Illustrating quite clearly that you don't understand the subject at all. If you never knew the price, had someone else pay for it and there was no indication of the value of item in question it might be true. Just because you aren't consciously concerned by the cost doesn't mean it isn't a factor in unconscious thought. Claiming that it is would be akin to claiming that you can control the rate your hair grows, it has nothing to do with your personal preferences or what you consciously value in a product. Even if you steer away from expensive products it doesn't mean the cost of the item wasn't a factor, only that it wasn't the deciding factor when it came to the subconscious evaluation. Just like how people find a 10$ bottle off water tastes better than a 2$ one, or a needle is more likely to provide medical results than a pill will. Any information regardless of how irrelevant you might consider it to be is likely to have an impact when you're making a irrational comparison. The only exceptions to the rule are people tho don't process stimuli with their brains, but who knows maybe you really do think out of a different part of your anatomy.
Your the one who doesn't get it. A rationale that doesn't equal your own does not equal irrational.
Walking through life looking for enjoyment in the things around you.
Walking through life looking to belittle anything that doesn't fit squarely centered in your sensibilities with no experiences to fortify those sensibilities.
I will always go with the first option because I used to think like you and after realizing I was missing out on some things I decided to do what I want. Nestle water doesn't taste like Fuji water. I know because I have tried them. You on the other hand assume way too many things. Experience something and let me know how it was. But don't tell me what I enjoy is mere placebo because your not willing to try it because you don't understand it because your experiences are assumed and not true experience.
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Rationale is inherently conscious. You are once again making the mistake in thinking you have control over the unconscious mind. You have no more control over your unconscious thought process then you do over the smell of your farts. When you can fart strawberry on command I'll gladly concede your point.
Edit: I felt like expanding this statement. By it's very definition it's unconscious. Anything that's unconscious is by definition outside the realm of conscious control the same way you can never know something about the unknown universe. By it's definition if it's known it can't be unknown. Claiming you have control over unconscious actions is akin to claiming you know something that can't be known.
This is a false dichotomy. I really don't even have to break down that response because it's simply bollocks. Do you even bother reading your own replies before posting? Maybe thinking things out a little before offering a retort? Trust me it goes a long way.
You sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum. You accuse me of making assumptions only to make unsubstantiated declarations about myself and my motivations. Here's the problem, the part I italicized (besides being largely false) has nothing to do with the premise. Once again, even if everything you said was true, which it clearly isn't, even if I "don't understand it because your experiences are assumed and not true experience" doesn't change the fact, the fact, the fact, that both you and I are both subject to product bias. You can complain all you want about my personal motivations or make up stuff about what I have and haven't tested first hand but in the end none of that has any bearing on a clearly objective issue. You experience product bias like everyone else, no one has provided even a basic amount of evidence to substantiate the claims that are being thrown around, claiming otherwise is to ignore reality. With nothing to support your claim there's no way to differentiate it from people who make claims about aliens, bigfoot or magic. No amount of fit throwing will change this in the same way that throwing a fit wouldn't change the fact that 5+5=10.
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I'm always conscious when I do comparative listening.
Hey a Chevy is just a waste of money, you must check my mountain bike....
You're also unconsciously listening when you make comparisons. It's the reason why subliminal messaging is possible.I'm always conscious when I do comparative listening.
Your ability to discern product bias in other people is the biggest ** in the history of man kind.
Did the Fuji water taste better or different or was it product bias. It is impossible for you to know the answer to that question. You are the one chasing Bigfoot if you think you know when product bias is a factor and when it is not.
I think maybe you need to follow your own advice. You routinely claim to know things you that are impossible for you to know and base your logic on said knowledge. Once again the same example, you point out that people are influenced by product bias when selecting a $10 dollar bottle of water over a $2 dollar bottle because you feel water is water. Have you tried all sorts of water? Do you think for one second that if you found them to be indistinguishable that other people must be exactly like you and suffering from product bias????? WTF
Repeat after me, "I DONT GET TO DECIDE WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE TO CLAIM WHEN SOMEONE IS SUFFERING FROM PRODUCT BIAS, THEREFORE IS HAS LITTLE TO NO MEANING IN CONTEXT TO THIS THREAD".
So now that I have explained to you why you don't get to be the judge of when product bias is applicable I need to ask you what bearing does product bias have on this thread?
Why would anyone come to a forum that is written and viewed with your eyeballs to discuss "AUDIO" if no one knew what they were hearing?
BTW: Project your childish accusations somewhere else. You seem to know moods from a few paragraphs when we all know that too is impossible. I would recommend you slow down and go back and re-read the last few pages.
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I'm always conscious when I do comparative listening.
Me too!
Hey a Chevy is just a waste of money, you must check my mountain bike....
Bravo, a man who knows what he likes.
Hey Kareface, wait till you see my signature, lots there to get your juices flowing.
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I had a bad cable, replaced with a good one.
Had a good cable, replaced with a better one.
HAd an even better cable, replaced with a very expensive, super pure quality, extremely fantastic cable.
At the time I was very pleased to rid the system of the 50yr+ Zenith RCA cables.
Every cable tried [except of course the bad old Zenith 'minimist' type], performed quite nicely.
I began sorting through old records and have tried various speakers/amps, they all sound at least a little different [go figure].
for me it began to become more and more about the content, and listening with more than 1 person absorbing it seems to help keep interests high.
Had a good cable, replaced with a better one.
HAd an even better cable, replaced with a very expensive, super pure quality, extremely fantastic cable.
At the time I was very pleased to rid the system of the 50yr+ Zenith RCA cables.
Every cable tried [except of course the bad old Zenith 'minimist' type], performed quite nicely.
I began sorting through old records and have tried various speakers/amps, they all sound at least a little different [go figure].
for me it began to become more and more about the content, and listening with more than 1 person absorbing it seems to help keep interests high.
I was citing an example from the post earlier talking about the bottled water test where they made fake bottled waters and filled them with hose water. People who tasted them described each of the waters differently, "I can really taste the glacier". This is clearly product bias because the only difference between the water was the bottles they put them in and the price. But hay, at least you didn't pass up a chance at proving yourself wrong once again.
Here, let me go get the link so you we can get you on the same page.
YouTube - The Truth About Bottled Water
Actually I don't have to be, there's a pretty clear definition of when it's applicable, which is always when it comes to subjectivity. Even decisions that are based on facts will have some influence of bias, but the advantages of facts is even if the decision was made on the basis of a bias if his facts are wrong he can't prove himself to be right. You should understand this seeing this is the exact scenario you're in. You can rehash the same arguments all you want and slander me till you're blue in the face but the fact is you have nothing to stand on.
Knowing what you hear and recognizing the fact that we're all subject to the same potential for irrational bias are apples and orange. I described in detail my listening preferences and how they can be substantiated with measurements. Simply knowing what you like doesn't equate to being able to hear things that doesn't exist.
That wasn't a declaration that you were actually a child and were having a literal temper tantrum, that was the clearly subjective assessment that your response was allegorically so. This is my personal assessment of your response, it very likely could have nothing to do with reality. This is very different from making the baseless assertions about my intent. Either way it isn't constructive to the debate, I'll resend the comments to avoid getting off track.
Repeat after me, bias is a fact of life and trying to pretend otherwise is the definition of ignorance. You don't get to have your own facts, neither do I.
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Me too!
Bravo, a man who knows what he likes.
Hey Kareface, wait till you see my signature, lots there to get your juices flowing.
Your not related to Curly, per chance?
I'd like to expand on this. Again, personal bias will influence any decision to some degree. The problem becomes when there's no tangible way to differentiate between products, extraneous attributes can and will be the exclusive basis for comparison. This is unconscious, you have no control over this fact. It might be water tasting different or speaker cables making you hear things. Even if the perception is different the source is not, so it wouldn't matter if you paid 10 cents or $10 for the water, the source isn't the cause of the difference, it's your mind.
And that's why we do double blind tests - remove bias. No DBT I know of has ever proven that different cables sound differently.
This is sometimes quoted as a disadvantage of DBT's. If the subject can not hear any difference (either because there is none, or if the two DUTs are really the same piece of equipment) he still will be under pressure to make a selection because most subject would like to avoid a risk of not noting a difference if there is one. But there are no extraneous clues available either. I can imagine this is a stressfull situation, albeit self-induced. This may lead to unreliable outcomes.
jd
That's the beauty of it. Making random choices will produce the same results as "no difference audible".
And for the end user it all boils down to using your ears to decide what makes you happy. We are talking about listening devices for musical enjoyment right? And hey, if you or anyone else wants to do blind testing when making decisions then right on man. But I don't think its very realistic for some of these guys to say stuff like "All cables sound alike" or my favorite "Its your responsibility to provide proof" like we are in a classroom doing a science experiment and we must use scientific protocol and etiquette.
Hey Kareface, the only reason people bring up product bias in a cable thread is to use it as some kind of tool for convincing people all cables sound alike when we both know the mention of product bias can be introduced only as a theory since you don't have information on everyone and every piece of equipment. Its a circle jerk. It doesn't really have any bearing since it can neither be controlled or tested in a reasonable fashion as it pertains to the discussion. What is it that you want? Everyone to study up on electronics and buy some equipment and test every available aspect of their stereo equipment and to then make decisions only based on that information and fully disregard what they hear? Don't you think if that were reasonable, completely effective, and always worked then more people would be doing that and spending less time here posting in a 13 thousand 5 hundred plus thread posting about a topic that is no closer to some kind of solution or agreement than it was on the first page??? I'm telling people not to worry about things they cannot or will not control to forget blind testing as it is confusing and often in audio does not have much to offer to choose a group of familiar music and listen to it as much as possible over a long period of time and to then see how they feel about something or everything in the rack. See what I am saying? If product bias was really viable for making a point as it pertains to this thread then this thread wound not be so long, super long just like every other thread like it. You wanna tell us how your measurements helped your setup and what you hear as a result then bravo. If not then why even bother. You may even discover lots of people who have commonalities and share your opinions and learn something from them. The flip side of that coin is I can do the same and find people who agree with me and have similar experiences to mine and I can learn from them and them from me. Isn't that a bit more realistic?
You have plans for a homemade amp for your surround rig?
I think your reading too much into what I am saying too, I dont really think product bias does not exist, I was in sales for 14 years and I know for a fact it does. I just don't think its reasonable to use it to say "All differences among cables are product bias" since no one has ever proved they don't affect the sound of your equipment.
Hey Kareface, the only reason people bring up product bias in a cable thread is to use it as some kind of tool for convincing people all cables sound alike when we both know the mention of product bias can be introduced only as a theory since you don't have information on everyone and every piece of equipment. Its a circle jerk. It doesn't really have any bearing since it can neither be controlled or tested in a reasonable fashion as it pertains to the discussion. What is it that you want? Everyone to study up on electronics and buy some equipment and test every available aspect of their stereo equipment and to then make decisions only based on that information and fully disregard what they hear? Don't you think if that were reasonable, completely effective, and always worked then more people would be doing that and spending less time here posting in a 13 thousand 5 hundred plus thread posting about a topic that is no closer to some kind of solution or agreement than it was on the first page??? I'm telling people not to worry about things they cannot or will not control to forget blind testing as it is confusing and often in audio does not have much to offer to choose a group of familiar music and listen to it as much as possible over a long period of time and to then see how they feel about something or everything in the rack. See what I am saying? If product bias was really viable for making a point as it pertains to this thread then this thread wound not be so long, super long just like every other thread like it. You wanna tell us how your measurements helped your setup and what you hear as a result then bravo. If not then why even bother. You may even discover lots of people who have commonalities and share your opinions and learn something from them. The flip side of that coin is I can do the same and find people who agree with me and have similar experiences to mine and I can learn from them and them from me. Isn't that a bit more realistic?
You have plans for a homemade amp for your surround rig?
I think your reading too much into what I am saying too, I dont really think product bias does not exist, I was in sales for 14 years and I know for a fact it does. I just don't think its reasonable to use it to say "All differences among cables are product bias" since no one has ever proved they don't affect the sound of your equipment.
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The reason we use evidence and facts as a basis for finding the most accurate representation of reality is because it's show to be the most effective method, in or outside of the classroom. I don't mind if you don't adhere to the Socratic method but that doesn't mean anyone has to respect claims made outside of that realm. If I make the claim different labels on water bottles changes the taste of the water I'm obliged to support that claim with evidence. People ask for evidence because you're making a claim that isn't substantiated. If you don't want people to ask you for verification you should stop propagating misinformation.
Holy facts batman. I also don't know that there isn't a leprechaun hidden under every possible rock, however I still don't believe in leprechauns. Secondly product bias doesn't prove that cables sound identical, you are making a silly straw man here. Product bias proves that we are capable of perceiving differences that might not exist at the source. I don't have to disprove that every possible combination of hardware when used in conjunction with specific brands of cabling produce different results anymore then I would have to check under each rock to prove there's no leprechauns. I'm not responsible, nor anyone else for that matter, to disprove a claim that hasn't met the burden of evidence. If and when you can provide the evidence to support the claim I'll be happy to catch some lucky charms, but until then all you are doing is spreading baseless information.
No, it can't be controlled to your liking. You can easily setup a DBT and it has been done before, but when the results are contrary to your expectations you ignore the results and chock it up to the test or the people involved. It's ironic really, because if the test results were different you'd be waving them around to support your case, rightfully so. The tests have been done, if you don't agree with them you're welcome to fund your own study, just make sure a creditable 3rd party is responsible for the criteria of the test.
I've told you several times now that I don't calibrate by measurement alone, and that knowing what you like and how it's represented in the measurements of a room is a valuable piece of knowledge. Why do you propagate this false impression that the pro-reality crowd only wants shackle the listeners as if we'll force everyone to listen to some standardized average of what we expect to be ideal. You seem to like exaggerating things because this has nothing to do with anything that I've said and instead of repeating myself I'll just have you go back and read exactly what I typed. This time try to keep in in context.
Again, you are outright lying about others expectations of the cable crowd. Don't be so dramatic.
What I'm saying is that's all well and good as long as you don't then proceed to make claims that have no basis in reality. The reason the thread made it to 1300+ pages is the continued propagation of misinformation by people like yourself. You're welcome to your opinion but when you propagate it, you'll be subject to silly things like facts.
That would be a non-sequitur. One doesn't necessarily relate to the other. Product bias exists, it doesn't matter if people are willing to accept it, it's there. The length of the thread has nothing to do with the value of the arguments, only the willingness of people to disregard them. I don't really care what you personally do with your cables. I'm only interested in the public understanding, the informational zeitgeist. You are welcome to your opinion on any subjective matters, but you aren't welcome to your own facts. I don't like it when anyone makes stuff up, no matter what it's in regard too. If this was a bottled water forum I'd be making the same arguments.
Edit: This is also something I've seen commonly when people run out of points. You instead turn to "we'll have our opinions and you'll have yours". You are always welcome to your own opinions, but you don't get to have your own facts. If you want to personally believe something, more power to you. However don't expect to express an opinion during a public discourse and not expect to be challenged. You don't have a right to your own facts, and the fact is the differences you claim to hear don't exist as far as reality is concerned.
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