stated. It requires only a little algebra, Kirchhoffs law, and the calculation of resistive dissipation loss..it's not rocket science..MJL21193 said:
Do the math. I am not interested in voodoo, nor in being glibly passed off by you.MJL21193 said:
If you are interested in learning it, I can provide you links to other discussions where I detail the analysis..
btw, love the die pic..but it's such a tiny chip, and its....nekkid.
Cheers, John
and I maintain that while the math will show that there might be a difference, it is a phenomenon way below audibility. Anybody stating the contrary, that the math indicates audible differences - please prove their hypothesis.
Which I have tested and for me it is falsified - sufficient for me not to consider wiring of any importance any longer - bi, tri, interconnect, power or whatever else.
jneutron said:
Sorry if I sounded glib to you, but my point is that this is a dIY audio forum, therefore a valid question is whether it's detectable with the human ear. I am interested in that.
I don't want to do the math, I already have enough to do.
I appreciate the kind offer to educate me on these issues, but again, if it's not an audible phenominom, then I'm not interested.
Half of the threads on this forum degenerate at some point into discussion of factors that play an infinitely small part.
It's good to put things into perspective.
audio-kraut said:
The math says the error signals are significant in level, if you dissipate 5% of your power in the wires (russel's recommended maximum run resistance), the error component is indeed, 5%. 5% error means it should be considered as a possibility. The numbers do not in themselves show audibility. If the level of effect were really small, like several orders of magnitude below human thresholds, then of course the numbers would rule audibility out.
MJL21193 said:
Detectibility (or not) with the human ear is absolutely the end goal.
I have merely pointed out the error component which arises as a result of using one wire to feed a frequency selective branching circuit.
The analysis requires nothing in excess of high school math or electronics, yet the analysis and results are so contrary to what has been taught over the years as to be soundly rejected without consideration or understanding, as you did (that twas the glib part)..(don't worry, you have lots of company).
Not a problem. It is posted so that others can realize what is actually happening to the signal, and to allow others to figure out a test to determine audibility of this class of error.MJL21193 said:
MJL21193 said:
Concur. Too many cannot accept the view of others.
Cheers, John
Please dont ask me to do the maths.... But here are my experiances.
Bi-wiring makes a small improvement to the sound in a lot of speakers. I used to sell hi fi and have tried the difference. The best test is to biwire with the speaker terminals still wired together, then remove the jump leads/pins and listen again. The sound difference is not night and day, but in most cases that I tried, it was audible to some degree or another. You also have the opportunity to run different types of runs for the tweeters and the bass drivers so can tune the sound to your liking allegedly, I say allegedly, because I was able to try all sorts of different combinations in my mission 753's and never managed to find a combination that did not in some way degrade the sound. Using two lengths of same model cable always gave better results in my case.
Bi-amping through the speakers passive crossover makes a greater difference in the sound. I recently built a gainclone with 4 amp stages and moving from one amp per speaker to two amps per speaker made a very worthwhile difference to the sound. The clarity improved dramatically especially in the bass which went deeper, and was far more controlled. This set up made the music seem far more dramatic and engaging. I had a bit of time to grow used to having just two amp stages before going to four. I am most pleased with the result.
The caveat is of course that if your buying your kit, in one go at dealer prices, you are left with that decision, is it better to buy 2 amps at x price or one amp at 2x price. That is fair enough, but I for one have never bought hi fi that way! A more likely scenario for me at least is that I am faced with the decision I have an amp I bought at x price and I want to upgrade. Do I sell my amp and get a fraction of x price and then buy amp at 2x or do I purchase a second amp at x price minus the end of line discount etc. Bi amping then becomes a cheaper option that gets me a significant improvement for less money
When your building your own amps the effect becomes more noticable. My 4 amp gainclone runs off of one supply. Adding those two extra amps proportionally added little to the overall cost of the amp. I got a significant improvement in exchange and IMHO I made the best decision in designing it this way.
I have not tried active bi amping, but I can see that it if implemented correctly surely holds the possibility of even greater results again. My Missions have 5 drivers per speaker, I could and may go to a 10 amp active crossover arrangement in the future. But for now I am focussing on upgrading the passive crossover.
The technical arguement will rage on long after this thread has died, My advice... use your ears...
Bi-wiring makes a small improvement to the sound in a lot of speakers. I used to sell hi fi and have tried the difference. The best test is to biwire with the speaker terminals still wired together, then remove the jump leads/pins and listen again. The sound difference is not night and day, but in most cases that I tried, it was audible to some degree or another. You also have the opportunity to run different types of runs for the tweeters and the bass drivers so can tune the sound to your liking allegedly, I say allegedly, because I was able to try all sorts of different combinations in my mission 753's and never managed to find a combination that did not in some way degrade the sound. Using two lengths of same model cable always gave better results in my case.
Bi-amping through the speakers passive crossover makes a greater difference in the sound. I recently built a gainclone with 4 amp stages and moving from one amp per speaker to two amps per speaker made a very worthwhile difference to the sound. The clarity improved dramatically especially in the bass which went deeper, and was far more controlled. This set up made the music seem far more dramatic and engaging. I had a bit of time to grow used to having just two amp stages before going to four. I am most pleased with the result.
The caveat is of course that if your buying your kit, in one go at dealer prices, you are left with that decision, is it better to buy 2 amps at x price or one amp at 2x price. That is fair enough, but I for one have never bought hi fi that way! A more likely scenario for me at least is that I am faced with the decision I have an amp I bought at x price and I want to upgrade. Do I sell my amp and get a fraction of x price and then buy amp at 2x or do I purchase a second amp at x price minus the end of line discount etc. Bi amping then becomes a cheaper option that gets me a significant improvement for less money
When your building your own amps the effect becomes more noticable. My 4 amp gainclone runs off of one supply. Adding those two extra amps proportionally added little to the overall cost of the amp. I got a significant improvement in exchange and IMHO I made the best decision in designing it this way.
I have not tried active bi amping, but I can see that it if implemented correctly surely holds the possibility of even greater results again. My Missions have 5 drivers per speaker, I could and may go to a 10 amp active crossover arrangement in the future. But for now I am focussing on upgrading the passive crossover.
The technical arguement will rage on long after this thread has died, My advice... use your ears...
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