And possibly one reason the NC500 does not! In fact Hypex want OEM's to tailor there front ends.
I actually believe you didn't hear any difference, which is fine and I respect that.
(I once believed Amplifiers made no difference to sound quality after replacing my Leema Pulse with a Sugden A21SE. My Abrahamsen arrived and changed that notion.)
I do, and I'm guessing that companies like Burson who are on there 5th generation believe and more importantly there customers do.
Believe me, I do not subscribe to HiFi black magic in the slightest.
I actually believe you didn't hear any difference, which is fine and I respect that.
(I once believed Amplifiers made no difference to sound quality after replacing my Leema Pulse with a Sugden A21SE. My Abrahamsen arrived and changed that notion.)
I do, and I'm guessing that companies like Burson who are on there 5th generation believe and more importantly there customers do.
Believe me, I do not subscribe to HiFi black magic in the slightest.
It's kind of ironic to have in the same post a protest of "not believing in hifi black magic in the slightest" and Burson, a company built upon the most silly marketing.
You've got to admit that building one's whole marketing strategy, as Burson does, on the refusal to use IC opamps and then promoting the virtuoso DAC with a volume control based on the pga2310 is really funny. Their use of the pcm1793, with internal opamps for I/V, in the same DAC is also quite absurd.
You've got to admit that building one's whole marketing strategy, as Burson does, on the refusal to use IC opamps and then promoting the virtuoso DAC with a volume control based on the pga2310 is really funny. Their use of the pcm1793, with internal opamps for I/V, in the same DAC is also quite absurd.
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Did you checkout the specs in this link? Why would you suppose audiophiles would spend $135000 on an amp with specs like this, and declare it as one of the finest sounding amps in the world?
ML3 spec
I don't expect they'll be "perfect" by any stretch. China's "If it fits it works" mentality and lack of respect for intellectual property pretty much guarantees that the black market clone stuff is always schlock.
I'm pretty sure that Hypex want OEMs to configure their front ends. It's a win/win for Hypex and the OEM.
Hypex have developed a technically "99.99% perfect" module, but to make money from it they need to sell it to large companies like NAD, Bel Canto, and ideally bigger companies in the future.
In order for Hypex to have a sustainable business, these companies need to be able to differentiate their products, and this means keeping some design credibility. If consumers found out that many companies had started using identical power amp configurations, it wouldn't be long before the prices of anything using said implementation would race to the bottom - and everyone's profit margin disappears.
As Boggit has shown, it's possible to build an NC500 based stereo amp for less than 1K£. The average customer shopping in this price range isn't looking for absolute performance, low THD or anything else. Sometimes they will buy whatever was well reviewed last month, sometimes they might be looking to upgrade within a product range, already loyal to a brand or "house sound" - Naim and Arcam spring to mind. These companies are not going to by NCore unless there is a possibility to customise.
Hypex have developed a technically "99.99% perfect" module, but to make money from it they need to sell it to large companies like NAD, Bel Canto, and ideally bigger companies in the future.
In order for Hypex to have a sustainable business, these companies need to be able to differentiate their products, and this means keeping some design credibility. If consumers found out that many companies had started using identical power amp configurations, it wouldn't be long before the prices of anything using said implementation would race to the bottom - and everyone's profit margin disappears.
As Boggit has shown, it's possible to build an NC500 based stereo amp for less than 1K£. The average customer shopping in this price range isn't looking for absolute performance, low THD or anything else. Sometimes they will buy whatever was well reviewed last month, sometimes they might be looking to upgrade within a product range, already loyal to a brand or "house sound" - Naim and Arcam spring to mind. These companies are not going to by NCore unless there is a possibility to customise.
Not a protest a statement of fact. A bloke in his shed (well to be factually correct it's a 4x4M 58mm thick fully insulated log cabin) is pretty DIY. I guess we expose ourselves to a distilled array of experiences on a daily basis. And hopefully bring insight and a slightly different perspective on things. I may be wrong but would imagine such input may enrich and add value to the thread. I have certainly learned from my experiences here. Then I tend to be pretty open minded.
Didn't we already establish that price and absolute sound quality have very little correlation?
Yes but it seems like the higher the distortion, the higher the price. So this might be something worth considering for people designing things. different people value different sound. This is why Boggit's amp is a good idea. It doesn't matter how the other opamps measure, if they produce a sound the end user perceives as better. For those who think the NE5532, or LM4562 is the holy grail, use that opamp. All there is to it.
If he really wanted to follow that business model, I guess he should add a tube stage.
Indeed. It really doesn't matter if there is an actual difference or not, as long as the user believe there is.
It is my understanding that ds23man, while not speaking for the company, has a pretty good understanding of the thinking at Hypex.
Yeah I suppose. However there's a huge measured difference as well between the discrete opamp designs. So it's not just placebo effect causing the sound difference.
One doesn't imply the other. Even if there are measurable differences that seem huge on paper, the differences may or may not be actually audible. I am not saying they aren't, just pointing out that you can't automatically assume they are.
hypex ncore
Easy to say when you haven't heard them. Me on the other hand have. And there's a distinctive difference with the sound signature of each one. The difference isn't subtle either, enough to clearly tell the difference. Like getting a different component in the playback chain altogether. (Which it is)
And Boggit (the other guy who has heard them too) is on the same page. Although he hasn't tried as many as I did yet.
I am talking he discrete units though. I didn't try any other IC opamps besides the LM4562
Easy to say when you haven't heard them. Me on the other hand have. And there's a distinctive difference with the sound signature of each one. The difference isn't subtle either, enough to clearly tell the difference. Like getting a different component in the playback chain altogether. (Which it is)
And Boggit (the other guy who has heard them too) is on the same page. Although he hasn't tried as many as I did yet.
I am talking he discrete units though. I didn't try any other IC opamps besides the LM4562
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But I guess you have never tested that by doing a double-blind test?
I assume you have absolute faith in your own senses? Long ago, when I started in audio, I used to say "I know what I hear". Then I did some lab work at university involving double blind tests...
Good point. There is much more variation among the discrete opamps than among IC's.
hypex ncore
If you swapped your NC400's with an amp like the Chinese knockoff Sure Electronics class D:
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Amplifiers
Would you be able to tell the difference without a blind test?
If you swapped your NC400's with an amp like the Chinese knockoff Sure Electronics class D:
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Amplifiers
Would you be able to tell the difference without a blind test?
I am pretty sure I would if the music is loud enough to exceed the 2x15W power rating of that amp. But I listen with my ears, not my eyes, so it is of course impossible to tell from just a picture.
I find Audio designers are a particular breed and in my experience share very similar personalities. They are extremely self opinionated and very quick to dismiss other design doctrines. They tend to follow a particular design path. I guess its very difficult and that's where there particular area of expertise lies and they feel comfortable.
My first port of call when commissioning the Nord Input buffer board was the chap in the picture I posted who amongst other things designs valve amps. A quick brief of what I wanted........ and he was off........ yes we could do a super duppa Valve thingy ..... etc etc Frankly I would still be waiting for it, it would be very expensive, probably require its own case! They are perfectionists and love tinkering no matter how good it may be, customers can not benefit from it when its sat on there bench plugged into an oscilloscope.
My first port of call when commissioning the Nord Input buffer board was the chap in the picture I posted who amongst other things designs valve amps. A quick brief of what I wanted........ and he was off........ yes we could do a super duppa Valve thingy ..... etc etc Frankly I would still be waiting for it, it would be very expensive, probably require its own case! They are perfectionists and love tinkering no matter how good it may be, customers can not benefit from it when its sat on there bench plugged into an oscilloscope.
hypex ncore
I updated the link. It was the wrong link at first. They make 400w amps too.
Anyways you aren't really listening to the Ncore amps, when you are listening to the NC500's. You are listening to the input buffer. The Ncore output section only makes it louder. And does so completely devoid of any sonic signature. So it's a big deal changing them out. Because it's the same as changing out amplifiers.
I updated the link. It was the wrong link at first. They make 400w amps too.
Anyways you aren't really listening to the Ncore amps, when you are listening to the NC500's. You are listening to the input buffer. The Ncore output section only makes it louder. And does so completely devoid of any sonic signature. So it's a big deal changing them out. Because it's the same as changing out amplifiers.
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