hi...
Regnad. There has been some speculation as to what might be responsible for the sonic differences between the nC1200 and nC400. Some of this speculation has centered on two things: The nC400 uses three, Wima, .68 polyester caps for the output filter, for a value of ~2uF. Some have seen six caps on the nC1200 of similar size; this could indicate that the caps on the nC1200 are polypropylene models from Wima. Could you check this, as I am very curious about it. And what value are the nC1200 caps?
Additionally, Veritas I believe replaces the stock fuses with Synergistic fuses (do not start laughing). My experience with ICEpower modules, also with fuses on the integrated SMPS, was that the fuses do make a notable difference: have you tried different fuses in your nC400?
Of course, then there is the additional power, whether this makes much difference will depend on how demanding your speakers are...
Regnad. There has been some speculation as to what might be responsible for the sonic differences between the nC1200 and nC400. Some of this speculation has centered on two things: The nC400 uses three, Wima, .68 polyester caps for the output filter, for a value of ~2uF. Some have seen six caps on the nC1200 of similar size; this could indicate that the caps on the nC1200 are polypropylene models from Wima. Could you check this, as I am very curious about it. And what value are the nC1200 caps?
Additionally, Veritas I believe replaces the stock fuses with Synergistic fuses (do not start laughing). My experience with ICEpower modules, also with fuses on the integrated SMPS, was that the fuses do make a notable difference: have you tried different fuses in your nC400?
Of course, then there is the additional power, whether this makes much difference will depend on how demanding your speakers are...
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OK, got it, so you have a complex system and might have to try lots of different things. My experience has been that the Supremes are really good coupling caps, but I have not yet had the opportunity where they are compared to a no cap reference, so I will not suggest that they are entirely transparent (I hope to test this in the next few months though). Since you are running the midrange with no high pass, it will see the low frequency range, and hence I would suspect that phase shift of the upper bass frequencies could colour the sound some due to the 1uF cap value. If i were you I would be tempted to try Supremes in a 2.2uF value and see if that makes a difference before spending mega bucks on teflon or Dueland caps…
Additionally: you are aware that the Jensen transformers will produce quite a bit of distortion if there is much DC present from pin 2 to pin 3, right? I do not know how much DC you have, but if it is "a lot" you might want to consult with Jensen on how much DC your transformers can handle before the start distorting.
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With the nc1200s the manufacturer is left to implement the input stage.
Maybe this has something to do with the difference
Remember, Bruno said he endeavoured to make the nc400s the most neutral amps he could, and not to give them any 'sound'. And that he spent a lot of time audibly comparing the input signal with the output signal
NO
With the nc1200s the manufacturer is left to implement the input stage.
Maybe this has something to do with the difference
No, this is not the case. With the nC1200 the manufacturer has the option to implement their own input stage. The two nC1200 based amplifiers whic I know of right now, the Atsahs, and the Veritas, are both bog stock nC1200 modules with matching SMPS from Hypex, with no manufacturer created input stages.
Interesting that some are reporting the nC1200 sounds better than the nC400. Bruno has mentioned that he does feel that way. The nC1200 has more distortion than the nC400... Hmmm. Maybe measurements are not what matters... Discussion? Or, maybe the power difference is what is responsible for the reported "better" sound, despite the increased distortion of the nC1200?
Or maybe the distortion in the nc1200 is euphonic or harmonically pleasing?
I do not know why the Veritas amps sound so good, my NC400 amps were put together very basically and still sounded the best I had heard.
As far as the snickering about price and subtle differences, perhaps I should put my opinion in context. I do NOT hear the differences (improvements?) from things like connectors, metals, pebbles and so many of the other tweeks that I read about. I remember a rather uncomfortable time when a fellow was demonstrating Shakti Hallographs in my living room, exclaiming "Hear that??? Do you hear that?!!!". I didn't. While curious I also remain VERY skeptical of processes like quantum tunneling using 2,000,000 volts tesla coils for fuses.
That said, the Veritas amps completely redefine my ideas of what my speakers are capable of. I listened to everything from internet radio streaming to SACDs directly from the BD player to the amps. Add the efficiency and other attributes and I am thrilled.
Oh, other amps I've recently owned were Parasound JC-1, CJ LP276M and the NC400s.
So, the sound... All the buzzwords, I guess. Deathly quiet, palpable room loading, unbelievable low end control, amazing detail extraction without stridency, terrific separation of musical lines while still naturally blended, etc.
I also want to say how impressed I am with the physical construction, feels like a solid slab of aluminum, internal layout is clean and gives the modules the best possible environment.
Finally, I do plan to see if I can tell the difference when I install Quantum SR20 fuses next week, currently the amps have stock NC400 fuses in them. I almost hope I don't (I wonder if that sentiment will affect my perception?).
As far as the snickering about price and subtle differences, perhaps I should put my opinion in context. I do NOT hear the differences (improvements?) from things like connectors, metals, pebbles and so many of the other tweeks that I read about. I remember a rather uncomfortable time when a fellow was demonstrating Shakti Hallographs in my living room, exclaiming "Hear that??? Do you hear that?!!!". I didn't. While curious I also remain VERY skeptical of processes like quantum tunneling using 2,000,000 volts tesla coils for fuses.
That said, the Veritas amps completely redefine my ideas of what my speakers are capable of. I listened to everything from internet radio streaming to SACDs directly from the BD player to the amps. Add the efficiency and other attributes and I am thrilled.
Oh, other amps I've recently owned were Parasound JC-1, CJ LP276M and the NC400s.
So, the sound... All the buzzwords, I guess. Deathly quiet, palpable room loading, unbelievable low end control, amazing detail extraction without stridency, terrific separation of musical lines while still naturally blended, etc.
I also want to say how impressed I am with the physical construction, feels like a solid slab of aluminum, internal layout is clean and gives the modules the best possible environment.
Finally, I do plan to see if I can tell the difference when I install Quantum SR20 fuses next week, currently the amps have stock NC400 fuses in them. I almost hope I don't (I wonder if that sentiment will affect my perception?).
Were the Veritas amps clearly better than the nc400's in all those areas? Or were there specific differences you can pin down?
Thanks for being kind, my NC400 layout is very simple and, while the improvements with the new amps are great, I can't help but think construction must be part of it. However, the modules do look quite different and I'd love schematics.
I modified my NC400 boxes so they can sit right behind the speakers with 8" speaker wires and it sounded better to me than with long speaker cables. Maybe I should remove the Veritas modules and install them in my boxes to compare?
I would have been pleased with a pretty case and more power, I was not expecting the sound to improve as much as it has. It sounds odd to say that I have heard new detail in recordings I have had for years but it's true.
Sorry I am not better at conveying the differences but, apart from both amps being very quiet, the other attributes and more, are clearly in another league, IMO. I am also sure that all this has much to do with the particular speaker, too.
I modified my NC400 boxes so they can sit right behind the speakers with 8" speaker wires and it sounded better to me than with long speaker cables. Maybe I should remove the Veritas modules and install them in my boxes to compare?
I would have been pleased with a pretty case and more power, I was not expecting the sound to improve as much as it has. It sounds odd to say that I have heard new detail in recordings I have had for years but it's true.
Sorry I am not better at conveying the differences but, apart from both amps being very quiet, the other attributes and more, are clearly in another league, IMO. I am also sure that all this has much to do with the particular speaker, too.
Maybe the mechanical construction has something to do with the differences in sound.
Has anybody compared nc1200 and nc400 in similar cases, and if so, what are their impressions?
NC400 to NC1200
I hate to get into this mess so I will do one posting and then not get back in. I was pointed to this by someone, so you have to blame that person for my post. I will post his name anonymously.
First, the Disclaimer - I build the Merrill Audio VERITAS Monoblocks - Merrill Audio Stereo equipment for the demanding Audiophile.
A lot of the build and specs for the VERITAS Monoblocks are on the website so I won't get into the common questions of build of the VERITAS monoblocks.
The difference the NC400 and NC1200 is not just the specs. There is a build difference in addition to the power supply - SMPS600 versus SMPS1200.
On the Amps, I cannot speak for other companies, however we did extensive listening tests to get all the right components, wires, casing etc. All of it made a big, audible difference. Each one of the items added more, and more. Sometimes it was more of taking away to make it sound better. And other times, components were just bad sounding, even though it was a very big brand name and supposedly good.
Can the NC400 be as as good as a NC1200 in the same build? Short answer from the testing we did with the NC400 is close but no. Again this goes back to the details that differentiate the $1k amp from the $10k amp to the $100k amps. Why does DartZeel sound so good. If you look inside, you would think the amp was made in a 3rd world country with all point to point wiring, cramped space. However everything in the DartZeel is thought out, measured and calibrated. It does take a tremendous amount of of work to put that together.
As for the exact details of all of this, I will leave that open for discussion otherwise it will get quite dreary at this and other forums. I am sure to get a lot of smart comments on this. Do note that there is a science to this (BSEE, R&D positions, etc to my name) and experience plays a very big role in getting things perfect.
Case in point, My first interview with Motorola after graduating, the interviewing manager insisted my design at the interview was incorrect. I told him to build it can then call me back. We had some words. True enough he and everybody else called back - I did not go to work for him. Moral of the story, beside tooting my own horn, is that there is a really science behind this and not just the specs. If you look at super computers, they even calculated the distance between each connection for speed of execution. It is build in an octogon (last one I saw), to get the speed faster. Perhaps I have gone too far here however the point is every piece in an amp does add or subtract from the sound, even the metal used. Sometimes the eliminating the components that subtract is as important as adding the components that add to the purity of the sound - we had to go through that.
I hate to get into this mess so I will do one posting and then not get back in. I was pointed to this by someone, so you have to blame that person for my post. I will post his name anonymously.
First, the Disclaimer - I build the Merrill Audio VERITAS Monoblocks - Merrill Audio Stereo equipment for the demanding Audiophile.
A lot of the build and specs for the VERITAS Monoblocks are on the website so I won't get into the common questions of build of the VERITAS monoblocks.
The difference the NC400 and NC1200 is not just the specs. There is a build difference in addition to the power supply - SMPS600 versus SMPS1200.
On the Amps, I cannot speak for other companies, however we did extensive listening tests to get all the right components, wires, casing etc. All of it made a big, audible difference. Each one of the items added more, and more. Sometimes it was more of taking away to make it sound better. And other times, components were just bad sounding, even though it was a very big brand name and supposedly good.
Can the NC400 be as as good as a NC1200 in the same build? Short answer from the testing we did with the NC400 is close but no. Again this goes back to the details that differentiate the $1k amp from the $10k amp to the $100k amps. Why does DartZeel sound so good. If you look inside, you would think the amp was made in a 3rd world country with all point to point wiring, cramped space. However everything in the DartZeel is thought out, measured and calibrated. It does take a tremendous amount of of work to put that together.
As for the exact details of all of this, I will leave that open for discussion otherwise it will get quite dreary at this and other forums. I am sure to get a lot of smart comments on this. Do note that there is a science to this (BSEE, R&D positions, etc to my name) and experience plays a very big role in getting things perfect.
Case in point, My first interview with Motorola after graduating, the interviewing manager insisted my design at the interview was incorrect. I told him to build it can then call me back. We had some words. True enough he and everybody else called back - I did not go to work for him. Moral of the story, beside tooting my own horn, is that there is a really science behind this and not just the specs. If you look at super computers, they even calculated the distance between each connection for speed of execution. It is build in an octogon (last one I saw), to get the speed faster. Perhaps I have gone too far here however the point is every piece in an amp does add or subtract from the sound, even the metal used. Sometimes the eliminating the components that subtract is as important as adding the components that add to the purity of the sound - we had to go through that.
So you are saying that the difference in the implementation (type of speaker posts, XLR's, etc.) is what you are attributing the difference in sound quality between the 400 and 1200?
Seeing as how the distortion figures are so low I suppose it will be extremely revealing of the slightest differences and thus perhaps that is the only plausible explanation. Especially in light of this comment from Hypex:
On NC400 vs. NC1200: "The NC400 has somewhat lower distortion & output impedance than the NC1200 and those deluxe discrete input buffers. Otherwise the NC1200 has about 40% more voltage and current reserves. That's pretty much it."
Which leaves one with the impression that identical implementations should actually favor the nc400.
We need to keep in mind that Bruno is not one to "voice" his designs-he is spec driven and thus I doubt he used anything but best practices when designing these two amps to be as neutral as possible.
Of course one needs to keep in mind that several of the reviews of the nc1200 vs nc400 were done by compensated beta testers of a commercial nc1200 product so I tend to take those with a grain of salt....Still, inquiring minds would like to know...
Thanks for your input.
Seeing as how the distortion figures are so low I suppose it will be extremely revealing of the slightest differences and thus perhaps that is the only plausible explanation. Especially in light of this comment from Hypex:
On NC400 vs. NC1200: "The NC400 has somewhat lower distortion & output impedance than the NC1200 and those deluxe discrete input buffers. Otherwise the NC1200 has about 40% more voltage and current reserves. That's pretty much it."
Which leaves one with the impression that identical implementations should actually favor the nc400.
We need to keep in mind that Bruno is not one to "voice" his designs-he is spec driven and thus I doubt he used anything but best practices when designing these two amps to be as neutral as possible.
Of course one needs to keep in mind that several of the reviews of the nc1200 vs nc400 were done by compensated beta testers of a commercial nc1200 product so I tend to take those with a grain of salt....Still, inquiring minds would like to know...
Thanks for your input.
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