Hornresp

[David McBean]

Hornresp Update 3970-160816

Hi Everyone,

It would seem that there are still some "loose ends" to tidy up in the Multiple Entry Horn Loudspeaker Wizard tool.

BUG 1

If a ME1 record was activated and a Nd multiple segment record then changed to Hyp, the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard could still be selected from the Tools menu, generating the error shown in Attachment 1. This problem has now been fixed.

BUG 2

If a ME1 record was activated, and the Nd record used to specify the HF driver and horn segments of a multiple entry system had Vrc and / or Lrc set to zero, then when the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard tool was opened the horn length message positioned just below the sliders was displayed incorrectly, as shown in Attachment 2. This problem has now been fixed.

CHANGE

When a ME1 or ME2 record is activated, the "Record activated" status message is now shown in green rather than red, as illustrated in Attachment 3. The default "Record not activated" message is still coloured red.

Kind regards,

David

 

[nc535]

Hi Jack,



Note that there are two sections in the Help file to read:

1. Multiple Entry Horn Wizard (under the TOOLS MENU heading).
2. Two-Way or Three-Way Multiple Entry Horn (under the LOUDSPEAKER MODELS heading).

To simulate a two-way system it is necessary to create two separate records. A Nd record is required to specify the complete horn system and the HF driver at the throat. A ME1 record is required to specify the offset MF drivers and associated chambers and ports. To create a ME1 record, simply add a new record and then either Ctrl+double-click on the Nd (or other) label in edit mode until ME1 is shown, or directly select the ME1 option using the Driver Arrangement tool.

Once the Nd and ME1 records have both been created, click the Activate button on the ME1 record, and then switch to the Nd record and select the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard tool.



The Multiple Entry Horn Wizard tool can only be accessed from a Nd record, and only after a ME1 record has been activated.

Kind regards,

David

Hi David:
I don't think there was anything lacking in your instructions in the help file. You've reduced to an art form writing exactly and precisely what needs to be said and nothing more. I just didn't take it literally enough. Once I realized what you meant by "creating a record", I was home free. It shouldn't have taken that long; perhaps its the sleeping meds I'm on.

Jack

 

[nc535]

Playing with the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard

It doesn't remember band pass filter 2 settings from one session to the next, although it does remember band pass filter 1 settings. (I adjust settings then press "save" to close the wizard. I then immediately re-open the wizard and BPF 2 settings are gone while BPF 1 settings remain.)

I would be really helpful to be able to introduce relative delay between ND and ME1 drivers to minimize the dip at simulated crossover. Also nice to have would be a few PEQs for ME1, as in the filter wizard.

Jack

 

[nc535]

Playing with the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard

It doesn't remember band pass filter 2 settings from one session to the next, although it does remember band pass filter 1 settings. (I adjust settings then press "save" to close the wizard. I then immediately re-open the wizard and BPF 2 settings are gone while BPF 1 settings remain.)

I would be really helpful to be able to introduce relative delay between ND and ME1 drivers to minimize the dip at simulated crossover. Also nice to have would be a few PEQs for ME1, as in the filter wizard.

Jack

Well I missed the update notice because I had the tool open overnight. I can confirm the filter settings recall problem is fixed in the new update.

 

[David McBean]

Hi Jack,

It doesn't remember band pass filter 2 settings from one session to the next, although it does remember band pass filter 1 settings. (I adjust settings then press "save" to close the wizard. I then immediately re-open the wizard and BPF 2 settings are gone while BPF 1 settings remain.)

It is interesting that you experienced this problem, as it is similar to one reported by 'papasteack' in post #6482. In that case, the issue was with BPF 3 in a three-way system. If the 'Save' button is clicked to close the wizard then I have no idea why the filter settings should not be stored. I have not been able to replicate the problem myself - everything seems to work just fine for me.

I would be really helpful to be able to introduce relative delay between ND and ME1 drivers to minimize the dip at simulated crossover. Also nice to have would be a few PEQs for ME1, as in the filter wizard.

Unfortunately the suggested enhancements would require a fair bit of work to implement. They are probably not going to happen .

Kind regards,

David

 

[David McBean]

I can confirm the filter settings recall problem is fixed in the new update.

Curiouser and curiouser!

The latest update changes should have made no difference to the problem .

Thanks for letting me know that the issue has gone away. Exactly the same thing happened for 'papasteack' (posts #6487 and #6489 refer).

 

[David McBean]

I would be really helpful to be able to introduce relative delay between ND and ME1 drivers to minimize the dip at simulated crossover.

Can you suggest an appropriate time delay range to use on a slider?

Would 0 to 10 msec be sufficient?

 

[David McBean]

Also nice to have would be a few PEQs for ME1, as in the filter wizard.

Would 4 bands be sufficient?

 

[Zero D]

@ David McBean

Probably not going to happen, rather than NEVER = & in less than 2 hours it seems as if it's got you thinking that, it might happen =

Good for you

 

[nc535]

Its a new day!

Re' time delay
we may need it to get mid or woofer time aligned with the CD. These drivers are loaded from as little as 1.5" down the horn for a small mid to perhaps >12" for a woofer. The delay required is this physical delay less group delay of filters. I would venture a guess that 2ms would be a safe max. 1/100 of that seems a fine enough grain.

Re' number of PEQs
Yes I think 4 would be sufficient

 

[nc535]

Even more curious

Curiouser and curiouser!

The latest update changes should have made no difference to the problem .

Thanks for letting me know that the issue has gone away. Exactly the same thing happened for 'papasteack' (posts #6487 and #6489 refer).

Even more curious. I have several copies of these records and this AM, I found the no save problem back again but just with one copy. I played with it some, restoring the BPF2 settings, and the problem went away for no apparent reason.

You may recall that I reported intermittent problems in the past with filter wizard settings not being saved. This continues. I've yet to see a pattern in it.

I next tried to delete the extra records. I confirmed that I was sure I wanted to delete them. I went on to the next record I wanted to delete and did so; then came back to find the record still existed and still exists after multiple attempts to delete and after closing and re-opening the tool.

Jack

 

[nc535]

Here is why I asked for delay. In the bottom waveform, the mid's amp polarity has been flipped, changing the dip at XO significantly. With a delay vernier knob, ostensibly the dip could be minimized further. This optimal delay setting might be a good starting point for the real XO.

 

[papasteack]

I had already asked once for this feature, it should be reaaaaally useful. I lost a lot of time playing with delay in akabak

 

[David McBean]

@ David McBean

Probably not going to happen, rather than NEVER = & in less than 2 hours it seems as if it's got you thinking that, it might happen =

Good for you

Hi Zero D,

Hopefully there will be something in the next update .

Kind regards,

David

 

[David McBean]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the feedback.

Re' time delay
we may need it to get mid or woofer time aligned with the CD. These drivers are loaded from as little as 1.5" down the horn for a small mid to perhaps >12" for a woofer. The delay required is this physical delay less group delay of filters. I would venture a guess that 2ms would be a safe max. 1/100 of that seems a fine enough grain.

I think I will probably show the delay in cm by default, but with the option to display it in msec as an alternative. The delay range would be 0 to 100 cm, equivalent to 0 to approximately 2.9 msec. Precision would be 0.01 cm (1/10 mm) for directly entered values. Using distance rather than time means that the HF to MF and HF to LF physical path length differences can serve as useful starting points for setting the delay slider values.

Re' number of PEQs
Yes I think 4 would be sufficient

Four each for Nd (HF), ME1 (MF) and ME2 (LF) it will be, then .

Kind regards,

David

 

[David McBean]

Even more curious. I have several copies of these records and this AM, I found the no save problem back again but just with one copy. I played with it some, restoring the BPF2 settings, and the problem went away for no apparent reason.

You may recall that I reported intermittent problems in the past with filter wizard settings not being saved. This continues. I've yet to see a pattern in it.

I next tried to delete the extra records. I confirmed that I was sure I wanted to delete them. I went on to the next record I wanted to delete and did so; then came back to find the record still existed and still exists after multiple attempts to delete and after closing and re-opening the tool.

Jack

Hi Jack,

This is all very strange. Try as I might, I cannot replicate the problems you are experiencing. What Operating System are you using?

Kind regards,

David

 

[David McBean]

I had already asked once for this feature,

It seems that with any luck, we might be finally getting there .

 

[papasteack]

If when i add something to my wishlist to Santa David, i finally got it, maybe should i ask a step response simulation (even for multi-entry) ?
I explain : It's a long and hard process with akabak to learn how to play with bandpass box parameters+crossovers+delays to get a 3 ways multi entry like shown below (12"sub + 8"sub + 4"fullrange). Moreover, it allow to see and play with crossover/bandpass ringing.

When time will come to apply things to the real model, it will be a lot harder to change box parameters, so this learning process would be a lot more easy as it has always be with hornresp.

Note about the akabak simulation shown : It started with hornresp of course ^^. The 4" only response is not show in the image because akabak can only show 3 curves at the same time. The 8" comes as "filler driver". I only use 1st order eclectric crossovers, but i'm cheating because the subs got a lot of inductance. From how i understand/interpret things at the moment, the 2 low way bandpass box gives acoustic low pass for driver harmonic reduction, but give some inherent ringing too. With same slope electric crossover would give same ringing, but no driver harmonic reduction.
The step response is probably not the best, but seems not too bad when i compare the few other i see on internet (without convolution of course )
I'll post in a thread every detail when i'll be ready. With work, 2 babies, and garden, it's a reallly long project ^^

 

[David McBean]

Hornresp Update 3970-160819

Hi Everyone,

IMPORTANT BUG FIX

A bug was inadvertently introduced with release of Product Number 3970 -160814 which made it impossible to delete records. This has now been fixed.

My thanks to Jack ('nc535') for bringing the problem to my attention.

Please note that the proposed delay and equaliser features have not yet been added to the Multiple Entry Horn Wizard tool. They remain a "Work in Progress".

Kind regards,

David

 

[David McBean]

maybe should i ask a step response simulation

Hi papasteack,

That's definitely not going to happen .

The impulse response feature as currently provided is as far as I am prepared to go.

Kind regards,

David