Indian classical and lyrics
Reading all your posts here takes me back to one of those questions I've never quite figured out: what exactly is the role of lyrics in music, given the existence of something like Hindustani (i.e. North Indian) classical music?
Before I proceed, remember, I understand next to nothing about the theory of Indian classical music. I just love to listen to it, much like an ignorant illiterate villager.
In the Hindustani classical musical tradition, lyrics are only placeholders. The focus is on raw sound. The most fundamental sound is that of the "Om" or "Aum" (it's not accurately transcribed in English), a sound which has great spiritual and metaphysical significance. Some thinkers have drawn parallels between this emphasis on the primordial sound and the mention of "the word" in the beginning of the Book of Genesis in Christian theology. I believe there's a passage which goes "At first there was the word, and the word was God." (Forgive me if I'm wrong... I really know very little about all this.) (The Book of Genesis has English of unbelievable beauty and grandeur, by the way. Totally off-topic, I know.)
Back to Hindustani classical music. In this tradition, the sound is everything, and lyrics are just used as mood builders or tools of the trade, in a sense. And the most perfect musical instrument is believed to be the human voice. All other instruments are viewed as imperfect attempts to replicate the flexibility and expressive power of the human voice. Instruments like the violin come close, because there's no plucking, and it can glide without any attack from note to note with infinite delicacy. (For the same reason, the piano is believed to be about as unsuitable as one can get, for this style of music.)
In a Hindustani classical performance, the singer (or the musician) will be playing a "raga". I don't know how to define a "raga", but one can say that it's a sort of definition of a musical form, within which the singer has scope for infinite improvisation. The only restrictions are the list of notes which is permitted and the list that is prohibited for a particular raga. Within this broad structure, the singer has huge liberty to do what he wants to bring out the spirit of the raga, as long as he confines himself to the list of permitted notes. He may choose to use a two-line couplet as a tool, and he then repeats the same two lines over and over again for perhaps an hour, using slight variations of "tune" each time. Sometimes, he uses just pure sound, without lyrics. As one can guess by now, Hindustani classical musical creations are totally abstract. And two performances of the same "raga" by the same singer may sound quite different, though both will attempt to bring out the same essence or spirit or (to use a very limited word) mood, because it's the same "raga".
As I said, I understand next to nothing of the theory of all this, but I am completely mesmerised by the beauty of this music. The only other musical tradition which comes even remotely close to Hindustani classical in its abstract nature and scope for improvisation is jazz.
When I hear the (classical) singer using words, I can usually feel that the words add something to the interpretation of the "raga." It helps me feel the spirit of the "raga" more easily. But when I listen for an hour to a performance which just has meaningless sounds from the singer's throat, I can see pictures and patterns of incredible beauty, and words are just not needed. Even this form makes sense.
Whenever I think of this question of "why lyrics", I think of Hindustani classical. Do lyrics somehow serve to create a kind of music which is less abstract? To break out of the bonds of the explicit imagery created by words, you probably have to abandon lyrics. But then, good poetry can be incredibly abstract too, and makes you break out of the limits of concrete imagery into a transcendental realm just like pure sound. There's this phrase "... a garland of freshly-cut tears..." in Cohen's "Take this Waltz." Each time I remember the words, it brings up fresh meaning.
So, when we hear abstract music or poetry, what really do we hear? Do we hear a lot of what the singer is singing? Or do we just allow the sounds and poetry to trigger imagery in our minds, such that most of our actual experience of the music is what's created in our heads, with only little of direct input from the singer?
Just wanted to share my thoughts and confusion. I don't understand any of this.
BTW, in case you're curious, I love all kinds of music, other than recent pop and techno and stuff. I like Deep Purple as much as dhrupad. But as I tend to grow older, I seem to lean towards the abstract more and more. Just a statistical observation. (I'm thirty-eight now.) I'm not even sure this trend won't reverse in a few years. Maybe as I grow older, I'll begin to love Britney Spears and Madonna more.
Hope all this made some sense to some of you.
Tarun
Reading all your posts here takes me back to one of those questions I've never quite figured out: what exactly is the role of lyrics in music, given the existence of something like Hindustani (i.e. North Indian) classical music?
Before I proceed, remember, I understand next to nothing about the theory of Indian classical music. I just love to listen to it, much like an ignorant illiterate villager.
In the Hindustani classical musical tradition, lyrics are only placeholders. The focus is on raw sound. The most fundamental sound is that of the "Om" or "Aum" (it's not accurately transcribed in English), a sound which has great spiritual and metaphysical significance. Some thinkers have drawn parallels between this emphasis on the primordial sound and the mention of "the word" in the beginning of the Book of Genesis in Christian theology. I believe there's a passage which goes "At first there was the word, and the word was God." (Forgive me if I'm wrong... I really know very little about all this.) (The Book of Genesis has English of unbelievable beauty and grandeur, by the way. Totally off-topic, I know.)
Back to Hindustani classical music. In this tradition, the sound is everything, and lyrics are just used as mood builders or tools of the trade, in a sense. And the most perfect musical instrument is believed to be the human voice. All other instruments are viewed as imperfect attempts to replicate the flexibility and expressive power of the human voice. Instruments like the violin come close, because there's no plucking, and it can glide without any attack from note to note with infinite delicacy. (For the same reason, the piano is believed to be about as unsuitable as one can get, for this style of music.)
In a Hindustani classical performance, the singer (or the musician) will be playing a "raga". I don't know how to define a "raga", but one can say that it's a sort of definition of a musical form, within which the singer has scope for infinite improvisation. The only restrictions are the list of notes which is permitted and the list that is prohibited for a particular raga. Within this broad structure, the singer has huge liberty to do what he wants to bring out the spirit of the raga, as long as he confines himself to the list of permitted notes. He may choose to use a two-line couplet as a tool, and he then repeats the same two lines over and over again for perhaps an hour, using slight variations of "tune" each time. Sometimes, he uses just pure sound, without lyrics. As one can guess by now, Hindustani classical musical creations are totally abstract. And two performances of the same "raga" by the same singer may sound quite different, though both will attempt to bring out the same essence or spirit or (to use a very limited word) mood, because it's the same "raga".
As I said, I understand next to nothing of the theory of all this, but I am completely mesmerised by the beauty of this music. The only other musical tradition which comes even remotely close to Hindustani classical in its abstract nature and scope for improvisation is jazz.
When I hear the (classical) singer using words, I can usually feel that the words add something to the interpretation of the "raga." It helps me feel the spirit of the "raga" more easily. But when I listen for an hour to a performance which just has meaningless sounds from the singer's throat, I can see pictures and patterns of incredible beauty, and words are just not needed. Even this form makes sense.
Whenever I think of this question of "why lyrics", I think of Hindustani classical. Do lyrics somehow serve to create a kind of music which is less abstract? To break out of the bonds of the explicit imagery created by words, you probably have to abandon lyrics. But then, good poetry can be incredibly abstract too, and makes you break out of the limits of concrete imagery into a transcendental realm just like pure sound. There's this phrase "... a garland of freshly-cut tears..." in Cohen's "Take this Waltz." Each time I remember the words, it brings up fresh meaning.
So, when we hear abstract music or poetry, what really do we hear? Do we hear a lot of what the singer is singing? Or do we just allow the sounds and poetry to trigger imagery in our minds, such that most of our actual experience of the music is what's created in our heads, with only little of direct input from the singer?
Just wanted to share my thoughts and confusion. I don't understand any of this.
BTW, in case you're curious, I love all kinds of music, other than recent pop and techno and stuff. I like Deep Purple as much as dhrupad. But as I tend to grow older, I seem to lean towards the abstract more and more. Just a statistical observation. (I'm thirty-eight now.) I'm not even sure this trend won't reverse in a few years.
Maybe as I grow older, I'll begin to love Britney Spears and Madonna more. Hope all this made some sense to some of you.
Tarun
When you talk about lyrics do you mean the lyrics written by the song writer or the lyrics sung by the singer? These are completely different in my opinion (yes I know, worth nothing, just like everyone elses), for I find what is often lacking in todays music (mostly pop I guess) is singers that write their own songs, for then they sing it the way it was meant to by the song writer (them).
Catchy singing, that sounds pleasing (not bad voices) that blend well with the instruments to form the music, and not singing over the music is absolutely essential to me. It's not that I won't listen to music I like that doesn't have good singing, it's just that I don't like music that doesn't have good singing.
And while sometimes there is a song I like alot, great music, sounds good, everything's great except the lyrics talk about the most imature useless thing, or say something I don't agree with, well that always puts a downer on the song and it's less enjoyable to me.
If you want an example of modern songwriting/singing that is amazing IMHO (most of what is put out today is admitedly horrible, probably because there is so much of it and "artists" like Britney Spears make so much money, but there are still some nice musicians out there if you look, well, listen hard enough) check out anything by Tomas Kalnoky, like "The Bandits of the Accoustic Revolution", their EP "A Call to Arms" is availble to download off their site (admitedly MP3s, but still great music) or "Streetlight Manifesto" - "Everything Goes Numb" is such a great album that was painstakingly prepared it's amazing they put so much effort into it even though they weren't payed the big bucks on a big record company. Although it may not be your genre of music, they're are such great lyrics that not many people could sing, they're very fast, yet the singer manages to articulate every word and keep it sounding great.
Catchy singing, that sounds pleasing (not bad voices) that blend well with the instruments to form the music, and not singing over the music is absolutely essential to me. It's not that I won't listen to music I like that doesn't have good singing, it's just that I don't like music that doesn't have good singing.
And while sometimes there is a song I like alot, great music, sounds good, everything's great except the lyrics talk about the most imature useless thing, or say something I don't agree with, well that always puts a downer on the song and it's less enjoyable to me.
If you want an example of modern songwriting/singing that is amazing IMHO (most of what is put out today is admitedly horrible, probably because there is so much of it and "artists" like Britney Spears make so much money, but there are still some nice musicians out there if you look, well, listen hard enough) check out anything by Tomas Kalnoky, like "The Bandits of the Accoustic Revolution", their EP "A Call to Arms" is availble to download off their site (admitedly MP3s, but still great music) or "Streetlight Manifesto" - "Everything Goes Numb" is such a great album that was painstakingly prepared it's amazing they put so much effort into it even though they weren't payed the big bucks on a big record company. Although it may not be your genre of music, they're are such great lyrics that not many people could sing, they're very fast, yet the singer manages to articulate every word and keep it sounding great.
Re: Re: The final cut Pink Floyd
Yep I'd have to agree that the sax at the end is pretty darn good
I like that you can listen to the album many times and still get something new out of it....... Like most pink floyd it gets better the more you listen to it, rather than the other way around.....
My intro to Pink Floyd was a tape a friend gave me back in 81 The Wall.... He said make sure you listen to this at least a few times (prefferably late at night before you go to bed) before you pass judgement on it, you might not like it the first time you hear it, but if you give it a chance it will grow on you. He was right
The second album was final cut, although I have almost all their albums in one form or another now.
I made a compilation I called mostly instrumentals (although there are songs with lyrics in them ).......
Originally I didn't have wywh on the end but added it in later.
Regards,
Tony.
Lisandro_P said:
Yep I'd have to agree that the sax at the end is pretty darn good
I like that you can listen to the album many times and still get something new out of it....... Like most pink floyd it gets better the more you listen to it, rather than the other way around.....
My intro to Pink Floyd was a tape a friend gave me back in 81 The Wall.... He said make sure you listen to this at least a few times (prefferably late at night before you go to bed) before you pass judgement on it, you might not like it the first time you hear it, but if you give it a chance it will grow on you. He was right
The second album was final cut, although I have almost all their albums in one form or another now.
I made a compilation I called mostly instrumentals (although there are songs with lyrics in them
).......Originally I didn't have wywh on the end but added it in later.
Regards,
Tony.
Attachments
How important are lyrics, hmmm
If the song is well recorded and has a brilliant vocalist but the lyrics sung are dull then I could not be bothered.
But if the all the above is present but the lyrics are obseen or offensive I wont like it. Period........ there we go 8 of em to prove it!
And the story is similar the other way around, if the recording is crap but it has wonderful lyrics I wont listen to it, I cant abide poor recording quality.
Its interesting too that its mainly the vocals, I dont like bad singers, a good one makes all the difference. For instance my brother listens to linkin park and music like that. I cant stand that type of music. Mainly because they guys all scream dwn the mike or half witter some mindless crap. I cant stand tool because of the bad language. BUT I like a couple of linkin tracks even tho its the same genre because they guy has got a good voice and sometimes decides NOT to growl and scream.
I also prefer woman vocalists because they are nicer to my ears to listen to.
If the song is well recorded and has a brilliant vocalist but the lyrics sung are dull then I could not be bothered.
But if the all the above is present but the lyrics are obseen or offensive I wont like it. Period........ there we go 8 of em to prove it!
And the story is similar the other way around, if the recording is crap but it has wonderful lyrics I wont listen to it, I cant abide poor recording quality.
Its interesting too that its mainly the vocals, I dont like bad singers, a good one makes all the difference. For instance my brother listens to linkin park and music like that. I cant stand that type of music. Mainly because they guys all scream dwn the mike or half witter some mindless crap. I cant stand tool because of the bad language. BUT I like a couple of linkin tracks even tho its the same genre because they guy has got a good voice and sometimes decides NOT to growl and scream.
I also prefer woman vocalists because they are nicer to my ears to listen to.
I have just recently started perusing the DIY. I am surprised to find Adrian Belew fans. Cool. Just listened to Lone Rhino today.
I enjoy listening to a good song which is well written. I enjoy reading; and I reckon good lyrics are to me, the same as a great book.
A few thoughts; I have always thought it really cool that Robert Plant mentioned Tolkein in a song.
"T'was in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
But Gollum, and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her, her, her....yeah. "
Also for great Lyrics: Elvis Costello: Mystery Dancethe name of my race team) what a great tune!
"Well I remember when the lights went out
and I was tryin' to make it look like it was never in doubt.
She thought that I knew, and I thought that she knew,
so both of us were willing, but we didn't know how to do it."
Also, Almost any Tragically Hip album. Always great lyrics and great music.
I could go on: but I will end with another favorite band: School of Fish. Again, great lyrics and great music.
I enjoy listening to a good song which is well written. I enjoy reading; and I reckon good lyrics are to me, the same as a great book.
A few thoughts; I have always thought it really cool that Robert Plant mentioned Tolkein in a song.
"T'was in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
But Gollum, and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her, her, her....yeah. "
Also for great Lyrics: Elvis Costello: Mystery Dance
the name of my race team) what a great tune! "Well I remember when the lights went out
and I was tryin' to make it look like it was never in doubt.
She thought that I knew, and I thought that she knew,
so both of us were willing, but we didn't know how to do it."
Also, Almost any Tragically Hip album. Always great lyrics and great music.
I could go on: but I will end with another favorite band: School of Fish. Again, great lyrics and great music.
How bout Nick Lowe:
Marie Provost did not look her best
the day the cops bust into her lonely nest
in the cheap hotel up on Hollywood west
July 29
She'd been lyin' there for two or three weeks
The neighbors said they never heard a squeak
While hungry eyes that could not speak
said even little doggies have got to eat
Good to sing along to,
to stay awake,
when driving alone,
late at night.
Sing loud and with passion,
unembarrassed to be yourself,
your alone,
Except for that cute girl who’s been watching,
for the last 90 seconds,
at the crossroad red light.
Marie Provost did not look her best
the day the cops bust into her lonely nest
in the cheap hotel up on Hollywood west
July 29
She'd been lyin' there for two or three weeks
The neighbors said they never heard a squeak
While hungry eyes that could not speak
said even little doggies have got to eat
Good to sing along to,
to stay awake,
when driving alone,
late at night.
Sing loud and with passion,
unembarrassed to be yourself,
your alone,
Except for that cute girl who’s been watching,
for the last 90 seconds,
at the crossroad red light.
If the music is bad I don't make it to the lyrics. If the music is good I'll listen to the lyrics. If they're infantile I may or may not listen again. The songs I listen to over and over are the ones that sound good and create mental pictures by the selection of words. An example would be using "crossed the Rubicon" instead of "gone too far".
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