HOW about JBL 4-way?
http://www.goldsound.net/kit14.htm
JBL 4-way, 18"kit from Gold Sound.
I propose that this is the solution to getting the live sound in your home.
Of course you don't have to have JBL but you do have to have the following in abundance:
EFFICIENCY, DISPERSION, WOOFER CONE AREA, LOW DISTORTION, QUICK TRANSIENT RESPONSE, POWER.
I suppose that if you want to use any drivers of lower efficiency then you would need more of them, such as MTM at least, or a vertical array of many more likely.
When I began this link I was not thinking of an all-out PRO driver system but after reading the threads from the Australian fellow who was trying to reproduce the symphony in his home it became clear to me.
Building a system that can cause you to go deaf without even trying hard and without distortion, will also give you the ability, at reduced levels, to reproduce everything with an effortless and fluid grace and naturalness that is not achievable any other way.
PLEASE DISAGREE with me if you can, and add more comments to further my education!
PS. - to those that keep saying this is an impossible task, buy the JBL kit above and put it in your living room and then write back to me! But seriously, I used to have an old JBL system with 12" woofer and Bullet tweeter and it produced a HUGE sound with no distortion. I would worry a little bit about harming your ears with that bullet tweeter though, because it would cause pain at high levels without even sounding bad!
http://www.goldsound.net/kit14.htm
JBL 4-way, 18"kit from Gold Sound.
I propose that this is the solution to getting the live sound in your home.
Of course you don't have to have JBL but you do have to have the following in abundance:
EFFICIENCY, DISPERSION, WOOFER CONE AREA, LOW DISTORTION, QUICK TRANSIENT RESPONSE, POWER.
I suppose that if you want to use any drivers of lower efficiency then you would need more of them, such as MTM at least, or a vertical array of many more likely.
When I began this link I was not thinking of an all-out PRO driver system but after reading the threads from the Australian fellow who was trying to reproduce the symphony in his home it became clear to me.
Building a system that can cause you to go deaf without even trying hard and without distortion, will also give you the ability, at reduced levels, to reproduce everything with an effortless and fluid grace and naturalness that is not achievable any other way.
PLEASE DISAGREE with me if you can, and add more comments to further my education!
PS. - to those that keep saying this is an impossible task, buy the JBL kit above and put it in your living room and then write back to me! But seriously, I used to have an old JBL system with 12" woofer and Bullet tweeter and it produced a HUGE sound with no distortion. I would worry a little bit about harming your ears with that bullet tweeter though, because it would cause pain at high levels without even sounding bad!
being there
Hi RJP366
go to a unamplyfied concert,and this is what you will hear.No distortion,no phasing issues,no lobing no time delay,no xover distortion,etc etc and ofcourse no stereo sound since we have not made any instruments that can do that.
All we can do is create a illusion and that includes your JBL speaker as it will have all the above mentioned problems.
Cheers
Maduras
Hi RJP366
go to a unamplyfied concert,and this is what you will hear.No distortion,no phasing issues,no lobing no time delay,no xover distortion,etc etc and ofcourse no stereo sound since we have not made any instruments that can do that.
All we can do is create a illusion and that includes your JBL speaker as it will have all the above mentioned problems.
Cheers
Maduras
OK. We cannot reproduce exactly the live event. Big deal.
What I state is that a BIG fault of conventional system is dynamic contrasts . Horn systems, as acoustic amplifiers, are good at reproducing that aspect of live music. When you go back to bass reflex, for example, you feel cheated...
delta SPL/delta t
What I state is that a BIG fault of conventional system is dynamic contrasts . Horn systems, as acoustic amplifiers, are good at reproducing that aspect of live music. When you go back to bass reflex, for example, you feel cheated...
delta SPL/delta t
gainphile said:Physics do not allow wavefront particle reproduction of live concert with two speakers in a livingroom. It is simply impossible, even if you draw dots on the cone, ports, or corner of the room
The best we can hope for is creating illusion of the actual event, and the design topology of the loudspeakers is the main contributor.
G'day gainphile,
I completely agree with you that you can't reproduce a live concert with two speakers in a livingroom.
But if we are talking about "creating an illusion of the actual event", then EnABL (drivers or otherwise) does offer some significant sonic benefits.
Cheers,
Alex
In my experience you can have a live and dynamic sound (using horns) or a stereo correct soound (using conventional drivers, planers, etc.) but you generally can't have both (of good quality).
Live amplified sound isn't location specific. It fills the space that it is in, and that's part of the problem (as stated earlied), Your smallish listening room can't reproduce the hall size, therefore you need some kind of time delay or reverb or ambiphonic manipulation to achieve something like this. But that also prohibits you from moving around the room itself, makinig you still sit in a sweet spot for the most part.
Stereo sound, as produced in a studio, requires precise balance between the speakers and a location specific seating as well. However, due to compression (at the extreme these days) the dynamic life is sucked out completely.
Now unamplified music is a whole other ball of string, and we have a long way to go to come close to reproducing that in a room. Although the tonal balance of recorded instruments is opretty damn good these days, the microdynamics and other queues that make it real just aren't there yet.
Bob
Live amplified sound isn't location specific. It fills the space that it is in, and that's part of the problem (as stated earlied), Your smallish listening room can't reproduce the hall size, therefore you need some kind of time delay or reverb or ambiphonic manipulation to achieve something like this. But that also prohibits you from moving around the room itself, makinig you still sit in a sweet spot for the most part.
Stereo sound, as produced in a studio, requires precise balance between the speakers and a location specific seating as well. However, due to compression (at the extreme these days) the dynamic life is sucked out completely.
Now unamplified music is a whole other ball of string, and we have a long way to go to come close to reproducing that in a room. Although the tonal balance of recorded instruments is opretty damn good these days, the microdynamics and other queues that make it real just aren't there yet.
Bob
I have a pretty decent 5.1 system set up in my house, and I have assembled it myself, choosing speakers that I feel sound good together and work well for the purpose. What I have also done is include 5 super tweeters, one for each mid-high channel, and point them at the walls in such a way that the reflected sounds adds great ambience, and the very slight delay helps to recreate that live sound.
I have watched live concert DVDs and the sound has been just wonderful, full deep and lively.
I have watched live concert DVDs and the sound has been just wonderful, full deep and lively.
But no matter how good you get it sounding, it will never be the same. It is also of benefit to have one or two very capable subs, as live music, especially big outdoor venues have a much deeper richer bass, as it permeates everywhere, while the directionality comes from the mids and treble, thats why delay stacks often don't have subs or only have minimal subs, as the bass carries from the front of stage, while the upper content dies out quicker, as it doesnt reflect off structures and landforms in the same way bass does, due to the shorter wavelength.
Also, in big concerts, you can heard the effect of wind on the sound, as there is often substantial distance between yourself and the speakers, and you can hear the changes in sound when the wind changes speed or direction. Its effects like these that help contribute to the live sound, and cannot be replicated.
Something else worth mentioning is that live recordings in outdoor venues will sound very different to indoor performances. I do work as a sound engineer and have mixed live music in outdoor venues, and it is very different to mixing the same band indoors as you dont have to battle with noise coming off the stage etc.
Also, in big concerts, you can heard the effect of wind on the sound, as there is often substantial distance between yourself and the speakers, and you can hear the changes in sound when the wind changes speed or direction. Its effects like these that help contribute to the live sound, and cannot be replicated.
Something else worth mentioning is that live recordings in outdoor venues will sound very different to indoor performances. I do work as a sound engineer and have mixed live music in outdoor venues, and it is very different to mixing the same band indoors as you dont have to battle with noise coming off the stage etc.
I have heard several systems that sound as good or better then they are here, all of them mine. From observing the systems being built here it appears most if not all of you are compromising in bandwith, dynamic compression, power response, power/spl capability and IM distortion. I also don't see anyone delaying the rear subs to enlarge the sound of the room.
Try Jeff Beck Performing This Week: Live at Ronnie Scott's for a reference.
Try Jeff Beck Performing This Week: Live at Ronnie Scott's for a reference.
maduras said:
That was not what I claimed.
I meant to express the conversation here tends toward conventional "high end" ideology or fads being sold here. In my experience that is dead end if you want true live sound (not the goal of most I see). A sound in which has little to no compromises compared to live.
Some things that work:
Either build the room specific to your goals or if you can't build the system specific to the room.
A front dead/damped room and a live/dispersive back room seems to sound best with most recordings.
Invest in a good measuring system.
Try not to compromise on the bass and deep bass. You have to move the air in room and all rooms have standing waves. Most listening rooms are small compared to a music hall, and they sound like it. Take every measure in building a system that produces the sound of the bass you get live. This in my experience requires several high quality drivers and several amplifiers including control of crossover frequencies, slopes, phase and delay. I use sixteen 15 inch or larger drivers (some horn loaded some cardioid) for the bass and it's frankly not an over kill.
The lower midrange is the core of the sound. Virtually all systems have problems there and most are related to floor and side wall reflections. These holes in the response kill the warmth and believability of the system. Care must be taken in this area. The configuration of the low midrange in the system must allow for no dips in the low midrange.
Pro drivers are more sensitive and have less compression then your typical Vifa, Audax, Morel, ect. drivers. They can also be just as linear when selected and used properly. If you use compression drivers then you should build a midrange and bass system that has the same or higher sensitivity and SPL capability of the compression driver. Keeping the overall sensitivity from the bottom octave up to 106db or more with a watt does wonders for dynamics and live believability.
Multi-amping is the way to go. If a driver has problems that need corrected or finished then do that with passive components. Most opamps sound OK if used properly and some are transparent. The use of a passive line level crossover is an excellent choice if a low order slope is desired like in a horn system that is basically a bandpass system anyway.
Rear delayed ambiance channels derived from the stereo recording can do wonders in the feel of live sound. Two channel has many problems, a derived center can also help but it cannot be compromised compared to the main channels. I find SRS Circle Surround to be the best system for music. Rear surround speakers sound best when their entire range is omni-directional.
There is lot's more of course.
Either build the room specific to your goals or if you can't build the system specific to the room.
A front dead/damped room and a live/dispersive back room seems to sound best with most recordings.
Invest in a good measuring system.
Try not to compromise on the bass and deep bass. You have to move the air in room and all rooms have standing waves. Most listening rooms are small compared to a music hall, and they sound like it. Take every measure in building a system that produces the sound of the bass you get live. This in my experience requires several high quality drivers and several amplifiers including control of crossover frequencies, slopes, phase and delay. I use sixteen 15 inch or larger drivers (some horn loaded some cardioid) for the bass and it's frankly not an over kill.
The lower midrange is the core of the sound. Virtually all systems have problems there and most are related to floor and side wall reflections. These holes in the response kill the warmth and believability of the system. Care must be taken in this area. The configuration of the low midrange in the system must allow for no dips in the low midrange.
Pro drivers are more sensitive and have less compression then your typical Vifa, Audax, Morel, ect. drivers. They can also be just as linear when selected and used properly. If you use compression drivers then you should build a midrange and bass system that has the same or higher sensitivity and SPL capability of the compression driver. Keeping the overall sensitivity from the bottom octave up to 106db or more with a watt does wonders for dynamics and live believability.
Multi-amping is the way to go. If a driver has problems that need corrected or finished then do that with passive components. Most opamps sound OK if used properly and some are transparent. The use of a passive line level crossover is an excellent choice if a low order slope is desired like in a horn system that is basically a bandpass system anyway.
Rear delayed ambiance channels derived from the stereo recording can do wonders in the feel of live sound. Two channel has many problems, a derived center can also help but it cannot be compromised compared to the main channels. I find SRS Circle Surround to be the best system for music. Rear surround speakers sound best when their entire range is omni-directional.
There is lot's more of course.
chris661 said:
Well I have mixed foh in stereo before and while this seemed to be a misconception about stereo (the guitarist asked me how will they hear me on the left side of the room if my guitar is coming out of the right speaker?) I think it's more that people mix in mono because it's easy and the room/venue's acoustics sort of force you to.
People mistake dual mono for stereo and don't understand that rarely are you ever hard panned in a live mix. Your instruments will be coming out of both speakers at all times in most stereo live mixes. Besides that there is usually stage volume which boosts sounds coming from the stage area. The stage volume can get so loud in a small venue that you really don't need to use the PA/mixing board for anything other than the vocals. In those situations or ones that are close to it I guess it's just better to embrace the mono because you are already fighting a strong center channel that will throw off the imaging.
Also consider that in a real live event nothing is truly in "mono". Mono is abstract and as far as I can tell truly only exists on the recoded medium. As soon as you send the sound out of speakers it will bounce off of boundaries different on the right side than it will on the left side giving you a stereo reverb. This is actually a mixing style that has been used in certain genres. For instance people will say that Hip Hop is mixed in mono. I find this to be rarely true. Sure all the instruments are panned dead center but if you run the mix through a surround sound decoder it becomes very clear that they are using stereo reverbs and stereo echos.
As far as a bare minimum of what is needed in the playback chain. I used to frankly not like many live recordings and I really didn't get why some engineers I respected said they loved live recordings. I remember before I got into surround sound it would baffle me that I heard some trusted ears say that they only really liked live recordings in surround sound and not albums - this was the opposite of why I wanted to use it. Anyway it wasn't until I used 4 speakers set up with equidistant spacing that I "got it". The added coverage and the localized ambiance was enough to put it over the edge and make an "eh" recording sound real to my ears. And this is with a set of speakers that has good offaxis response and 90 degree dispersion.
Stereo just doesn't seem like enough to me. Maybe you can push it to the point of inaccuracy and gain some coverage or some of that ambiance stuff but you are really pushing the illusion and will have other negative side effects as a result imo.
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