Absolutely it does. If your system is not subjectively capable of resolving the finest details, it would explain the reason that you are not hearing any differences in cables. A mid-fi amplifier will not do what a state of the art amplifier is capable of, at least not any that I have ran across in all my years.
The best system are better due to their ability to better remove themselves, if you will, from the music being played thru them. Less of a veil between the listener and the music. If the system can not resolve low level details without artifacts, it will mask any subtle differences that might exist. Like looking through a dirty pane of glass, the view will be distorted and details obscured very easily.
Science does not quantify ones experience. Subjectivity is the root of all evil and the mind is not be trusted.
How in the world did the human race ever advance to where it is today with out trusting our minds? I am a terrible human being
Curly,
You hit the nail. The human race has come to where it is precisely because its brain developed capabilities to interprete it's senses. We don't 'hear' the air vibrations on our ear drums. We 'hear' (we experience the sensation, we percieve) the interpretation of that by the brain, as part of our overall world view that includes any other sensory input, memory, expectations and experience. This is scientific fact that can be verified easily with 'net access.
It is also an intuitively unlikely situation. After all, we clearly 'hear' those piano notes, don't we? No, we don't. But because it is so intuitively unlikely, almost nobody gives even passing thought to the difference between hearing and perceiving. So this conflict will never be resolved - those ignoring perception will always maintain that they hear what they hear, while those that did their homework will know it isn't but have no means to convince the others....
jd
Thats perhaps the reason why DBT's doesn't seem to show differences, I sincerely hope the people that actually did these tests you are talking about, have at least done some blind testing themselves, if not, I can clearly understand why I've not seen a properly performed test yet.
Of course it does, how can you make realistic comments on a Ferrari if you have never driven one?
Your cables seems to be well chosen.
Jan, have you read about the blind young guy that 'see' with his ears? Remarkable what the brain is capable of.
SY:
Further, I consider consciousness to be an emergent property of the brain functioning, not a physical property.
Panikos K:
) - no-one's every experienced one, but we can certainly detect and see them and we can certainly talk about them. And I don't need to have driven, owned or even touched a Ferrari to talk about one! I can reflect on many of the physical properties of a Ferrari and I can, for instance, refute that any Ferrari ever did 0-60mph in 1second, without having experienced driving one. And again, likewise, cables... I don't need to try an expensive cable to know it's physical range or properties and I don't need to have been in or performed a DBT to understand how a DBT works.
I definitely disagree with you there! People can do routinely hear things whilst unconscious. More to our point, the 'ear-brain mechanism' is a collection of biological components with air pressure variations as input and 'there was a sound' as output. Whether the output is conciously noted or not is important, of course, but where there is no 'there is a sound' output it's irrelevant if the person is conscious or not.
Further, I consider consciousness to be an emergent property of the brain functioning, not a physical property.
Panikos K:
Well, not's confuse ourselves. I'm merely refuting the claim that you have to have 'experience' of a phenomenon in order to discuss it. Take black holes (a recurring theme
) - no-one's every experienced one, but we can certainly detect and see them and we can certainly talk about them. And I don't need to have driven, owned or even touched a Ferrari to talk about one! I can reflect on many of the physical properties of a Ferrari and I can, for instance, refute that any Ferrari ever did 0-60mph in 1second, without having experienced driving one. And again, likewise, cables... I don't need to try an expensive cable to know it's physical range or properties and I don't need to have been in or performed a DBT to understand how a DBT works.Panikos K:
[Edit] - trying to keep posts to a minimum here. Regarding my cable choices - it should be clear I practise what I preach I bought the speaker cable because it was cheap and of semi-decent wire guage and of the right length. I got it 2nd hand off eBay, and the £10 price for 20ms included post and packing costs . For that, I can wire up two pairs of speakers to my amplifier with room to spare, just what I wanted. My interconnect lead is ancient, I have no idea even where it is from - I found it in my computer parts box.
I missed your reply. No, I did not audition any component of my system before buying. If it's relevant to know how I arrived at my purchasing decisions I'll tell you, but first you have to say how it helps determine whether people can hear differences between cables. I'm quite happy to discuss what I was thinking when I bought this system, but I believe that topic is not germane to this thread and I don't want the topic derailed like that.
[Edit] - trying to keep posts to a minimum here. Regarding my cable choices - it should be clear I practise what I preach
I bought the speaker cable because it was cheap and of semi-decent wire guage and of the right length. I got it 2nd hand off eBay, and the £10 price for 20ms included post and packing costs . For that, I can wire up two pairs of speakers to my amplifier with room to spare, just what I wanted. My interconnect lead is ancient, I have no idea even where it is from - I found it in my computer parts box.
Last edited:
The brain is not only more capable than we imagine, it is even more capable than we can imagine, to paraphrase someone else (forgot who).
Incidently, Jean Hiraga, now-retired Chief Editor of the French L'Audiophile had an ETF presentation about the ear, the brain and the history of research leading to our current understanding of the system. One of the pecularities that almost nobody knows (and it's blissfull ignorance for many) is the feedback mechanism in the brain-ear system as illustrated in the attached. Note the operative word 'simplified'
jd
Attachments
Last edited:
Not the way it works Jan. If I claim to hear cable differences it's not as a scientifically proven fact and without evidence you have no obligation to accept my claim on any level. That's understood. If you claim tests disproving cables are audible have been done and the question is settled - preferably to the same standard other fields of science such as medicine or physics require - you are, if representing science, burdened with bringing those results forward. I've made this same request for close to a decade now without anyone offering more than one or two very questionable audio club demonstrations. If physics accepted theories on this standard of proof we'd still be tuning models for the ether.
Curly Woods:
Don't get me wrong, I've heard and appreciate what high-end hifi can do and I long for the day I have a few of those systems. But you should understand that I'm also a classic hifi enthusiast - especially for classic Japanese stuff (hence why I have a Yamaha C-85/M-85). My dream HT system would have NO analogue cables in it, either...
The reason I'm not hearing differences is because I'm not listening for them! I'm way too busy enjoying the music.
Don't get me wrong, I've heard and appreciate what high-end hifi can do and I long for the day I have a few of those systems. But you should understand that I'm also a classic hifi enthusiast - especially for classic Japanese stuff (hence why I have a Yamaha C-85/M-85). My dream HT system would have NO analogue cables in it, either...
Happily untrained
Hi all
From reading some of this thread, I understand that if I train my ears properly I will no longer be happy listening to music unless I spend lots of money on fancy equipment. But then even the cables will start to sound bad, and after I spend more money on fancy wire, then something else will be "not quite right", and so on ....
No thanks
I like my happy, untrained ears
Why does anybody want special "golden" ears that allow them to NOT enjoy music?
Regards - Godfrey
Hi all
From reading some of this thread, I understand that if I train my ears properly I will no longer be happy listening to music unless I spend lots of money on fancy equipment. But then even the cables will start to sound bad, and after I spend more money on fancy wire, then something else will be "not quite right", and so on ....
No thanks
I like my happy, untrained ears
Why does anybody want special "golden" ears that allow them to NOT enjoy music?
Regards - Godfrey
Good grief!!! What do you think the B in DBT stands for??? In any case, that DBTs confirm theory isn't a problem - they don't show differences because there are no differences, as theory shows. Again, when you realise that complex impedance values, skin effect, group delay effects in audio cables all provably (as I've linked several times now) show that the maximum result of them is an imperctible 0.025dB roll-off at 20kHz just goes to show there's no rational reason to suppose there might be audible differences. And you don't need to do *DBT* tests to confirm the theory. Just do some basic maths and some basic electrical measurements and you can see for yourself. DBTs prove subjectively arrived at results are false, that's all. Maths and physics is what proves that cables don't have audible differences.
Thats perhaps the reason why DBT's doesn't seem to show differences, I sincerely hope the people that actually did these tests you are talking about, have at least done some blind testing themselves, if not, I can clearly understand why I've not seen a properly performed test yet.
Panikos K:
[Edit] - trying to keep posts to a minimum here. Regarding my cable choices - it should be clear I practise what I preach
Well,no doubt,you are very consistent to your......... preaching
rdf:
Godfrey - well said man
Michaelson-Morley dispensed with belief in the aether. It was a test that showed that the aether - as conceived - did not exist. Likewise DBTs have shown that complex audio properties of cables - as conceived - do not exist. Physics is doing fine. How're your subjective opinion's holding up again? Oh wait, you just conceded they don't. That's understood, right?
Godfrey - well said man
- Status
- Not open for further replies.