To the ground conductor I guess? The cable has 3 insulated conductors + shield
Would the shield not need to be cut at this end if it isn't going under the same terminal as the earth conductor?
Honestly, no real reason for the balanced power supply. I was looking for some sort of power filter/conditioner for all my equipment and stumbled upon balanced supplies. After doing a bit of reading I figured a balanced power supply might be better to have over some sort of power conditioner. I got a really good deal on a 2kVA unit so I bought one. Figured if anything, it would at least supply better mains power and I wouldn't have to worry as much about stuff like air conditioner, fridge compressor and lighting interfering with power quality.
Oh, now that you mention that it WAS a NTC. I didn't know there were various types so when you asked about what they recommended I just assumed NTC was an acronym for all thermistors and didn't mention it.
And you are connecting the earth lead to the chassis?
Yes, didn't realize you had a separate earth conductor too. I would not connect either (earth + shield) to the chassis, but with the "balanced' power transformer you probably do want to connect both to the chassis - otherwise you don't get any of the claimed benefits of the "balanced power" (if I sound a bit cynical, it is because I can't really take claims like "Bass resolution is tightened up remarkably and many users have told us that they can actually hear an extra octave of bass that was previously inaudible" when talking about just a mains transformer).
Fair enough, but I am not sure the "power supply" really helps that much - from their description (somewhat vague) it appears it is just a mid-tap transformer.
Ah, OK! A PTC thermistor is used like a fuse, a NTC thermistor is used to limit inrush current when turning on the power. Again, any NTC thermistor intended for that use (as opposed to measuring temperatures) will be OK.
OK, I have been watching this thread for several weeks now trying to get an idea on how the NC400 may stack up to other Class A, Class A/B amps folks have owned in the past and am left with one simple question.
For those who already own one of these NC400 amps, and hypothetically speaking If you were in the market for any Class A, Class A/B amp right now up-wards of $15K do you feel strongly enough about the SQ of the NCore's that you would still choose it instead of buying another offering from (insert brand x amp here) without reservations?
I would be especially interested in hearing from the folks who have previously owned an esoterically priced amp in the past and are now using an NCore because they feel it really is better then what they owned before.
I look forward to hearing anyone's straight up no BS assessment on these things so I can put all of the glowing reviews into some context.
Are these amps only "great" because (insert current owner here) doesn't have the finances to buy one of the other well known offerings from the big name brands (ie..Pass Labs,Classe,Ayre...etc) OR does current owner have the money to buy anything they want but chooses to use the NCore because it really is better then the other guys?
..Thanks for your time
For those who already own one of these NC400 amps, and hypothetically speaking If you were in the market for any Class A, Class A/B amp right now up-wards of $15K do you feel strongly enough about the SQ of the NCore's that you would still choose it instead of buying another offering from (insert brand x amp here) without reservations?
I would be especially interested in hearing from the folks who have previously owned an esoterically priced amp in the past and are now using an NCore because they feel it really is better then what they owned before.
I look forward to hearing anyone's straight up no BS assessment on these things so I can put all of the glowing reviews into some context.
Are these amps only "great" because (insert current owner here) doesn't have the finances to buy one of the other well known offerings from the big name brands (ie..Pass Labs,Classe,Ayre...etc) OR does current owner have the money to buy anything they want but chooses to use the NCore because it really is better then the other guys?
..Thanks for your time
cjf,
Well, I have had a NC400 in my system as well as a NC1200. As good as the NC400 is the NC1200 was better. So I bought the NC1200. At $9,000 I think that means I could buy others you mentioned. As a matter of fact I have owned Theta Digital, Halcro and some others. Before I bought the NC1200 I considered Pass Labs (class A only), Mcintosh, ARC, Classe new top Monos (liked them a lot). I would still keep the NC1200 over the others.
The other amps are great amps, it is just that the Ncore amps give you more.
Also, I would be happy to have NC400.
Well, I have had a NC400 in my system as well as a NC1200. As good as the NC400 is the NC1200 was better. So I bought the NC1200. At $9,000 I think that means I could buy others you mentioned. As a matter of fact I have owned Theta Digital, Halcro and some others. Before I bought the NC1200 I considered Pass Labs (class A only), Mcintosh, ARC, Classe new top Monos (liked them a lot). I would still keep the NC1200 over the others.
The other amps are great amps, it is just that the Ncore amps give you more.
Also, I would be happy to have NC400.
I also went the NC400 to NC1200 route. When I heard the NC400 I was smitten. The NC1200 improved on that and one big change is the bass control. With the NC1200 no subs are needed, I have never heard low end control like that.
I have not heard exotic amps except at dealers and shows but the NC1200 are driving 81dB MBLs like nothing I've heard. Other amps have been CJ 275M, Parasound JC-1 and MBL 8011M.
Too bad the NC1200 is not available to DIY, I wonder what is charged to OEMs for the modules?
I have not heard exotic amps except at dealers and shows but the NC1200 are driving 81dB MBLs like nothing I've heard. Other amps have been CJ 275M, Parasound JC-1 and MBL 8011M.
Too bad the NC1200 is not available to DIY, I wonder what is charged to OEMs for the modules?
I am certainly intrigued by the NC1200. The only thing turning me off to them is the steady increase in price I am seeing by the few dealers right now offering them with no indication that anything new was added to offering from the time the prices were lower not that long ago. Merrill audio seems to have jumped up another $1k for their pair of Veritas since a few weeks ago with nothing different about the product that I can tell.
Now sitting at $10k a pair it's certainly far more attractive to simply go the bi-amp route using two sets of NC400's for less than half the price.
Now sitting at $10k a pair it's certainly far more attractive to simply go the bi-amp route using two sets of NC400's for less than half the price.
cjf,
I believe there was an increase from some of the suppliers and the change in price was a long time coming. But if you go on Audiogon the asking price is still $9,000.
Also even two sets of NC400 will fall short to the NC1200.
Plus who gives you all the upgrades (Stillpoints, Synergistic Fuses, TWL Cables, all the Cardas) and that chases (and yes they make a difference,if you have the system to hear it). So if you used all of the same parts for a NC400 it would be less but not as much and it would still not sound as good. Then again maybe it will be OK for you.
You know, you can try them for 30 days in your system. Well, possibly best not, because if you do you will end up keeping them. Remember, the NC400 have been called giant killers by some, so what does that say about the NC1200.
Just MHO.
I believe there was an increase from some of the suppliers and the change in price was a long time coming. But if you go on Audiogon the asking price is still $9,000.
Also even two sets of NC400 will fall short to the NC1200.
Plus who gives you all the upgrades (Stillpoints, Synergistic Fuses, TWL Cables, all the Cardas) and that chases (and yes they make a difference,if you have the system to hear it). So if you used all of the same parts for a NC400 it would be less but not as much and it would still not sound as good. Then again maybe it will be OK for you.
You know, you can try them for 30 days in your system. Well, possibly best not, because if you do you will end up keeping them. Remember, the NC400 have been called giant killers by some, so what does that say about the NC1200.
Just MHO.
I would love to see the results from a properly controlled, level-matched, double-blind ABX (or ABC/HR or MUSHRA) listening test between the NC400 and NC1200.
I keep seeing all these comments about the audible differences between them, but knowing how good and neutral the nc400 is I find it really hard to believe that it could be improved on really significantly, and the measurements and specs don't point to any major differences either.
I keep seeing all these comments about the audible differences between them, but knowing how good and neutral the nc400 is I find it really hard to believe that it could be improved on really significantly, and the measurements and specs don't point to any major differences either.
Absolutely. I have 8 nc400 modules in my system (4-way active stereo system), a not insignificant investment. I am more than happy with the excellent sound quality, and pretty sure there is no way I could improve the SQ of the system with another amp - right now, the other components are the limiting factor, not the amps.
On the other hand, there is no way I could have what I now have with a class A/B (not to mention class A) setup. 1600W per channel using traditional technology would warm up my living room nicely...
Maybe - but probably not. I will probably get much more significant results with small changes to the room acoustics.
I worked in the same space with John Curl and have about 40+ years in high end audio and music industry, recording, worked with Roy Buchanan, Tower of Power, etc, etc, Record Plant Sausalito in its heyday, Tom Scott (engineer), Ed Freeman.................studied with Dr. Patrick Gleeson, John Viera, Different Fur Studios (Headhunters), personal friend of the late J. Bongiorno, heard in my room Levinson 23, Ampzilla current monos, Naksa 100, custom tubes, VTL, OTL, owned many high end stalwarts, Linn Chakra (opamp version of Quad's current dumping circuit), Curl custom SS pure class amps in wood boxes, custom SS chip amps, pure class A, Classe DR3 monos (extremely small sampling).
My understanding is that one advantage of op-amps (1200 input) vs. discreet (400) is that the former have about 100x tighter tolerance. I own
three 400s.
My understanding is also that Bruno, in his "infinite" wisdom (slight sarcasm), would have preferred to save money, cost, and improve sound with opamp input in the 400 but this here pathetically stupid and stubborn audiophile community convinced Bruno they would more likely spend money on discreet so that's what I am now stuck listening to. Honestly, this makes me sick, especially with my personal experience of opamps vs. discreet (Chakra vs. Quad, almost identical circuits except for opamp vs. discreet......hint: CHAKRA KILLS THE QUAD).
On a separate but related matter: you folks owning those vaunted pro monitors with other than Ncore amps need to sell them immediately or see about replacing the amps with Ncore. After hearing Ncore I could not mentally stand listening to whatever crappy amp is installed in my powered monitors, no matter how good it might appear to sound. You know the 400 will kill whatever's on board now. Some of these speakers climb into the $60k range, with crummy little digital dog meat amps. What a crime.
There's nothing inconsistent in this post. Yes, I like the 400. Yes, our discreet bias screwed us out of an apparently better sounding, cheaper cost amp. Go figure. DIY audiophile goes full circle: in our quest for better, we demanded and got inferior. Honestly, this is the worst thing I've come across in all my audiophile life.
Bruno must laugh about it over beer in Holland. Gold bless you, Bruno...(no sarc)...you gave us what we demanded!
Hello Julf, sounds like a pretty sweet setup you have going on there with 8 NCores. Did you have to do anything in terms of level matching the amps among each other or are they already close enough out of the box to not need to mess with them?
I saw a post a few pages back quoted below about how to go about doing that but I'm not sure I understand what was meant by " simply connect a speaker between the + terminals of both amps". Also, what is being used to adjust said levels, some kind of potentiometer after the XLR Inputs?
Thanks
I saw a post a few pages back quoted below about how to go about doing that but I'm not sure I understand what was meant by " simply connect a speaker between the + terminals of both amps". Also, what is being used to adjust said levels, some kind of potentiometer after the XLR Inputs?
Thanks
I don't agree with the first, while it will be difficult, indeed to find a better amp, i agree with the last.
About the first one, the limitation of the class D is at high frequencies, and a good analog amp, with very high slew rate and high bandwidth up to to Mhz will behave slightly better in an active multi amped system.
Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this, but I have a problem with my nCore/SMPS600 monoblocks. I went away for a week and got back today, and rather stupidly left everything turned on and plugged in. Now both amps are just clicking their relays every few seconds and not making any noise (no LEDs light up either).
Everything else that was plugged in still works (DAC, TV, sub, computer, etc), and I don't think there was a lightning strike. Nothing was being played while I was away. Both amps are affected, and the problem occurs whether or not they are plugged into a source or speakers. They are built into Modushop Galaxy cases with Neutrik PowerCon, XLR, and SpeakOn connections.
Any help gratefully received!
Everything else that was plugged in still works (DAC, TV, sub, computer, etc), and I don't think there was a lightning strike. Nothing was being played while I was away. Both amps are affected, and the problem occurs whether or not they are plugged into a source or speakers. They are built into Modushop Galaxy cases with Neutrik PowerCon, XLR, and SpeakOn connections.
Any help gratefully received!
From my reading (please correct if necessary):
nc400 vs. nc1200: former has more costly discreet input stage, latter has lower cost op-amp input stage. The op-amp stage apparently performs better (sound wise) than the discreet stage.
So far, so good. Everything above seems consistent with well accepted practice and known math: op-amp tolerances are several magnitudes better than discreet. I presume it's well established that the tighter the tolerances the better.
Bruno's first and only personal principal would be audio performance. But in this case....Bruno performed DIY market analysis during DIY design process. DIY community expressed extremely hard bias for discreet input stage and against op-amp input stage, resulting in Bruno selecting discreet input stage for the DIY version nc400, resulting in less performance than if Bruno had either omitted or ignore DIY market analysis. But how could he ignore it? Bruno has mouths to feed at home including his own, so he succumbed to DIY market pressure and gave it what it wanted.
Meanwhile, no such market analysis for OEM nc1200 version, where the only goal was audio performance and power superiority. Result: OEM version nc1200 has twice the power (never a bad thing) and likely the most critical stage of any power amp, its input stage, performs at a higher level vs. the DIY version nc400.
Personally, I have no trouble accepting that the nc1200 may perform better, from a technical and theoretical standpoint, regardless how good the nc400 already sounds vs. preexisting known amps. We (DIY) demanded and got the crummy discreet input stage.
nc400 vs. nc1200: former has more costly discreet input stage, latter has lower cost op-amp input stage. The op-amp stage apparently performs better (sound wise) than the discreet stage.
So far, so good. Everything above seems consistent with well accepted practice and known math: op-amp tolerances are several magnitudes better than discreet. I presume it's well established that the tighter the tolerances the better.
Bruno's first and only personal principal would be audio performance. But in this case....Bruno performed DIY market analysis during DIY design process. DIY community expressed extremely hard bias for discreet input stage and against op-amp input stage, resulting in Bruno selecting discreet input stage for the DIY version nc400, resulting in less performance than if Bruno had either omitted or ignore DIY market analysis. But how could he ignore it? Bruno has mouths to feed at home including his own, so he succumbed to DIY market pressure and gave it what it wanted.
Meanwhile, no such market analysis for OEM nc1200 version, where the only goal was audio performance and power superiority. Result: OEM version nc1200 has twice the power (never a bad thing) and likely the most critical stage of any power amp, its input stage, performs at a higher level vs. the DIY version nc400.
Personally, I have no trouble accepting that the nc1200 may perform better, from a technical and theoretical standpoint, regardless how good the nc400 already sounds vs. preexisting known amps. We (DIY) demanded and got the crummy discreet input stage.
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They were very close to each other, but I am using a digital crossover, so it can adjust channel levels anyway. The only ones it can't do are the 2 bass amps (driving 2 separate bass elements, but driven by one source channel), but those were close enough that it wasn't a problem.
That was in the context of comparing two different amps - as it has been shown that a difference of less than 1 dB makes you prefer the sound of the louder one, even if you can't tell one sounds louder than the other.
Oh, please, not this IC vs Discrete again. Can-you list any reason why a schematic realized in a integrated circuit can be inferior to the same, with discreet components ? Quality of the silicon resistances vs thin film can be on response, but, look at the distortion level of AD797 etc...
On the opposite, the IC brings a lot of advantages: better matching between active devices (and temperature balance) , better precision of passive devices (laser trim at wafer) better HF behavior due to the small size and, so less inductive connections, little price, because the number of transistor in an OPA is not a production matter.
Generalizing this stupid legend, due to the poor speed of the first OPA (741) is boring, at a time you can find OPAs with 1000V/µs of slew rate, 1.5nV/√hz of noise, < -120db distortion devices. Just chose the right one for your needs and care the power supply rails.
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