Example is testing how many op-amp buffers you can put in a row before you can hear them. Useful if you are worried about an active cross-over messing up the sound. The answer was 5 last time it was tried.
Why would you think such a thing?
It just a preference. If it were not, tone controls would not exist.
But that doesn't have much to do with vinyl.
I never said I preferred the flat amp. Just that it was better from a fidelity perspective. For me better is objective prefer is subjective.
Just got back from holidays and was intrigued by the reference to low frequencies in Doug's first post.
The following is an observation that may (or may not) be relevant to the LP debate.
30yrs ago I had a medium-fi domestic set up. Good t/table, Stanton cart', Wienz parabolic tip, Nakamichi cassette deck, KEF speakers.
But in my day job I drove a lot and noticed that the lyrics always sounded clearer and more easily understood etc when I listened to homemade cassette tapes of my LP's in the car while I was driving.
One day I casually mentioned this to our young organist at church who is a trained musician and whose sister sang professionally etc.
Without hesitation she just said: "Oh yes, of course, if we ever want to focus on lyrics we always listen while driving......." (Apparently this phenomenon was well known, at least by her circle.)
I was puzzled. My car was NOT even medium-fi. Twin cones firing at my ankles at the front and into the rear comparment of a station-wagon (or "shooting brake" for the UK readers) another pair of 6x9" twin cones. These vehicles are generally even more noisy than conventional sedans.
But the only thought I had by way of a possible explanation was that the noise floor was assisting the clarity of vocals in in some way......counter intuitive but worth thinking about.
From my reading of HFN/RR etc I knew the noise spectrum in a motor vehicle was heavily biased towards low frequencies.
The only theory I could dream up myself was that we had somehow evolved to hear vocal frequencies more clearly in the presence of low frequency "noise" so as to assist communication and hence, human survival, when in battle, near earthquakes, waterfalls, storms etc, Anywhere that human safety was in danger in the presence of bass frequencies........
Anyone else got a similar observation or explanation and could it somehow be a factor in "appreciating" vinyl.
Cheers, Jonathan
The following is an observation that may (or may not) be relevant to the LP debate.
30yrs ago I had a medium-fi domestic set up. Good t/table, Stanton cart', Wienz parabolic tip, Nakamichi cassette deck, KEF speakers.
But in my day job I drove a lot and noticed that the lyrics always sounded clearer and more easily understood etc when I listened to homemade cassette tapes of my LP's in the car while I was driving.
One day I casually mentioned this to our young organist at church who is a trained musician and whose sister sang professionally etc.
Without hesitation she just said: "Oh yes, of course, if we ever want to focus on lyrics we always listen while driving......." (Apparently this phenomenon was well known, at least by her circle.)
I was puzzled. My car was NOT even medium-fi. Twin cones firing at my ankles at the front and into the rear comparment of a station-wagon (or "shooting brake" for the UK readers) another pair of 6x9" twin cones. These vehicles are generally even more noisy than conventional sedans.
But the only thought I had by way of a possible explanation was that the noise floor was assisting the clarity of vocals in in some way......counter intuitive but worth thinking about.
From my reading of HFN/RR etc I knew the noise spectrum in a motor vehicle was heavily biased towards low frequencies.
The only theory I could dream up myself was that we had somehow evolved to hear vocal frequencies more clearly in the presence of low frequency "noise" so as to assist communication and hence, human survival, when in battle, near earthquakes, waterfalls, storms etc, Anywhere that human safety was in danger in the presence of bass frequencies........
Anyone else got a similar observation or explanation and could it somehow be a factor in "appreciating" vinyl.
Cheers, Jonathan
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the thesis put forth in this thread is wrong imo. Vinyl has more accurate fidelity in terms of reproducing true analog recordings and traditional (non digital) instruments with more accurate dynamics and timbre. Cd will sound flat in comparison. The ambient noise may add to some 'atmosphere' (although I see no proof) but it is not the reason why we spin vinyl and put up with its issues.
Meaning more accurate. That is preferable to some, not to others. Just like vinyl vs digital.
But the fact that someone prefers accuracy over something else, is just that, a preference. Some swear that accuracy is the only valid approach, simply because they prefer it. And it is, you know, accurate - so it has to be better!.
If the flaws of vinyl can give the listener a closer emotional connection to the music, and a more realistic feeling, how can that not be "better"?
The work mentioned higher in the thread attempts to separate the sonic qualities of vinyl from the other parts of the experience. I'll be very interested to see if anyone actually has an FX box that gives a true vinyl sound to digital. And does that make it more enjoyable?
it does but for the sake of the current discussion (vinyl preferences amongst some) I would consider it to be a measure of transparency. For any parameter related to fidelity digital beats LP hands down.
Enjoyment, experience, anticipation, they are things that make vinyl enjoyable for many. For those who have kept every record they have bought can bring back a lot of teenage memories
+10
I posted the link to the online double blind test. Be my guest!
We really need people stepping up to the plate to get this sorted.
Jan
OK I can live with accurate as a synonym of better.
Accuracy is the only valid approach to high fidelity. Not the only approach for a home entertainment system. I've never had anything really accurate so I cannot yet tell if it is my nirvana or not. But I want an accurate starting point.But the fact that someone prefers accuracy over something else, is just that, a preference. Some swear that accuracy is the only valid approach, simply because they prefer it. And it is, you know, accurate - so it has to be better!.
Hello,
This is untrue. the first digital delay was the Lexicon Delta-T 101 introduced in 1970 and others followed quickly and were first informally and later with support from lathe manufacturers to replace the tape based system.
Best regards, Sir S
This is untrue. the first digital delay was the Lexicon Delta-T 101 introduced in 1970 and others followed quickly and were first informally and later with support from lathe manufacturers to replace the tape based system.
Best regards, Sir S
Only that when watching TV you can generally hear the lyrics more clearly. I do not know how much of that is EQ by the producers, how much is the midrange prominent response of cheap TV speakers and how much is the fact you can see their lips some of the time.
Hello,
I would suggest that is putting the cart before the horse. I would posit that Vinyl is enjoyable DESPITE its flaws.
If we look close enough, the performance available from LP if the recording, mastering and pressing has been handled well, is likely adequate for domestic music replay.
Yes, it has a dynamic range of maybe 74dB (between noise floor and the +14dB standardised maximum output level at 25cm/S), adequate at peak SPL's of 105dB where the noisefloor is around 31dB(A), easily masked by even quiet music.
It has several percent low order HD at high levels, however it has been repeatedly shown that such distortion, if audible at all, is benign and rarely perceived as objectionable.
Depending on the cutting lathe frequency response is compromised above 15khz but can extend past 25khz, getting speakers and room set-up that show less deviations above 15kHz than average cutting lathes is a challenge.
So non of the presumed flaws of the LP medium (or indeed magnetic tape) are particularly prejudicial to musical enjoyment.
If we want to give digital recordings the qualities that analogue ones are famed for, we cannot add the flaws of analogue systems back and presume this magically restores "analogueness".
It does not, it merely delivers the worst of both worlds, with non of the failings of digital recordings (see my earlier post) addressed and the undesirable characteristics of analogue systems added back.
Best regards, Sir S
I would suggest that is putting the cart before the horse. I would posit that Vinyl is enjoyable DESPITE its flaws.
If we look close enough, the performance available from LP if the recording, mastering and pressing has been handled well, is likely adequate for domestic music replay.
Yes, it has a dynamic range of maybe 74dB (between noise floor and the +14dB standardised maximum output level at 25cm/S), adequate at peak SPL's of 105dB where the noisefloor is around 31dB(A), easily masked by even quiet music.
It has several percent low order HD at high levels, however it has been repeatedly shown that such distortion, if audible at all, is benign and rarely perceived as objectionable.
Depending on the cutting lathe frequency response is compromised above 15khz but can extend past 25khz, getting speakers and room set-up that show less deviations above 15kHz than average cutting lathes is a challenge.
So non of the presumed flaws of the LP medium (or indeed magnetic tape) are particularly prejudicial to musical enjoyment.
If we want to give digital recordings the qualities that analogue ones are famed for, we cannot add the flaws of analogue systems back and presume this magically restores "analogueness".
It does not, it merely delivers the worst of both worlds, with non of the failings of digital recordings (see my earlier post) addressed and the undesirable characteristics of analogue systems added back.
Best regards, Sir S
Which one did Mike Ewins use?
Of course, even a perfect plug-in will not give the same mental preparation and state as the (non-auditory) vinyl ritual...
52 months of silent pondering and now two posts in one day !
Are we to be honoured, now that we have found your niche and started contributing?
Are we to be honoured, now that we have found your niche and started contributing?
Very simple! Analogue data is way more coherent to nature then digital will ever be!
Yes, noise figures are on the other hand way worst but when you are in a jazz club you
also hear all kind of noises... I dont dislike digital or CD but I am saying its only an approximation of the analogue data and cant be any better in terms of natural sound reproductions!
Very hard to find a scientifical explanation in the very subjective of kinds..
Yes, noise figures are on the other hand way worst but when you are in a jazz club you
also hear all kind of noises...
I dont dislike digital or CD but I am saying its only an approximation of the analogue data and cant be any better in terms of natural sound reproductions! Very hard to find a scientifical explanation in the very subjective of kinds..
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