Hi Magnus,
I did not make any simulation with this speaker, since the horn was originally used with an Eminence alpha6.
With the alpha, as usual, near roll-off behaviour was very well correlated with Hornresp, but hi freq extended past predictions.
If you feel like it, you have all the necessary data to make your hornresp simulation.
I am no big fan of back chambers in medium horns, even if they smooth the response. Will try and see.
Regards
Miguel
P.S. Pity that the thread about making a separate horn forum has not been very popular.
I did not make any simulation with this speaker, since the horn was originally used with an Eminence alpha6.
With the alpha, as usual, near roll-off behaviour was very well correlated with Hornresp, but hi freq extended past predictions.
If you feel like it, you have all the necessary data to make your hornresp simulation.
I am no big fan of back chambers in medium horns, even if they smooth the response. Will try and see.
Regards
Miguel
P.S. Pity that the thread about making a separate horn forum has not been very popular.
B&C
Mentero
Hey, nice work. I was hoping someone might come along with a good mid to better the Audax Pro 170 or the Eminence Alpha 6.
This unit has the rising response good for horn loading.
I also think the fast flare of the conical/pyramidical makes it somewhat harder to get extended low end response.
Brett
Different than the phase plug shown?
http://www.bcspeakers.com/compproducts/speakers/6pev13.htm
Tim
Mentero
Hey, nice work. I was hoping someone might come along with a good mid to better the Audax Pro 170 or the Eminence Alpha 6.
This unit has the rising response good for horn loading.
I also think the fast flare of the conical/pyramidical makes it somewhat harder to get extended low end response.
Brett
Different than the phase plug shown?
http://www.bcspeakers.com/compproducts/speakers/6pev13.htm
Tim
Hi,
Thanks for the kind words.
Brett,
as Tim pointed out, the 6pev13 has already a bullet-like metal phase plug. Designing and building a "proper" phase plug, integrated in the throat area is beyond my capabilities.
As is , and with little eq, the horn can be crossed over at 1500-1800Hz. I am using 1500Hz LR 4th order.
Tim,
as you said, this can be a better candidate for a mid horn than the Alpha6. Never had the chance to listen to the Audax.
Forgot to mention. The B&C has a foam surround, in case this is a problem for somebody.
PHL has also a very interesting speaker in this Sd range. Have a look at the 1500 model under tags 17cm-medium. No phase plug.
http://www.phlaudio.com/main.html
Regards
Miguel
Thanks for the kind words.
Brett,
as Tim pointed out, the 6pev13 has already a bullet-like metal phase plug. Designing and building a "proper" phase plug, integrated in the throat area is beyond my capabilities.
As is , and with little eq, the horn can be crossed over at 1500-1800Hz. I am using 1500Hz LR 4th order.
Tim,
as you said, this can be a better candidate for a mid horn than the Alpha6. Never had the chance to listen to the Audax.
Forgot to mention. The B&C has a foam surround, in case this is a problem for somebody.
PHL has also a very interesting speaker in this Sd range. Have a look at the 1500 model under tags 17cm-medium. No phase plug.
http://www.phlaudio.com/main.html
Regards
Miguel
Miguel,
I just wondered if you are getting some kind of floor bounce to cause the suck out at 400 Hz. I suppose you could tip the horn up and re-measure from above.
1/2 wavelength = approximately 40cm reflection?
Just wondering aloud...
Also, I looked at the PHL. Lots of output there. Ferrofluid for high power/SPL applications. Different animal entirely from their others.
Interesting.
Tim
I just wondered if you are getting some kind of floor bounce to cause the suck out at 400 Hz. I suppose you could tip the horn up and re-measure from above.
1/2 wavelength = approximately 40cm reflection?
Just wondering aloud...
Also, I looked at the PHL. Lots of output there. Ferrofluid for high power/SPL applications. Different animal entirely from their others.
Interesting.
Tim
Hi Tim,
I tried in different locations. I even tried with the horn on the groud pointing up.
I am almost shure that this is the suckout that follows the l/4 resonance in a short horn, given that the shape of the response in this area is very much independent of the driver used, and it also appears in closed miked measurements.
A longer horn will cope with this. ¿ maybe a backchamber ?
Regards
Miguel
P.S. Tim, ¿ what time is it in Indiana ?.
I tried in different locations. I even tried with the horn on the groud pointing up.
I am almost shure that this is the suckout that follows the l/4 resonance in a short horn, given that the shape of the response in this area is very much independent of the driver used, and it also appears in closed miked measurements.
A longer horn will cope with this. ¿ maybe a backchamber ?
Regards
Miguel
P.S. Tim, ¿ what time is it in Indiana ?.
Miguel,
Middle of the night has now turned to 8:43 AM.
Sleeping schedule is out of whack.
Too bad it is not a measurement fluke with the horn. A rear chamber may help, but that doesn't look like the odd impedance swings near Fc you get when modeling with a odd sized or no rear chamber. No idea, really. Cancellation maybe , but from the mouth reflected backward?
Hope you can figure it out.
Tim
PS Spent a week in Marbella years ago. Wonderful climate, beach, food, along with great wine and brandy. Loved it.
Middle of the night has now turned to 8:43 AM.
Sleeping schedule is out of whack.
Too bad it is not a measurement fluke with the horn. A rear chamber may help, but that doesn't look like the odd impedance swings near Fc you get when modeling with a odd sized or no rear chamber. No idea, really. Cancellation maybe , but from the mouth reflected backward?
Hope you can figure it out.
Tim
PS Spent a week in Marbella years ago. Wonderful climate, beach, food, along with great wine and brandy. Loved it.
Miguel,
do you know if there is a copper shorting ring in the magnetic structure of the 6PEV13 to reduce distortion? They use it on the slightly bigger brother 8PE21 but the datasheet says nothing about it for the 6PEV13. No distortion curves either...
I reckon distortion are pretty low for all these drivers but some "hard facts" wouldn't hurt! That is one thing I like about Beyma drivers.
Guys,
where do one find the fq response graphs for the PHL:s? Is it just me being an idiot or are they hidden on some special place on their site?
Cheers
/Magnus
do you know if there is a copper shorting ring in the magnetic structure of the 6PEV13 to reduce distortion? They use it on the slightly bigger brother 8PE21 but the datasheet says nothing about it for the 6PEV13. No distortion curves either...
I reckon distortion are pretty low for all these drivers but some "hard facts" wouldn't hurt! That is one thing I like about Beyma drivers.
Guys,
where do one find the fq response graphs for the PHL:s? Is it just me being an idiot or are they hidden on some special place on their site?
Cheers
/Magnus
Hi Magnus,
Nothing is said in the documentation of the 6pev13 about shorting rings, and it is explicitly mentioned in other B&C drivers, so it is supposed that there is none.
True. OTOH, manufacturer specs fall oftentime on the optimistic side.
Here are some distorsion figures I took on the Alpha6 with the conical/pyramidical horn at 1m and 100dB.
Please note that my sound card does not have a good headroom, and I was more interested in the distorsion measurement method then anything else, so take this as an indication only.
www.telefonica.net/web/menteroweb/Alpha6100dB1m.xls
No luck in finding the curves of the PHL drivers either.
Regards
Miguel
Nothing is said in the documentation of the 6pev13 about shorting rings, and it is explicitly mentioned in other B&C drivers, so it is supposed that there is none.
True. OTOH, manufacturer specs fall oftentime on the optimistic side.
Here are some distorsion figures I took on the Alpha6 with the conical/pyramidical horn at 1m and 100dB.
Please note that my sound card does not have a good headroom, and I was more interested in the distorsion measurement method then anything else, so take this as an indication only.
www.telefonica.net/web/menteroweb/Alpha6100dB1m.xls
No luck in finding the curves of the PHL drivers either.
Regards
Miguel
Here are some PHL curves I found. If the link breaks, just start at "glosniki" on the left menu.
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=wg_firm&firma=phl&lang=pl&dh=dt
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=wg_firm&firma=phl&lang=pl&dh=dt
hey, just a newbie question. i am very interested in Adrian Macks conical mids, they look tasty and easy to make. someone was talking about the Paudio SN-8 MB earlier in the thread. i plan to get two of these later on, but i want to make a conical horn design for them since they have a nice flat freq to 3khz. since i have no experiance whatsoever in designing horns, would anyone be able to recommend or help designing these? would it be worth making them 200hz instead of 300hz?? thanx for your help in advance
darth_sanchez,
I just took a few minutes to try out the Paudio SN-8MB in McBean's horn response, and I really could not get an acceptable result with driver used on a conical horn for mid range duties. The unit doesn't look bad as a midbass on a tractrix horn with hellacious output over narrow bandwidth (100 - 800 Hz), but mass roll-off or something prevents extended high frequency output in any horn flare I tried, unless one goes to an extremely large horn.
If you care to model it, here is what I used:
Enter the known data for the driver in the appropriate place and use the tool provided to solve for the unknown values.
2 pi steradians
S1 - 70
S2 - 2900
Tractrix
F12 - 80
VRC - 3
LRC - 8
THroat chamber area and volume - 250
I'd stick with the other 6" options for mid range.
Tim
I just took a few minutes to try out the Paudio SN-8MB in McBean's horn response, and I really could not get an acceptable result with driver used on a conical horn for mid range duties. The unit doesn't look bad as a midbass on a tractrix horn with hellacious output over narrow bandwidth (100 - 800 Hz), but mass roll-off or something prevents extended high frequency output in any horn flare I tried, unless one goes to an extremely large horn.
If you care to model it, here is what I used:
Enter the known data for the driver in the appropriate place and use the tool provided to solve for the unknown values.
2 pi steradians
S1 - 70
S2 - 2900
Tractrix
F12 - 80
VRC - 3
LRC - 8
THroat chamber area and volume - 250
I'd stick with the other 6" options for mid range.
Tim
Hi there,
I've been using Oris 150 horn with Focal Audiom7k for several years.
The throat of Oris is designed for 8" Lowther originally, it doesn't couple with my 7" Focal perfectly. Mid to midbass is not so rich as with Lowther.
I've always wanted to upgrade this portion, but also, always run into dilemmas.
Using the originally designed Lowther, I like the sound very much. (I've tried PM4) But that's too expensive & occasionally fails to fullfill SPL requirement. When playing loud to a level & above, it tends to mess up a bit. Whizzer/main cone interferences are indeed audible.
So I guess, Fostex might probably suffer the same problem as Lowther, or even worse. I have not had a chance to try them though.
Taking the PA/MI route, those drivers are all very strong & suitable for high output, but few of them can extend high enough. So a capable high sensistivity tweeter would be needed, maybe for 2k~3k & above. With such xover point & a large mid horn like Oris, 2 sources are separated in a distance which is too far to be "healthy"
So, it seems an 8" coaxial would be nice for this horn. However, good quality, high sensitivity professional coax in this size is really rare. Popular sizes are often 10~15".
I found that P.Audio has such an interesting product. 8in main driver with a coax compression driver:
Does anyone has experiences on this driver?
Or any thoughts?
I've been using Oris 150 horn with Focal Audiom7k for several years.
The throat of Oris is designed for 8" Lowther originally, it doesn't couple with my 7" Focal perfectly. Mid to midbass is not so rich as with Lowther.
I've always wanted to upgrade this portion, but also, always run into dilemmas.
Using the originally designed Lowther, I like the sound very much. (I've tried PM4) But that's too expensive & occasionally fails to fullfill SPL requirement. When playing loud to a level & above, it tends to mess up a bit. Whizzer/main cone interferences are indeed audible.
So I guess, Fostex might probably suffer the same problem as Lowther, or even worse. I have not had a chance to try them though.
Taking the PA/MI route, those drivers are all very strong & suitable for high output, but few of them can extend high enough. So a capable high sensistivity tweeter would be needed, maybe for 2k~3k & above. With such xover point & a large mid horn like Oris, 2 sources are separated in a distance which is too far to be "healthy"
So, it seems an 8" coaxial would be nice for this horn. However, good quality, high sensitivity professional coax in this size is really rare. Popular sizes are often 10~15".
I found that P.Audio has such an interesting product. 8in main driver with a coax compression driver:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Does anyone has experiences on this driver?
Or any thoughts?
Well this thread has been sleeping for a long time, but I have some questions and I'd like to revive it.
Re: 6" or 8" drivers in a midrange horn.
I notice a lot of these drivers have VERY low xmax. Alpha 6 has an xmax of 0! Others like the B&C 0.6mm. What can you expect when the xmax is so low? Especially in the case of Alpha 6. Adrian Mack claims 120db but the cone would still have to move for this.
What should we look for in a driver for this application? Should it have a flat response?
300 - 2k seems like a good range to cover.
Is there a reason not to use a larger driver such as Alpha 8? This driver has an xmax of 3mm and from my sims in hornresp this lets you reach 120db comfortably.
Is it feasible to use an MTM arrangement where you have a conical mid horn with say Alpha 6 either side of a CD with a waveguide?
Re: 6" or 8" drivers in a midrange horn.
I notice a lot of these drivers have VERY low xmax. Alpha 6 has an xmax of 0! Others like the B&C 0.6mm. What can you expect when the xmax is so low? Especially in the case of Alpha 6. Adrian Mack claims 120db but the cone would still have to move for this.
What should we look for in a driver for this application? Should it have a flat response?
300 - 2k seems like a good range to cover.
Is there a reason not to use a larger driver such as Alpha 8? This driver has an xmax of 3mm and from my sims in hornresp this lets you reach 120db comfortably.
Is it feasible to use an MTM arrangement where you have a conical mid horn with say Alpha 6 either side of a CD with a waveguide?
Hi Paul
Unless a coax, cones might struggle to get to above 800 Hz on a horn: what’s the Driver mass rolloff (2 * Qts * Fs) of the Alpha 6 & 8 etc?
To get down to 300 k in a compression driver you’d probably need a 4” diaphragm , though some BMS, and JBL 2482s might do it. But many compression drivers could easily get to 5 k, with higher sensitivity
MTM I think would work similarly to conventional MTMs, + 6 dB but (more complex?) beaming issues.
Cheers
Unless a coax, cones might struggle to get to above 800 Hz on a horn: what’s the Driver mass rolloff (2 * Qts * Fs) of the Alpha 6 & 8 etc?
To get down to 300 k in a compression driver you’d probably need a 4” diaphragm , though some BMS, and JBL 2482s might do it. But many compression drivers could easily get to 5 k, with higher sensitivity
MTM I think would work similarly to conventional MTMs, + 6 dB but (more complex?) beaming issues.
Cheers
nice to see this thread again
funny we test drove the 3rd generation of our PAs top end last night
12", 6.5" and a 1" comp all horn loaded
the 12" was a P. Audio SN-12B on the porn horn from http://www.proaudioparts.co.uk/pornhorn.asp with an 8l rear chamber crossed at 600Hz to a Limmer 042 top section
http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?pg=100&p=ho&spkID=41
the Ciare 6.38MR3 had a 0.5l rear chamber with an aluminium heat sinking plate across the back of it touching the magnet
this was crossed at 3kHz to a B&C DE25 compression driver
due to time constraints we were unable to properly fine tune it before a series of 5 bands were gigged through them but initial listening is very favourable
the Ciare driver seems like it could be a winner for us but later testing and more critical listening will have to prevail first
we're going to be firing it across the fields out the back of my house at some point next week and properly setting the crossover points and required delays so when i've got the results i'll post them up
funny we test drove the 3rd generation of our PAs top end last night
12", 6.5" and a 1" comp all horn loaded
the 12" was a P. Audio SN-12B on the porn horn from http://www.proaudioparts.co.uk/pornhorn.asp with an 8l rear chamber crossed at 600Hz to a Limmer 042 top section
http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?pg=100&p=ho&spkID=41
the Ciare 6.38MR3 had a 0.5l rear chamber with an aluminium heat sinking plate across the back of it touching the magnet
this was crossed at 3kHz to a B&C DE25 compression driver
due to time constraints we were unable to properly fine tune it before a series of 5 bands were gigged through them but initial listening is very favourable
the Ciare driver seems like it could be a winner for us but later testing and more critical listening will have to prevail first
we're going to be firing it across the fields out the back of my house at some point next week and properly setting the crossover points and required delays so when i've got the results i'll post them up
Richard,
Mass rolloff (didn't know that formula til you said it) is
Alpha 6
2 x 0.54 x 118 = 127 Hz
Alpha 8
2 x 0.53 x 76 = 80 Hz
Not looking at a compression driver for the midrange but a cone driver.
What has me thinking is whether it is better to have a 6" or 8" driver in a conical mid horn or a larger driver as a direct radiator. I have been looking at the Gedlee Summa speaker www.gedlee.com which has a 15" driver crossing at 900 Hz to a 1" CD in a waveguide. The on and off axis response is excellent as it was designed with both in mind. It is designed for home theatre use in a small room with small room acoustics in mind. It seems a stretch to push that CD that hard though.
Synergy is your application pro audio or home use?
Richard, what kind of system are you running these days?
Mass rolloff (didn't know that formula til you said it) is
Alpha 6
2 x 0.54 x 118 = 127 Hz
Alpha 8
2 x 0.53 x 76 = 80 Hz
Not looking at a compression driver for the midrange but a cone driver.
What has me thinking is whether it is better to have a 6" or 8" driver in a conical mid horn or a larger driver as a direct radiator. I have been looking at the Gedlee Summa speaker www.gedlee.com which has a 15" driver crossing at 900 Hz to a 1" CD in a waveguide. The on and off axis response is excellent as it was designed with both in mind. It is designed for home theatre use in a small room with small room acoustics in mind. It seems a stretch to push that CD that hard though.
Synergy is your application pro audio or home use?
Richard, what kind of system are you running these days?
Paul
Sorry for the red herring,
Driver mass rolloff = 2 * Fs / Qes,
so for the Alpha 6 it’s 393 Hz.
I think that output is meant to fall 6 db/ octave above this point.
Above the Le corner, output is meant to fall 12 db/ octave.
Le corner = Re / (2 * pi * Le)*1000
Is the 15” in the Gedlee Summa a DR?
System? Still same old mid—fi; I’ve been a bit busy trying to get completed a rumpus cum workshop-music HT room. It should be completed in a week or two, then I can work with space & far less interruption.
I have the system worked out, hybrid horn, final eBay bought drivers & amps making there way across the Pacific.
Cheers
Sorry for the red herring,
Driver mass rolloff = 2 * Fs / Qes,
so for the Alpha 6 it’s 393 Hz.
I think that output is meant to fall 6 db/ octave above this point.
Above the Le corner, output is meant to fall 12 db/ octave.
Le corner = Re / (2 * pi * Le)*1000
Is the 15” in the Gedlee Summa a DR?
System? Still same old mid—fi; I’ve been a bit busy trying to get completed a rumpus cum workshop-music HT room. It should be completed in a week or two, then I can work with space & far less interruption.
I have the system worked out, hybrid horn, final eBay bought drivers & amps making there way across the Pacific.
Cheers
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