Dear Sirs,
I would be very interested in knowing if you base your choiche more on the hear or on objective electrical measurements during the construction of your prototype.
I have heard that some manufactures claim that they use squads of golden ears for the fine tuning of their equipment.
Are they joking or are they serious?
Thank you to all.
Regards,
beppe61
I would be very interested in knowing if you base your choiche more on the hear or on objective electrical measurements during the construction of your prototype.
I have heard that some manufactures claim that they use squads of golden ears for the fine tuning of their equipment.
Are they joking or are they serious?
Thank you to all.
Regards,
beppe61
To all:
Please have in mind that sound is individual.....
Some like distorted sound, some sterile and other somewhere in between....
The most important factor in all diy is. " DO YOU LIKE IT YOUR SELF ?"
Nevermind what other thinks..... You are the one having to listen to it every day................
Please have in mind that sound is individual.....
Some like distorted sound, some sterile and other somewhere in between....
The most important factor in all diy is. " DO YOU LIKE IT YOUR SELF ?"
Nevermind what other thinks..... You are the one having to listen to it every day................
keyser said:
Dear Mr. Keyser,
Thank you very much for your kind and valuable reply.
I can understand that you are with objectivists (people who relate on measurements to assess the quality of an audio equipment).
I must confess you that I am quite disorientated.
Do you know all the discussion about a line preamp from Morrison brand called Elad?
I have a copy of the magazine AUDIO CRITIC where it was nominated the best line preamp on the market on the basis of its exceptional set of electric measurements.
I report some excerpts from that issue:
" Flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise - this is what we can hear"
" Go out today and spend big bucks on new tube equipment is the height of folly. If the tube happens to be a single-ended triode amplifier, then folly is too weak a word: idiocy would be more appropriate"
" High-end power amplifiers or preamps don't sound better than mid price units (Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha, ecc.) with similar specifications".
Are you on the same track?
Following your opinion an audio equipment that measure well sound fine. Am I wrong?
If so, this is a fundamental achievement in judging a stereo equipment because pres or amps with very good specs are readily available at human prices.
Thank you very much for your interesting opinion that deserves further comments from other people attending this forums.
Kind regards,
beppe61
Hi beppe61,
It's true that things that measure well can sound bad. It's also true that something that sounds bad can sometimes be measured. I don't believe it is possible to create something on listening tests alone. In creating an amplifier, I will listen to it. If it doesn't sound right in some way, further investigation will reveal the cause. I've done this many times with my own designs and those of others.
Finally, good design practice is important. When you turn the power switch on you must be assured of getting music, not smoke. Many commercial products fall short here too.
Finally, "golden ears" have proved to be faulty many times. If you read the mags, it's "the product of the month". Give me a break, there are several products that have stood the test of time and got bad reviews. What I have seen is that the better a piece of gear is, the more people like the sound of it. The other thing that's true is that two amplifiers with very similar specs can sound vastly different. Cheap, light stuff will not sound as good as properly designed and built stuff.
-Chris
It's true that things that measure well can sound bad. It's also true that something that sounds bad can sometimes be measured. I don't believe it is possible to create something on listening tests alone. In creating an amplifier, I will listen to it. If it doesn't sound right in some way, further investigation will reveal the cause. I've done this many times with my own designs and those of others.
Finally, good design practice is important. When you turn the power switch on you must be assured of getting music, not smoke. Many commercial products fall short here too.
Finally, "golden ears" have proved to be faulty many times. If you read the mags, it's "the product of the month". Give me a break, there are several products that have stood the test of time and got bad reviews. What I have seen is that the better a piece of gear is, the more people like the sound of it. The other thing that's true is that two amplifiers with very similar specs can sound vastly different. Cheap, light stuff will not sound as good as properly designed and built stuff.
-Chris
I don't have "golden ears" so I don't particularly care what their opinion is. That is not to say their opinion is worth less than anyone else's, but it's also not worth more.
Ever listen to someone else's system and think it sounds terrible, even though they love it? That's why I have my own stuff.
Ever listen to someone else's system and think it sounds terrible, even though they love it? That's why I have my own stuff.
Beppe,
this discussion is like so many others about audible differences between amplifiers. Yes, I am of the "Objectivist Camp"...
In my view, there are hardly differences to be found. As long as amps are not driven into clipping, all well designed amps should sound the same.
With the help of a friend, I did a single blind test between a reasonably expensive hifi-poweramp, and a cheapo PA-poweramp. Both have over 120 watts @ 8 ohm.
My own ears (or: brain, which actually is a lot more important) is not capable of discerning the difference between 0,001 % THD, or 0,1 % THD. Or the difference between -110 db crosstalk, or -80 db crosstalk. Or whatever else is electrically different between these two ams! On paper the hifi-amp is better on all fronts, in practice, none of this is audible.
You'd be hard pushed to find an amp that sounds bad. Some designs are not good, but an amp that truely sounds bad, is a rare thing.
If you are buying your own amp, just make sure to buy enough power. For a bit more money, you can buy quite a lot more power. Especially PA-amps offer a lot of bang for the buck.
Usually, an amp is a piece of equipement you buy, and use till it brakes down (after a long life). No need to do any upgrades on the amp side for the reason of improving sound quality.
There are reasons to buy a more expensive amp, with similar specs as a less expensive one, though! Sometimes the more expensive amp is better built, uses better components, or looks better. However, sound quality should never be a reason to buy this amp...
this discussion is like so many others about audible differences between amplifiers. Yes, I am of the "Objectivist Camp"...
In my view, there are hardly differences to be found. As long as amps are not driven into clipping, all well designed amps should sound the same.
With the help of a friend, I did a single blind test between a reasonably expensive hifi-poweramp, and a cheapo PA-poweramp. Both have over 120 watts @ 8 ohm.
My own ears (or: brain, which actually is a lot more important) is not capable of discerning the difference between 0,001 % THD, or 0,1 % THD. Or the difference between -110 db crosstalk, or -80 db crosstalk. Or whatever else is electrically different between these two ams! On paper the hifi-amp is better on all fronts, in practice, none of this is audible.
You'd be hard pushed to find an amp that sounds bad. Some designs are not good, but an amp that truely sounds bad, is a rare thing.
If you are buying your own amp, just make sure to buy enough power. For a bit more money, you can buy quite a lot more power. Especially PA-amps offer a lot of bang for the buck.
Usually, an amp is a piece of equipement you buy, and use till it brakes down (after a long life). No need to do any upgrades on the amp side for the reason of improving sound quality.
There are reasons to buy a more expensive amp, with similar specs as a less expensive one, though! Sometimes the more expensive amp is better built, uses better components, or looks better. However, sound quality should never be a reason to buy this amp...
Beppe, the ELAD unit is most likely, to the ear, transparent. But lineamps are unlikely to be driven into overload and it has sufficiently high input Z and sufficiently low output Z to have a flat frequency response in most setups, so measurements do tell all in that limited case.
Other components are different- for example, power amps with "impeccable" measurements can sound quite different due to overload characteristics. While people of a rationalist bent are absolutely correct in saying that good-measuring power amps will sound the same as long as they're not overloading or driven into instability, the sad fact is that both DO happen. Some designs recover quicker and cleaner than others and those designs will usually be judged as sounding better. But there's no simple set of measurements which will show this (there certainly are more difficult ones, though). So it's generally in a listening test that the virtues of a good design come through, once the minimum critereon of good measurements before overload is satisfied.
There are certainly lots of claims to the contrary, stating that all sorts of wonderful things can be audible, right down to the presence of absence of the listener's photograph stuck in the freezer. The one thing all those claims have in common is that they have no rigorous evidence behind them, just anecdote.
Other components are different- for example, power amps with "impeccable" measurements can sound quite different due to overload characteristics. While people of a rationalist bent are absolutely correct in saying that good-measuring power amps will sound the same as long as they're not overloading or driven into instability, the sad fact is that both DO happen. Some designs recover quicker and cleaner than others and those designs will usually be judged as sounding better. But there's no simple set of measurements which will show this (there certainly are more difficult ones, though). So it's generally in a listening test that the virtues of a good design come through, once the minimum critereon of good measurements before overload is satisfied.
There are certainly lots of claims to the contrary, stating that all sorts of wonderful things can be audible, right down to the presence of absence of the listener's photograph stuck in the freezer. The one thing all those claims have in common is that they have no rigorous evidence behind them, just anecdote.
In general, Audio Critic is correct. There's a lot of voodoo. But there's also a difference between "measured" and "measurable." Speakers can be measured very comprehensively, but correlating these to the listener experience is very uncertain. Power amps differ in overload recovery and stability- these are measurable, but easier to judge by ear. And so on and so on.
Hi beppe61
You don't mention whether you have spent time listening to various pieces of high-end equipment. Can you not trust your ears? I can certainly respect keyser's point of view - he listened and wasn't impressed with the audiophile amp. And that's fine.
My position is simple - at least 90% of all audio components are really deficient. In the high-end this figure drops to around 50-60% which is of course much better. That simple stuff like thd, imd, damping factor, linear frequency response can have any but the most rudimentary effect on sound is in my view ridiculous. Once you pass the $40 level all amps have perfect measurable parameters. So, what? Can you build a great sounding piece by only subjective criteria? Very unlikely. Unless it is a full-range open baffle speaker or an opamp based box you still need a good engineering background to come with something even remotely decent.
So, what to do? Listen to as many well regarded pieces as possible. Preferably own a few. Examine them with a magnifying glass and try to find common traits which lead to good sound. Or not. After a while you may get a good feel on how different topologies, constructions, part choices sound. Or you may find that they all sound the same and then it's only important to find the cheapest and best looking solution.
You don't mention whether you have spent time listening to various pieces of high-end equipment. Can you not trust your ears? I can certainly respect keyser's point of view - he listened and wasn't impressed with the audiophile amp. And that's fine.
My position is simple - at least 90% of all audio components are really deficient. In the high-end this figure drops to around 50-60% which is of course much better. That simple stuff like thd, imd, damping factor, linear frequency response can have any but the most rudimentary effect on sound is in my view ridiculous. Once you pass the $40 level all amps have perfect measurable parameters. So, what? Can you build a great sounding piece by only subjective criteria? Very unlikely. Unless it is a full-range open baffle speaker or an opamp based box you still need a good engineering background to come with something even remotely decent.
So, what to do? Listen to as many well regarded pieces as possible. Preferably own a few. Examine them with a magnifying glass and try to find common traits which lead to good sound. Or not. After a while you may get a good feel on how different topologies, constructions, part choices sound. Or you may find that they all sound the same and then it's only important to find the cheapest and best looking solution.
Hi beppe61,
I think what is boils down to is listening to the product in question. The other thing that is true is a unit that measures poorly may become irritating after a while, or after hearing something better.
Now if the unit is for background music the performance needs are relaxed for most people. If you enjoy sitting to listen to music, then it becomes more important. In the end it depends on the end user as many have stated.
One thing that is true, you will normally own a preamp or amplifier for a great many years - at least until it breaks. Spend the money once and get something you like. Buying a unit that is well made so it doesn't break is a worthwhile consideration.
-Chris
I think what is boils down to is listening to the product in question. The other thing that is true is a unit that measures poorly may become irritating after a while, or after hearing something better.
Now if the unit is for background music the performance needs are relaxed for most people. If you enjoy sitting to listen to music, then it becomes more important. In the end it depends on the end user as many have stated.
One thing that is true, you will normally own a preamp or amplifier for a great many years - at least until it breaks. Spend the money once and get something you like. Buying a unit that is well made so it doesn't break is a worthwhile consideration.
-Chris
I have long been a "hifi-subjectivist", untill almost a year ago. I slowly began to "believe" that there is no such thing as belief in the world of hifi. After having read hundreds of pages on the internet, I was finally willing to try some blind tests.
My advise is to indeed listen to different amps, as anatech suggests. maybe you could first read some more about how to do blind tests. Just run a google search, and you'll find numerous links. Try the abx site.
My advise is to indeed listen to different amps, as anatech suggests. maybe you could first read some more about how to do blind tests. Just run a google search, and you'll find numerous links. Try the abx site.
beppe,
I agree with several comments of the previous posts but on my side I can hear differences between amps. But for that, you need a "controlled" listening environment (same preamp, same source ,same recording, same piece of music, same part of the piece of music, same sound level, same speakers, same room, ...). I think that any other listening test is not serious.
Only one "poor" component can make a system sound always the same regardsless of the amp used. On the other hand, a very "good" amp, speaker, preamp and source will reveal the defects of the recordings. Do you want to hear the defects or something that appears more "pleasing"?
Also, "good sound" is different from one person to the other. I do not pretend to know what good sound is. You do not need to go into clipping to hear differences between amps.
For sure there may be a lot of similar sounding amps but there are also a lot of different sounding amps. Can one say that he has heard them all?
For the measurements, if you do diy you must at least measure THD, damping, noise, Square wave with difficult loads at least to see if your new built amp is well assembled. But I believe that the standard measurements do not explain the sound of an amp.
Fab
I agree with several comments of the previous posts but on my side I can hear differences between amps. But for that, you need a "controlled" listening environment (same preamp, same source ,same recording, same piece of music, same part of the piece of music, same sound level, same speakers, same room, ...). I think that any other listening test is not serious.
Only one "poor" component can make a system sound always the same regardsless of the amp used. On the other hand, a very "good" amp, speaker, preamp and source will reveal the defects of the recordings. Do you want to hear the defects or something that appears more "pleasing"?
Also, "good sound" is different from one person to the other. I do not pretend to know what good sound is. You do not need to go into clipping to hear differences between amps.
For sure there may be a lot of similar sounding amps but there are also a lot of different sounding amps. Can one say that he has heard them all?
For the measurements, if you do diy you must at least measure THD, damping, noise, Square wave with difficult loads at least to see if your new built amp is well assembled. But I believe that the standard measurements do not explain the sound of an amp.
Fab
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