w8-1772 has nice mids in a BK20 - for bass impact, BK20 sounds like the mouth's contribution arrives late compared to cone and in that regard very weak compared to a 15" Karlson and weaker than a K12 with 8"
BK20 outdoors, on-axis, cheap but strong Sammisound 8 - mouth open, blocked, mic on ground
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
BK20 outdoors, on-axis, cheap but strong Sammisound 8 - mouth open, blocked, mic on ground
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As a guy that has built several large corner horns, I can tell you that properly done, a corner horn is all that theory says that it should be.
My last set was a pair of DecWare horns with Fostex FE166en drivers.
I have had well over one hundred people come over to listen, and all have said that they were extraordinary. Just a few weeks ago, a sound engineer for a recording studio came by and and declared them to be the best speakers that he had ever heard. Everyone comments on how "clean" they sound.
As you can see, the speakers are large and it must be placed in corners. The room is an extension of the horn.
Read about the theory of horns and you will see that the horn mouth area determines the low frequency cutoff of the speaker. If you want to get down to 50 hz, you will need about 12 square feet of mouth area if placed in a corner. Much, much larger if free standing. No matter how many twists and turns one adds, it ain't a low frequency horn without a big mouth.
Keep in mind that these are rear loaded horns. Pretty much everything above 120 hz is pure Fostex coming out the front of the speaker. They sound just like 6 inch Fostex's right down to 110hz, the frequency where most 6 inch standard cabinets start dropping off. The horn cabinet gives an additional octave of bass down to 50 hz. Because of the nature of horns, this is low frequency sound with very low distortion. Typically only a few percent.
Speaker distortion is related to cone extrusion. Greater extrusion usually means more distortion. Watch the cone movement of a sub-woofer. It can be up to an inch. The Fostex's in the Decs barely move at all. People are amazed that so much sound can come out of a speaker that has no movement. This is the nature of horn loading.
The Fostex's 166ens have very light cones with relatively large magnets. When they move, they push a 12 square foot chunk of air. When a standard cabinet speaker moves, it moves a fraction of a square foot of air.
The horn portion of the speaker adds about 10 DB to the low end of the frequency response curve without needing massive amounts of power. 20 watts is about the most power that can be put into a 166en and in the DecHorn it is LOUD. Like rock band loud.
Big speakers of any style sound different than small speakers. They couple up to the air much better and these are 12 square foot speakers. They couple up wonderfully. So, they do a great job on big music like rock bands and concerts. You will be enveloped by the music. It is a unique experience.
Because of the low end distortion, small music like trios and tea for two, is also excellent. Conventional speakers cannot product the low frequencies without distortion. A typical sub-woofer might have 20% or a lot more. A DecHorn likely has only a few %. Bass guitars and wind instruments are amazing. You will hear music on recordings that you have never heard before. Sounds that were thuds previously are now distinct musical instruments.
There are some drawbacks to these corner horns. They are big and weigh about 100 pounds each. They must be placed in corners. In order for the lowest frequencies to be produced, they must be in large rooms. You cannot create a 50 hz sound wave in a 12 x 12 room.
My own room is 18 x 24. Speakers are 15 feet apart center to center. That means the sound stage is also that wide. A three piece band will be spread out across the whole room. You better have some furniture in the room or the standing waves from the corner placement will give 10 dbs worth of peaks and valleys.
I have a longer report somewhere in the archives here with construction details. These are rather difficult speakers to build. They are also rather inexpensive. $150 for wood, $150 for speakers. A bit for paint and glue.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
Well yeah, even my wife would wrinkle her nose at some thing so gigantanormus* - but you gotta admit, Nelson Pass's Klein Horns are a Very graphic example of what a horn is / how big the mouths need to be if corners are not employed as the 'mouth'.
*she considers Tannoy GRF corner speakers as 'large by modern standards' and modern loudspeakers as 'small'
Hello Chris,
I see that you are in BC. Next time that you pass down 1-5 through Olympia, WA send me a PM and come visit for a demo.
The DecWares are a fair amount of work. Search my name and read the notes from July 2010. It took me about 20 hours to build each one. I wasn't sure if they would work or just be another Internet experiment in kindling making, so I only built one at first. The second took longer because I thought that I figured out some shortcuts.
That added a few hours to the second.
You will need a small table saw to cut the extreme angles and a finish nailer to hold things together while the glue sets. And a big garbage can to hold all the saw dust from all the bevel rips. I still have some CNC top and bottom templates that I made which really help with the layout. If you want to make a set of speakers, I will loan them to you.
Use a builder's square on every panel. Once things go wonkie, you are sort of screwed.
It helps to have small hands. some of the access is tight. I caulked the seams with a paint brush on a long stick.
The designer recommends several tubes of bondo and caulk. Buy a twelve pack. Mine have a certain amount of gluology in them.
After hearing mine, a friend later made a set out of solid ash and fit everything perfectly. They are beautiful. Some people are craftsmen, others are tinkerers.
Consider them a worthwhile challenge. If you get stuck, haul them down to Olympia and I will help you finish them. Retirement has it's benefits.
Dennis
Several years ago, I received a phone call from a man that lived nearby. He had seen my Corner Horn post and contacted my for advice. He had inherited a beautiful set of Klipse corner horns and invited me to check them out.
So I did.
His were boomy. Really boomy.
It might just be the nature of Klipse horns.
Or not. His were in a large concrete basement.
The Decs have no boom. They are a delight to listen to.
My room is 500 square feet and square with 9 foot ceilings, studs and sheet rock. The acoustic treatment is a couple of 5000 pound milling machines and some material cabinets, a motorcycle and a bunch of turntables and amps.
No ringing, no flexing.
I would suspect construction issues.
Dave, hello my friend!
I may have been very quiet ---{due to health reasons}--- but rest assured I've followed a lot of what's going on ---{especially here}--- and in various other audio forums, like SETriodes! Dave I cannot lie. The truth is I absolutely love the design & sound of Scott's Sachiko cabinets! Thank God I was able to hear their potential from the very first time I listened to them. The unfortunate part is it took me many years of tweaking to get the amazing sound I now get today from them, but believe me when I tell you it was well worth all the time I've invested to attain the level of sonic performance I'm hearing from these Sachikos today!
Today about 9 years later I have Sachiko cabinets that are stuffed by ear, using some very thin copper wire from NASA that looks like it's bare wire ---{whatever the insulation is, it's transparent and wrapped in a swirling pattern over the wire so tightly I have to burn it to remove it from the wire}--- but it sure sounds good. In addition to stuffing the cabinets and using different internal wire, I use Dayton PS220-8 drivers with a special cone treatment, running "fullrange," sans any crossover and Fostex T900a super-tweeters, crossing in at 10KHz with their own crossovers.
These speakers can play anything from Prog-rock such as Genesis, Starcastle, EL&P, YES etc. with incredible dynamics & transients at 120dB+ spls without the slightest bit of shout, distortion or break-up and yet they can easily play chamber music or a small intimate jazz ensemble at 75 to 85dB with the correct harmonics, timbre and all the delicacy & pureness of tone, one buys fullrange drivers for, but because of the Fostex T900a super-tweeters, cabinet stuffing and cone treating on the PS220-8 drivers. I get all that fullrange driver sound accompanied with bass that easily goes below 30Hz and highs out to 35KHz! Now that's AUDIO NIRVANA!
All that having been said I would never have gotten here without Scott and his Sachikos, Dave from Planet 10, Paul Butterfield, Mike R. Jon Ver Halen, Nelson Pass and others. Thank you all! At 61, I now own the best audio system I've ever owned and better than I heard in 95% of all the places I've been! Anyone who'd like to come hear this system for themselves is welcome to drop me an email and let me know when you'll be in Orlando, FL. then we'll make plans for your listening session...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
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