Well overkill has been a key element of this thread,
personally a few basic points, is the room 50ft in length? The bass wave is, why create something that can only be heard in the street?, I find car stereos a bit stupid, why so much sub bass if you cannot actually hear it / form the sound wave, if you want shake, put in a activater (motor that shakes seats).
These really are complicated projects, Im sure a big industrial 2 way would already be too much quality sound for him and far more impressive to look at than anything his friends would have, also making a possible P.A career out of them in the future.
Anyway Punk best of luck with the plenty of choices at your fingertips.
personally a few basic points, is the room 50ft in length? The bass wave is, why create something that can only be heard in the street?, I find car stereos a bit stupid, why so much sub bass if you cannot actually hear it / form the sound wave, if you want shake, put in a activater (motor that shakes seats).
These really are complicated projects, Im sure a big industrial 2 way would already be too much quality sound for him and far more impressive to look at than anything his friends would have, also making a possible P.A career out of them in the future.
Anyway Punk best of luck with the plenty of choices at your fingertips.
AndrewT said:
Hi,
It sounds about right. The best demonstration of this is a Walkman,
with in/over the ear heaphones - not sealed. Set the music volume
level to be able to have a perfectly reasonable conversation and
be able to hear what is going on around you.
Go to work walk around whatever - the apparent level of the music
will plummet with high levels of enviromental noise, and increase if
you can find somewhere quiet.
This is the ear/brains automatic gain control working.
Its very progressive at sustained high levels, your best clue
as to the actuall volume is not what you can hear but what
you can't, i.e. not being able to hear someone speaking
next to you, they have to shout in your ear.
Also note that the unit of sound is a Bel ~ twice as loud,
but 10 times more power and 10 times more likely to damage
your hearing, crank it up to 4 times as loud power = x 100.
As stated the ear/brain gain control allows a huge (120dB)
dynamic range of hearing but does nothing to prevent the
ear being damaged by sustained high levels.
/sreten.Hi,
What you said originally is exactly the opposite.
Each time one of those little sensors is stimulated part of the fatigue life of the sensor is used up. High levels fatigue them quickly and lower levels fatigue them slowly. Below a certain limit (but I guess a different limit for different listeners) the fatigue life becomes very long, but not quite infinite.
This paraphrased in very much layman's language, so please excuse the slightly inaccurate analogies I am using. I am no biological/sound researcher.
that makes more sense and is supported by reams of literature.
What you said originally is exactly the opposite.
Turning down the sensitivity and masking of the lower levels of sound provides no protection from hearing damage.
Each time one of those little sensors is stimulated part of the fatigue life of the sensor is used up. High levels fatigue them quickly and lower levels fatigue them slowly. Below a certain limit (but I guess a different limit for different listeners) the fatigue life becomes very long, but not quite infinite.
This paraphrased in very much layman's language, so please excuse the slightly inaccurate analogies I am using. I am no biological/sound researcher.
If you say so, but I think Sreten excactly said that this gain control works only up to a certain level, from there on ears are unprotected, more or less our ears are on their own, and the brain has given up on protecting our ears, and if going on too long means permanent loss of hearing
Or they get very sensitive to noice and other abnormalities, which can actually be very usefull in hifi...dont believe that either, well I cant blame you...I find it very odd too, cause I dont see how lowering ears sensitivity does anything to protecting hearing at all, I really dont understand that part
What I believe is that the brain tries to do something that it really cant, and the opposite happens when we turn it up further
Or they get very sensitive to noice and other abnormalities, which can actually be very usefull in hifi...dont believe that either, well I cant blame you...I find it very odd too, cause I dont see how lowering ears sensitivity does anything to protecting hearing at all, I really dont understand that part
What I believe is that the brain tries to do something that it really cant, and the opposite happens when we turn it up further
Cameron
From what I've read, the bass wave requiring a room big enough to fit is a myth. Otherwise no audio system would work in a normal room at the lowest frequencies that classical music has-yet they do!
This system wil be going down to 30 hz at the lowest, probably less. None of the music punkr will listen to has sound this low I believe.
From what I've read, the bass wave requiring a room big enough to fit is a myth. Otherwise no audio system would work in a normal room at the lowest frequencies that classical music has-yet they do!
This system wil be going down to 30 hz at the lowest, probably less. None of the music punkr will listen to has sound this low I believe.
yes
AndrewT said:
Hi,
I wasn't me that said that originally, I completely agree with you.
The AGC of the ear/brain is simply to allow a very large dynamic
range perception, it has nothing to do with "protection" other
than if turned off and the "painfully" loud threshold kept the
same we would be effectively very deaf.
/sreten.
I think we need to give Punkr the internal volumes of the boxes, and the vent lengths and diameters, and let him design the speaker boxes.
He can do sketches and learn how to post them. He really should get a friend to help him download WinISD pro.
Punkr:
You want to say you made these speakers.
First You need to get help if required and download win ISD pro
You will need to decide the height and depth and width of your boxes based on the information we help you find.
If we help you determine the internal volume of the boxes you can certainly figure out their size and proportions..
We will help you, but so far you haven't done much.
I was very resistant to trying to figure out WinISD, which calculates the box size and vent length for the desired response. I finally took the plunge and have learned a LOT and the feeling of satisfaction is incredible. I tuned my speaker boxes (only a single 15" per side and can play LOUD!) myself and the results are just what I wanted. Well, I decided to try a variation in port length recently that I tested on win ISD so the program comes in handy again.
Get that program downloaded and installed so we can walk you through the process.
He can do sketches and learn how to post them. He really should get a friend to help him download WinISD pro.
Punkr:
You want to say you made these speakers.
First You need to get help if required and download win ISD pro
You will need to decide the height and depth and width of your boxes based on the information we help you find.
If we help you determine the internal volume of the boxes you can certainly figure out their size and proportions..
We will help you, but so far you haven't done much.
I was very resistant to trying to figure out WinISD, which calculates the box size and vent length for the desired response. I finally took the plunge and have learned a LOT and the feeling of satisfaction is incredible. I tuned my speaker boxes (only a single 15" per side and can play LOUD!) myself and the results are just what I wanted. Well, I decided to try a variation in port length recently that I tested on win ISD so the program comes in handy again.
Get that program downloaded and installed so we can walk you through the process.
These ports will add more big circles to the front of the cabinets:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-352
You'll need at least 3 I'd say, maybe 4 per 18" Thats another $200 to do 4 18" so maybe its 4" PVC pipe for you at first! That's cheaper but not as cool.
BUT we can design slots instead, which are made as part of the cabinet and basically free, but a bit more work. Probably you should do the slots...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-352
You'll need at least 3 I'd say, maybe 4 per 18" Thats another $200 to do 4 18" so maybe its 4" PVC pipe for you at first! That's cheaper but not as cool.
BUT we can design slots instead, which are made as part of the cabinet and basically free, but a bit more work. Probably you should do the slots...
To continue Off Topic. Ears.
The ear DOES protect itself. It does so by tightening the middle ear so that not as much energy is transmitted to the inner ear. That is one of the reasons that it's hard to hear soft sounds after long exposure to loud sounds. Like coming out of a concert. The middle ear takes some time to relax.
But just as it takes time to relax, it also takes time to tighten up. So a sudden loud sound can really hurt the ear. Eskimo hunters have this problem and are going deaf because of it. They wait by a seal hole in near total silence, then BANG! they shoot the seal. Very loud, very quick noise right by the ear when it's good and relaxed. Killer combination.
Hearing damage WILL result with exposure to loud sounds, sudden or sustained. But the ear does compress, mechanically.
The ear DOES protect itself. It does so by tightening the middle ear so that not as much energy is transmitted to the inner ear. That is one of the reasons that it's hard to hear soft sounds after long exposure to loud sounds. Like coming out of a concert. The middle ear takes some time to relax.
But just as it takes time to relax, it also takes time to tighten up. So a sudden loud sound can really hurt the ear. Eskimo hunters have this problem and are going deaf because of it. They wait by a seal hole in near total silence, then BANG! they shoot the seal. Very loud, very quick noise right by the ear when it's good and relaxed. Killer combination.
Hearing damage WILL result with exposure to loud sounds, sudden or sustained. But the ear does compress, mechanically.
2 more things on topic.
Variac: Do you have more info on that big system you showed back in post #389? It looks like 2 x 24" 1x12" then maybe a 10" circular horn/waveguide and the little vertical super tweeter. I'd like to know more about the system.
As for the midrange on our 1812 project.
Maybe we could go with 8" drivers. The Hammer 8. But use two, side by side with the horn in the middle. Same price as the Beta 12, but Tinitus gets his Hi-Fi mid range, Punkrokr gets 2 drivers instead of one. Might look and sound even better than a single 12. I don't think it could cross much below 300Hz, but that's OK. That would make the mid section a classic, well loved MTM config. D'Appolito, anyone?
Variac: Do you have more info on that big system you showed back in post #389? It looks like 2 x 24" 1x12" then maybe a 10" circular horn/waveguide and the little vertical super tweeter. I'd like to know more about the system.
As for the midrange on our 1812 project.
Maybe we could go with 8" drivers. The Hammer 8. But use two, side by side with the horn in the middle. Same price as the Beta 12, but Tinitus gets his Hi-Fi mid range, Punkrokr gets 2 drivers instead of one. Might look and sound even better than a single 12. I don't think it could cross much below 300Hz, but that's OK. That would make the mid section a classic, well loved MTM config. D'Appolito, anyone?
Mashaefer was origanlly the one who brung the Dayton Pro 18"'s into the picture and for an enclosure I like what he's got. It seems like it'll be able to pump out the bass real easily.
And would these ports work?
Or couldn't I just buy some 4x15 diy tubes and then cut them to length and add some outside flares and maybe inside flares .
Cause $200 seems sort of ridiculous to spend on ports to me. I can get a 30gb Ipod for that much.
Ok, let's all stay calm here...
BUT let's discuss this..
Here is my proposal:
-Design it using two of Punkr's 18"
because it is clear that is what he wants.One on the top and one on the bottom. Even if we go D'Apollito for the other drivers it would be OK to just have one 18" at first on the bottom if the budget requires this.
-Use the Hammer 8's.
Everyone agrees they are the same as the Eminence Beta 8's. I won't go with the Alpha 8's because we know from reputation that the Beta's are great AND we have the Blue crossover for backup if we decide that not being able to hear the thing means we should go with an established idea AND the Hammers are super cheap and handle more power. Two 8" drivers are about the same as one 12" in area, so it could have the punch and power handling of the 12 and the finesse of the 8. Best of both worlds. Two 8" drivers should look as cool as one 12 IMHO.
-Use the Blue Waveguide. Use either tweeter with the BLUE crossover if he doesn't go all active right away. We can put in an L-pad since it will need to be set to keep up with the the double 8"s and 18's
Pano, if we put the 8" on either side of the tweeter won't we get a super narrow dispersion? Don't you mean one above the tweeter and one below? Like in the photos? Like D'Apollito ? Like real cool looking?
So... we end up with the designed BLUE crossovers as backup, BUT a Blue that's TWICE AS GOOD and TWICE AS MONSTEROUS!
tinitus gets many of his hundreds of ideas:
8" smoother drivers
D'apollito that he was proposing but with 8" instead of 12"
Enough driver area for the midbass punch he is worried about.
A configuration that will be much more hifi
A waveguide, not the one he wants, but the HIFi waveguide- that should be enough!
Pano gets drivers he approves of with a configuration that he knows will do the job for Punkr. The 18" drivers, the 8" he approves of, the horns he approves of the waveguide he approves of. A style and design he lusts for!
I get all the above with the the gut feeling that this is going to work better. I was always in agreement that an 8" would mate better with a 15 than an 18, but the two 8" should solve that.
Punkr gets his 7' tall MONSTER speakers, but in a format that will sound great in his house, with plenty of drivers. He gets the bass drivers he wants with 8" mids that are proven to work well, He gets the peace of mind knowing that it will sound good eventhough we aren't there to tweak it for him. Punkr, if you aren't convinced just
go look at those photos!!
BUT let's discuss this..
Here is my proposal:
-Design it using two of Punkr's 18"
because it is clear that is what he wants.One on the top and one on the bottom. Even if we go D'Apollito for the other drivers it would be OK to just have one 18" at first on the bottom if the budget requires this.
-Use the Hammer 8's.
Everyone agrees they are the same as the Eminence Beta 8's. I won't go with the Alpha 8's because we know from reputation that the Beta's are great AND we have the Blue crossover for backup if we decide that not being able to hear the thing means we should go with an established idea AND the Hammers are super cheap and handle more power. Two 8" drivers are about the same as one 12" in area, so it could have the punch and power handling of the 12 and the finesse of the 8. Best of both worlds. Two 8" drivers should look as cool as one 12 IMHO.
-Use the Blue Waveguide. Use either tweeter with the BLUE crossover if he doesn't go all active right away. We can put in an L-pad since it will need to be set to keep up with the the double 8"s and 18's
Pano, if we put the 8" on either side of the tweeter won't we get a super narrow dispersion? Don't you mean one above the tweeter and one below? Like in the photos? Like D'Apollito ? Like real cool looking?
So... we end up with the designed BLUE crossovers as backup, BUT a Blue that's TWICE AS GOOD and TWICE AS MONSTEROUS!
tinitus gets many of his hundreds of ideas:
8" smoother drivers
D'apollito that he was proposing but with 8" instead of 12"
Enough driver area for the midbass punch he is worried about.
A configuration that will be much more hifi
A waveguide, not the one he wants, but the HIFi waveguide- that should be enough!
Pano gets drivers he approves of with a configuration that he knows will do the job for Punkr. The 18" drivers, the 8" he approves of, the horns he approves of the waveguide he approves of. A style and design he lusts for!
I get all the above with the the gut feeling that this is going to work better. I was always in agreement that an 8" would mate better with a 15 than an 18, but the two 8" should solve that.
Punkr gets his 7' tall MONSTER speakers, but in a format that will sound great in his house, with plenty of drivers. He gets the bass drivers he wants with 8" mids that are proven to work well, He gets the peace of mind knowing that it will sound good eventhough we aren't there to tweak it for him. Punkr, if you aren't convinced just
go look at those photos!!
Hi,
Well, if I cant get that ALPHA 6A....BETA 8A (Hammer) would be next
I really would like to see those 18" in closed box too (150 liter ?)
Why wont you ever listen....well, just the same
BTW....to be honest, I think it was actually me who suggested Dayton 18" first I saw your Pioneer project....so I have done my share....
Well, if I cant get that ALPHA 6A....BETA 8A (Hammer) would be next
I really would like to see those 18" in closed box too (150 liter ?)
Why wont you ever listen....well, just the same
BTW....to be honest, I think it was actually me who suggested Dayton 18" first I saw your Pioneer project....so I have done my share....
Punk,
Good analysis and notes. 2 ports might be enough per driver, or we make the slot which would work great. The trouble is that the more ports you have, the longer each one needs to be, so with 2 or 3 they aren't long enough. BUT we can check later. The DIY tubes would work fine.
The BIG question : Can we go with the scheme in the above post huh? can we huh? pleeese? I really feel it is the best looking idea, the most imposing and the most likely to work in your house. Pano seems to be ready to go with it, so we ahvea consensus of sorts...
Good analysis and notes. 2 ports might be enough per driver, or we make the slot which would work great. The trouble is that the more ports you have, the longer each one needs to be, so with 2 or 3 they aren't long enough. BUT we can check later. The DIY tubes would work fine.
The BIG question : Can we go with the scheme in the above post huh? can we huh? pleeese? I really feel it is the best looking idea, the most imposing and the most likely to work in your house. Pano seems to be ready to go with it, so we ahvea consensus of sorts...
My two cents-
Do yourself a favor, and break up the speaker to be module. If you put the two 8's in a cabinet with the tweeter, you're already looking at 50+ pounds. One 18" in a large cabinet could be closer to 75+ pounds. Realistically, you could want to move these some day. It's a serious enough rig to go put on a concert in a small gymnasium or a bar. It's possible to bring to an apartment in your second year of college (but probably not a dorm), and those apartments are often on the second floor with no elevator. Also, depending on your vehicle it might not even be possible to transport these things as monoliths.
At a bare minimum, you should break this up into sub 100 pound chunks. If you want it to be even more useful, consider adding handles, corner protectors, and pro-type speaker connectors. If you go through with something this badical, you won't regret the few extra touches that turn this from a monster that sits in your livingroom to a possible source of income.
Do yourself a favor, and break up the speaker to be module. If you put the two 8's in a cabinet with the tweeter, you're already looking at 50+ pounds. One 18" in a large cabinet could be closer to 75+ pounds. Realistically, you could want to move these some day. It's a serious enough rig to go put on a concert in a small gymnasium or a bar. It's possible to bring to an apartment in your second year of college (but probably not a dorm), and those apartments are often on the second floor with no elevator. Also, depending on your vehicle it might not even be possible to transport these things as monoliths.
At a bare minimum, you should break this up into sub 100 pound chunks. If you want it to be even more useful, consider adding handles, corner protectors, and pro-type speaker connectors. If you go through with something this badical, you won't regret the few extra touches that turn this from a monster that sits in your livingroom to a possible source of income.
How about that...exstra income....I would like that...but then I would do different
But guys, excuse me...I know I am teasing you enough
But here is what I really would like to do with this project....not your kind of thing I know.....just a different way....and different result
I would choose 6"...ALPHA 6 A....could make for higher cross point
And I would have only a lowpass filter....so no cross at lowend
18" in closed with low Q
I would use PLATEamp with mild Eq
Tweeterhorn.....I guess I would make my own waveguide in wood
I bet it would be real HighEnd killer.....it IS possible
And sensitivity is still above 95db...I want it myself
But guys, excuse me...I know I am teasing you enough
But here is what I really would like to do with this project....not your kind of thing I know.....just a different way....and different result
I would choose 6"...ALPHA 6 A....could make for higher cross point
And I would have only a lowpass filter....so no cross at lowend
18" in closed with low Q
I would use PLATEamp with mild Eq
Tweeterhorn.....I guess I would make my own waveguide in wood
I bet it would be real HighEnd killer.....it IS possible
And sensitivity is still above 95db...I want it myself
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