Your point is an exaggeration and you might not be reading your own attachment properly because there is no truth in saying one cable can be 20dBs lower then another cable...none at all!!
First, where have I called anyone a name....that has been your job it seems on here.
Nor do I care about anyone's beliefs...this is NOT RELIGION! This to me is all about audio science and if you think you heard a difference then it should be validated...if you choose not to go through some extra work that is your decisions but again all I ask is that people TRY to control all the external variables involved.
As for too many people to be brainwashed.....more people own BOSE then any high end system PERIOD. Yes people can be EASILY fooled in the world of audio. Its well known that Audio is just like the diet pill market in terms of subjectivity and placebo effects. Education is key, Im ready to learn, are you?
You can talk around the simple idea of CONTROLLING the listening tests with all comments but its still the crux of the issue.
Do you control your listening tests properly?
OK Doug I should not have called you out for the name calling. I am just a little tired of the constant innuendo that the moderators allow in this forum. My apology to you for that. I am not here to create issues, but it is obvious that somewhere we have a disconnect between what people hear and how it is proven. That is all that I am saying.
I have already outlined how I conduct my personal listening tests. They work for me and others.
Again, I have no emotion over this or anything in audio. Im purely a student of audio science (Im in my 40s but I love learning) so I have no care really about systems. I own 10 AVRs, 6 pre/pros, I build speakers, I have purchased lots of EQs, amps, etc JUST to tinker (I have over 20K in electronics sitting in my Garage). I have no critical listening needs but I do test and I do believe I control my tests properly and with that I can put money behind my opinion that you would not hear the difference you think you hear in a properly controlled test.
You keep saying we are the ones that are closeminded but its the reverse. We will change our minds when the proof exists but that means we have to be shown accurate data. Zero controlled listening tests have never produced differences. Measurement differences have never been shown to be actually audiable at all, this includes what Passion posted.
I did miss how you do your listening tests but if you still know the brand, still know the price tag, still see the cable. It IS NOT a valid test.
For those who are stubborn and post 100 times "I hear a difference" thinking at some point others will just give up why not just do the properly controlled tests?
Is it that hard? Is there a fear in doing one?
You do realize that if I was a moderator reading all this I would have sent you a PM to keep it on topic. You have posted the most insults in the last 10 pages. If anything you are the only one to show anger.
If you want to talk about cables making a difference you do have to get into the science behind it, there is no way around that. If you do not want to get into the science then maybe it isnt a topic you can debate.
Understanding
Sorry, you still don't understand my measurements...
20dB (about 10 times) is the difference in the magnitude of losses between cable A and cable B. In cable A looses are 93dB below the input signal, while in cable B losses are 112 db below the same input signal. That 19dB difference is the actual difference, not using any scaling or tricks to show it in a misleading way. You just have to understand what these measurements mean (and then they'll be easy to accept.)
Best,
R
Sorry, you still don't understand my measurements...
20dB (about 10 times) is the difference in the magnitude of losses between cable A and cable B. In cable A looses are 93dB below the input signal, while in cable B losses are 112 db below the same input signal. That 19dB difference is the actual difference, not using any scaling or tricks to show it in a misleading way. You just have to understand what these measurements mean (and then they'll be easy to accept.)
Best,
R
I am trying to find out why these differences exist. I have nothing to prove here Doug. I simply am trying to find out the reason why they exist is all. My tirades were over the treatment that I and others have had to deal with because we believe other than you and others here. The innuendo's that are expressed are not helping this issue and I am sorry if you think otherwise. I am tired of hearing them. Yes I got angry, any one would if they were continually called out as not being able to prove something. What do I have to prove? I know what I hear as do others. We are seeking answers. Plain and simple. Please lets keep this civil.
I understand the chart, you were not wording it right. Besides, those levels are not audible as I posted already.
Im always civil but Im blunt and I think everyone online better have a thick skin because they should be called out.
Do the controlled listening tests then you can debate with me!
Cya!
Doug you should have posted that you do not hear them. Obviously Passion and others do.
Doug you said that I should be reported to a moderator as I was off topic. The name of this thread if read it correctly is "I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?". I happen to believe that they do. Was my response off topic I ask you?
beep
I thought you were interested in measurements (apparently not if they show that cables can be different from each other).
BTW, what a pleasant, open-minded, welcoming forum. Nice...
I thought you were interested in measurements (apparently not if they show that cables can be different from each other).
BTW, what a pleasant, open-minded, welcoming forum. Nice...
"People" is a pointless and unlucky generalization.Perhaps "people"who have no opinion on equipment even music yes,they can easily be fooled ,or buy Bose as you say because they have been brainwashed.Other people who know what they want from their systems,don't get fooled,and you know it very well.
Music needs education too you know and this education it is the key for solid and firm decisions in hi-fi.
As someone who surely belongs to your "people"scenario,I can tell you that no one has ever sold me anything.
What is this special thing that makes you immune to your brains temptations and ability to fool you?What is this special thing that allows you to have control over your brain?What is this silly thing that makes you feel so sure that when some real people are buying something you don't approve or fail to hear,are acting like zombies? Is it your LCR meter,or your CAT5?I am using both myself.I never use either when listening to music though.Listening to music has its natural tools.
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I like that for logic, then I must agree because more people drive Fords than Ferraris.
Post# 4068
"Is funny you keep posting Randi the weasel....Fremer is a complete butthole too about this, his passive/agressive ways makes me laugh.....you should try to be a little less hypocritical about one side since both sides took it down hill in an hurry.
From what I read Fremer has yet to do a proper DBT just to prove to himself that cables are not audibly different (if they do not alter the FR).
He has no reason too, he isnt in the business to be objective, logical or scientific.
Quote:
It wasn't Fremer who balked at supplying cables. It was Pear Audio.
Does it matter, Fremer should put up the $$$ since it would be so easy to win more....In the end Fremer was the pussy in my books...I would say it to his face too because I can
Damn, I have to get out of the dead horse beating"
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I did not attempt to tie any sonic differences to the measurements, my point were that I would expect to see only small differences in 'normal' measurements because of the nature of the differences we perceive.
Since you are an expert on measurements, we would appreciate suggestions how to measure detail and soundstage focus.
Hi,
When you're comparing apples and oranges, what do you expect? No difference?
IOW, what people are trying to get across here is that if you do listening tests you'd better know what it is you're evaluating.
Comparing two sets of cables where one shows a higher ohmic resistance per meter than the other is only going to tell you that one may be a little bit louder than the other.
Crank up the volume...
I can think of at least one high-end company manufacturing cables that adds an inordinate amount of series resistance due to the conductor material they use. Can't say it's a bad cable though.
Anyhow, stop this quixotic paranoia and just accept that listening tests without controlled data aren't going to cut it no matter how hard you wished it would.
Just trying to help, you know.
Cheers,
When you're comparing apples and oranges, what do you expect? No difference?
IOW, what people are trying to get across here is that if you do listening tests you'd better know what it is you're evaluating.
Comparing two sets of cables where one shows a higher ohmic resistance per meter than the other is only going to tell you that one may be a little bit louder than the other.
Crank up the volume...
I can think of at least one high-end company manufacturing cables that adds an inordinate amount of series resistance due to the conductor material they use. Can't say it's a bad cable though.
Anyhow, stop this quixotic paranoia and just accept that listening tests without controlled data aren't going to cut it no matter how hard you wished it would.
Just trying to help, you know.
Cheers,
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