Currently planning my new house...
I am in the design stage, currently working on the plans.
I have an approximate 20' by 20' room planned
for my home theater
It will be completly made out of concrete + foam
( the whole house will me made out of concrete from
ICF ( isolated concrete forms ) including floors/ceilings
and for the home theater room i am extending walls inside so it is bullet proof in terms of isolation to the rest of the house ( = more level possible without disturbing others!!!
)
So now i am up to making decisions as to what kind of system will make up the sound, because if i need to take special steps ( concrete horns? ) i need to be able to include it all in the plans.
So what i want :
- Stereo setup ( i seriously dislike surrounds .. personal)
- VERY HIGH SPL ( even if it means a little trade off on quality )
i have almost no cost limitation since it will probably all be DIY stuff
i have almost no space limitation as i can design what i want/need in the house design
Will be driving from computer ( all media from networked computer ) to a DIY DAC = > DIY AMPS = DIY DRIVERS
( i luv you DIY guys
video is all planned, screen will take approx 115" of width from the front 20' wall
listening distance is 12' from the screen
What i have in mind now :
4 18"inchers on sealed boxes ..maybe 6 of em
either local Belisle Accoustic customs or Mc Cauley's 6174
alot of 5-6" for mids
and some good tweeters like the vifa D26NC55 ones..
I can put alot of treatments in the room
as my wife has nothing to do with this room
( ok i traded alot of other rooms for that one and the garage ..ahha )
What do you guys suggest ?
i was also lookin at concrete horns for the bass
any benefit ?
i wanna be able to make cloth move with bass
i was also told to check out the BassMax units?
Please take this thread seriously, i will base my REAL final design on all of your recommendations ..
I am in the design stage, currently working on the plans.
I have an approximate 20' by 20' room planned
for my home theater
It will be completly made out of concrete + foam
( the whole house will me made out of concrete from
ICF ( isolated concrete forms ) including floors/ceilings
and for the home theater room i am extending walls inside so it is bullet proof in terms of isolation to the rest of the house ( = more level possible without disturbing others!!!
)So now i am up to making decisions as to what kind of system will make up the sound, because if i need to take special steps ( concrete horns? ) i need to be able to include it all in the plans.
So what i want :
- Stereo setup ( i seriously dislike surrounds .. personal)
- VERY HIGH SPL ( even if it means a little trade off on quality )
i have almost no cost limitation since it will probably all be DIY stuff
i have almost no space limitation as i can design what i want/need in the house design
Will be driving from computer ( all media from networked computer ) to a DIY DAC = > DIY AMPS = DIY DRIVERS
( i luv you DIY guys
video is all planned, screen will take approx 115" of width from the front 20' wall
listening distance is 12' from the screen
What i have in mind now :
4 18"inchers on sealed boxes ..maybe 6 of em
either local Belisle Accoustic customs or Mc Cauley's 6174
alot of 5-6" for mids
and some good tweeters like the vifa D26NC55 ones..
I can put alot of treatments in the room
as my wife has nothing to do with this room
( ok i traded alot of other rooms for that one and the garage ..ahha )
What do you guys suggest ?
i was also lookin at concrete horns for the bass
any benefit ?
i wanna be able to make cloth move with bass
i was also told to check out the BassMax units?
Please take this thread seriously, i will base my REAL final design on all of your recommendations ..
Can't help you with the speakers, but your room dimensions present a problem. Having the length and width the same is a recipe for standing waves. This will have serious detrimental effects on bass in the room.
I suggest you do some reading up on acoustics before finalizing the dimensions. Particularily with regard to standing waves.
I suggest you do some reading up on acoustics before finalizing the dimensions. Particularily with regard to standing waves.
I think the decisions you make here will all depend on the whats most important to you. Before you decide this based on paper and forum posts, I do think you should try listening to some premade stuff first, to get an idea. I mean, if you make a sizable setup using a bunch of say Scan-Speak midbass drivers, the slit cones for instance, it will give you excellent dynamic performance, great sound quality, and very low distortion. Cost will of course be high, but some pro audio mids can be just as expensive. However, if you say you want a peak output in the 120-130 decible range, it will require quite a few of those midbass drivers for each enclosure, lets say 4. It will require a bit of power to drive it properly, and that will add to the expense. If you chose a highend midbass driver from a pro audio company such as Eminence, or better yet something like the Beyma's, you will gain a bit of efficiency. This will mean you can either use less of them to get the same output, or just as many and have potentially more output, all the while needing less amplifier power. However this will be at the extent of higher distortion and less accuracy. I personally can't deal with that, and would choose the high end home audio driver rather than the pro audio driver end of things.
As for your subwoofer, really, when it comes with excess in a home theater, I think you can never go too far. I am a bit of a bass head, but hey its fun. For the sake of your hearing though, you may want to consider bass shakers, to give you some of the tactile effects you want, without extreme output levels. None the less, IB could be a great option, using at least 4 woofers, but 8 or more is better, no. I also would consider using pro audio amplifiers and crossovers for the subwoofers, to ensure they are fed enough power. This has come up a few times, but Mach 5 audio has some great prices on some pretty high performing subs. The 18" sub is a great deal at less than 70 dollars I believe, so you could buy 8 of those for the price of the McAuley, and get plenty of nice deep, low distortion sub bass. I do not think that horns are a great idea for a Home Theater, not that they couldn't be, but to get a horn that can give you the low end extension you want with a theater requires a very large horn that is probably impractical for your purposes. When you consider that explosions in these movies contain significant content between 35hz and 15hz, or so, a horn that can handle that would be pretty extreme. Watts are cheap, so I wouldn't worry about the efficiency, and just stick with what measures best.
As for your subwoofer, really, when it comes with excess in a home theater, I think you can never go too far. I am a bit of a bass head, but hey its fun. For the sake of your hearing though, you may want to consider bass shakers, to give you some of the tactile effects you want, without extreme output levels. None the less, IB could be a great option, using at least 4 woofers, but 8 or more is better, no. I also would consider using pro audio amplifiers and crossovers for the subwoofers, to ensure they are fed enough power. This has come up a few times, but Mach 5 audio has some great prices on some pretty high performing subs. The 18" sub is a great deal at less than 70 dollars I believe, so you could buy 8 of those for the price of the McAuley, and get plenty of nice deep, low distortion sub bass. I do not think that horns are a great idea for a Home Theater, not that they couldn't be, but to get a horn that can give you the low end extension you want with a theater requires a very large horn that is probably impractical for your purposes. When you consider that explosions in these movies contain significant content between 35hz and 15hz, or so, a horn that can handle that would be pretty extreme. Watts are cheap, so I wouldn't worry about the efficiency, and just stick with what measures best.
I am by no means an expert. I'm learning here just like many of the others around here. I am currently building a home theatre in my basement also and although I do not have unlimited funds, I am sinking a fair chunk of money into it. I also built the speaker boxes for the main left and right speakers into the concrete foundation. I am going to try to fit some exponential horns into the system but right now I have a couple Eminence 18s mounted in the left cabinet and it is all sealed up. It will play sound down to under 15Hz. It makes serious sound at 23 Hz and above. I have lots of work to do yet with damping and the baffle needs to be braced. At low frequencies, it vibrates as much as the woofer cones. You can read more here...
http://gdsamps.wordpress.com
You can read more here... http://gdsamps.wordpress.com
audiopro :
thanks for the advices, but i am already aware of all those constraints ..sizes i gave are just and approximate
and the room will not have straight walls ...
pjpoes :
i would normally not compromise quality over anything
but for home theather, that will probably never see any music at all ..i will be making some compromises toward sound level and low freq response!
keeping that in mind, i do not believe that scan-speak slits or other expensive hi-fi drivers would give anything to the overall feeling of this system
Should i be thinking about arrays ?
i mean , lower distortion, good spl possibilities
i don't care that much about combs for movies,
and other tradeoffs aren't that bad if you pop the volume up ?
the room will also receive alot of absorption since all it's walls will be covered by 2-3" thick foam on the concrete
I really like Graydon's style to encompass the sub enclosure into the rooms concrete building
what are the benefits of that type of enclosure?
It would cost me probably only a few hundreds more to have the walls extend toward to make such enclosures on each side ...could nicely fit 4 18"inches on each side
BassShakers are also consired as pjpoes proposed ,
anyone has experience with some units?
what are the requirements? possible settings?
thanks for the help guys!
thanks for the advices, but i am already aware of all those constraints ..sizes i gave are just and approximate
and the room will not have straight walls ...
pjpoes :
i would normally not compromise quality over anything
but for home theather, that will probably never see any music at all ..i will be making some compromises toward sound level and low freq response!
keeping that in mind, i do not believe that scan-speak slits or other expensive hi-fi drivers would give anything to the overall feeling of this system
Should i be thinking about arrays ?
i mean , lower distortion, good spl possibilities
i don't care that much about combs for movies,
and other tradeoffs aren't that bad if you pop the volume up ?
the room will also receive alot of absorption since all it's walls will be covered by 2-3" thick foam on the concrete
I really like Graydon's style to encompass the sub enclosure into the rooms concrete building
what are the benefits of that type of enclosure?
It would cost me probably only a few hundreds more to have the walls extend toward to make such enclosures on each side ...could nicely fit 4 18"inches on each side
BassShakers are also consired as pjpoes proposed ,
anyone has experience with some units?
what are the requirements? possible settings?
thanks for the help guys!
Hi JinMTVT,
You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
So you've decided on Stereo only - fine, that's your choice. Do you see yourself ever selling the house in the future? If so it may be worth making *some* provision for surround, so you can sell the home theatre as another feature. All I'm saying is consider putting in ducting and cavities so the surround and centre speakers + wiring could be fitted by the next owner. Nothing to stop you fitting blanking panels over the holes for now.
Here are some thoughts and suggestions - I'd love to build something similar in the future - one day.. <sigh>
1) Build simple 'alcoves' or cavities into the wall to house the speakers, then build your speakers with matching baffles to fit flush with the rest of the wall. This allows you to change your mind in a few years time, maybe go from horns to regular speakers or vise-versa. Think of the largest box you would ever want to accomodate and allow a few inches each side to allow the boxes to be removed if needed. Will the speaker be behind the screen or either side of it?
2) Very high SPL = horns! Consider a hybrid cone / horn option to keep your boxes a reasonable size. All horn-loaded is a nice thought but may not be practical.
As you've stated you can use 18" subs, how about:
up to 100 Hz = multiple 18" subs in coffin-sized sealed enclosures (estimate 92-96 dB/watt)
100Hz - 800Hz = single horn loaded 10" or 12" (estimate 104-108dB/watt) horn mouth up to 24-30" square, needs similar depth.
800Hz - 16KHz+ = 1" or 1.5" compression driver on waveguide (estimate 108-110 dB/watt)
16KHz up = optional supertweeter, do you think you'd need one? How's your hearing that high? Your decision
With the very high sensitivity horns offer you're going to need less than 1/10th of the power you'd need with regular cone mids + tweet. Every 3dB increase in sensitivity = 1/2 the power required for same SPL, so to reach 120dB @ 1 metre, you'd need:
Subs: 300 watts (93dB sensitivity)
Midbass: 30 watts (105dB sensitivity)
Treble: 15 watts (108dB sensitivity)
Active crossover - use your PC as it's already the music source.
There are MANY good choices for the 10"/12" and compression driver - that's an entirely new discussion
Take some time to look at some of the horn projects around on the web, search for Earl Geddes' designs, check out the JBL Lansing forum, etc etc.
3) Room treatment is as important as your choice of speakers. Take the time to research other high-end installations or even consider paying an acoustic consultant for a recommendation. Considering the total build cost, a few hours discussing the room acoustics with a professional would be money well spent in my opinion. Apart from room treatment / dimensions, this includes things like air-con, ducting for the projector, etc.
cheers,
Len.
You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
JinMTVT said:
So you've decided on Stereo only - fine, that's your choice. Do you see yourself ever selling the house in the future? If so it may be worth making *some* provision for surround, so you can sell the home theatre as another feature. All I'm saying is consider putting in ducting and cavities so the surround and centre speakers + wiring could be fitted by the next owner. Nothing to stop you fitting blanking panels over the holes for now.
Here are some thoughts and suggestions - I'd love to build something similar in the future - one day.. <sigh>
1) Build simple 'alcoves' or cavities into the wall to house the speakers, then build your speakers with matching baffles to fit flush with the rest of the wall. This allows you to change your mind in a few years time, maybe go from horns to regular speakers or vise-versa. Think of the largest box you would ever want to accomodate and allow a few inches each side to allow the boxes to be removed if needed. Will the speaker be behind the screen or either side of it?
2) Very high SPL = horns! Consider a hybrid cone / horn option to keep your boxes a reasonable size. All horn-loaded is a nice thought but may not be practical.
As you've stated you can use 18" subs, how about:
up to 100 Hz = multiple 18" subs in coffin-sized sealed enclosures (estimate 92-96 dB/watt)
100Hz - 800Hz = single horn loaded 10" or 12" (estimate 104-108dB/watt) horn mouth up to 24-30" square, needs similar depth.
800Hz - 16KHz+ = 1" or 1.5" compression driver on waveguide (estimate 108-110 dB/watt)
16KHz up = optional supertweeter, do you think you'd need one? How's your hearing that high? Your decision
With the very high sensitivity horns offer you're going to need less than 1/10th of the power you'd need with regular cone mids + tweet. Every 3dB increase in sensitivity = 1/2 the power required for same SPL, so to reach 120dB @ 1 metre, you'd need:
Subs: 300 watts (93dB sensitivity)
Midbass: 30 watts (105dB sensitivity)
Treble: 15 watts (108dB sensitivity)
Active crossover - use your PC as it's already the music source.
There are MANY good choices for the 10"/12" and compression driver - that's an entirely new discussion
Take some time to look at some of the horn projects around on the web, search for Earl Geddes' designs, check out the JBL Lansing forum, etc etc.
3) Room treatment is as important as your choice of speakers. Take the time to research other high-end installations or even consider paying an acoustic consultant for a recommendation. Considering the total build cost, a few hours discussing the room acoustics with a professional would be money well spent in my opinion. Apart from room treatment / dimensions, this includes things like air-con, ducting for the projector, etc.
cheers,
Len.
Re: Re: Home Theater planning : ULTIMATE ?? !! need ur input!
Originally posted by len_scanlan You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
Originally posted by len_scanlan
You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
So you've decided on Stereo only - fine, that's your choice. Do you see yourself ever selling the house in the future? If so it may be worth making *some* provision for surround, so you can sell the home theatre as another feature. All I'm saying is consider putting in ducting and cavities so the surround and centre speakers + wiring could be fitted by the next owner. Nothing to stop you fitting blanking panels over the holes for now.
Here are some thoughts and suggestions - I'd love to build something similar in the future - one day.. <sigh>
1) Build simple 'alcoves' or cavities into the wall to house the speakers, then build your speakers with matching baffles to fit flush with the rest of the wall. This allows you to change your mind in a few years time, maybe go from horns to regular speakers or vise-versa. Think of the largest box you would ever want to accomodate and allow a few inches each side to allow the boxes to be removed if needed. Will the speaker be behind the screen or either side of it?
2) Very high SPL = horns! Consider a hybrid cone / horn option to keep your boxes a reasonable size. All horn-loaded is a nice thought but may not be practical.
As you've stated you can use 18" subs, how about:
up to 100 Hz = multiple 18" subs in coffin-sized sealed enclosures (estimate 92-96 dB/watt)
100Hz - 800Hz = single horn loaded 10" or 12" (estimate 104-108dB/watt) horn mouth up to 24-30" square, needs similar depth.
800Hz - 16KHz+ = 1" or 1.5" compression driver on waveguide (estimate 108-110 dB/watt)
16KHz up = optional supertweeter, do you think you'd need one? How's your hearing that high? Your decision
With the very high sensitivity horns offer you're going to need less than 1/10th of the power you'd need with regular cone mids + tweet. Every 3dB increase in sensitivity = 1/2 the power required for same SPL, so to reach 120dB @ 1 metre, you'd need:
Subs: 300 watts (93dB sensitivity)
Midbass: 30 watts (105dB sensitivity)
Treble: 15 watts (108dB sensitivity)
Active crossover - use your PC as it's already the music source.
There are MANY good choices for the 10"/12" and compression driver - that's an entirely new discussion
Take some time to look at some of the horn projects around on the web, search for Earl Geddes' designs, check out the JBL Lansing forum, etc etc.
3) Room treatment is as important as your choice of speakers. Take the time to research other high-end installations or even consider paying an acoustic consultant for a recommendation. Considering the total build cost, a few hours discussing the room acoustics with a professional would be money well spent in my opinion. Apart from room treatment / dimensions, this includes things like air-con, ducting for the projector, etc.
cheers,
Len. [/B]
Originally posted by len_scanlan You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
I'd think about using a #$#@-load of smaller subs, like the Adire Tempest or whatever 12" to 15" offers good value and high-excursion. IIRC the 6174 doesn't go really low unless you use a ported cabinet.
Using many drivers will a) sound more impressive when you describe your system, and b) let you spread them all around the room to get more uniform bass. Corners, mid wall, midway up the wall, maybe 4 columns each with 4 drivers. 4 drivers will be 4x as efficient as one, so you'll approach horn-like efficiency, but with hopefully a smoother and deeper response and easier construction. This may also allow you to get away with using some EQ to get down near the "brown note" frequency range, which will be useful when watching "Black Hawk Down".
"Unity" horns would be nice for the main speakers.
Using many drivers will a) sound more impressive when you describe your system, and b) let you spread them all around the room to get more uniform bass. Corners, mid wall, midway up the wall, maybe 4 columns each with 4 drivers. 4 drivers will be 4x as efficient as one, so you'll approach horn-like efficiency, but with hopefully a smoother and deeper response and easier construction. This may also allow you to get away with using some EQ to get down near the "brown note" frequency range, which will be useful when watching "Black Hawk Down".
"Unity" horns would be nice for the main speakers.
Re: Re: Home Theater planning : ULTIMATE ?? !! need ur input!
I did not ever reserached Horns construction or benefits at all, since i never actually thought about it
the reason why i wanted to bring HORNS in the discussion is for bass and high spl
but from what i can deduct, 100hz and lower optimized horns would be way too big for a regular house right?
what are the actualy benefits of horns in the mids?
downfalls for the same region ?
I actually wanted to use a 2 way + sub for lower end reinforcement ..
there is no point in trying to get the best possible quality out of a home theater that will require lots of excursion and high spls for me ....
would just cost way too much
I will need to design at least 4 other sound systems, in wich 2 of them will be base on sound quality first
( music only systems )
So i want to be able to have time to do them all in my life time ( already got 2 buisness ...no time! )
So what about horns for 100-800hz ?
what would it bring?
and what kind of design for horns?
and what size would it use?
how many drivers?
thanks alot again
len_scanlan said:
You're very lucky in being able to build your dream HT from the ground up! This is not an option for most of us so please spend as much time as it takes to investigate your options before committing.
Well that is what i will be doing! wise advise
I have a few months before starting to build the house
and probably 1-2 year before the actual home theater
......All I'm saying is consider putting in ducting and cavities so the surround and centre speakers + wiring could be fitted by the next owner. Nothing to stop you fitting blanking panels over the holes for now.
I am planning to live in this house for the next 20years+
so there is no way that i am compromising on anything other than what i need/want
I did not ever reserached Horns construction or benefits at all, since i never actually thought about it
the reason why i wanted to bring HORNS in the discussion is for bass and high spl
but from what i can deduct, 100hz and lower optimized horns would be way too big for a regular house right?
what are the actualy benefits of horns in the mids?
downfalls for the same region ?
I actually wanted to use a 2 way + sub for lower end reinforcement ..
there is no point in trying to get the best possible quality out of a home theater that will require lots of excursion and high spls for me ....
would just cost way too much
I will need to design at least 4 other sound systems, in wich 2 of them will be base on sound quality first
( music only systems )
So i want to be able to have time to do them all in my life time
( already got 2 buisness ...no time! )So what about horns for 100-800hz ?
what would it bring?
and what kind of design for horns?
and what size would it use?
how many drivers?
thanks alot again
First off congratulations on being able to build a dream home theater!
Second, you are the first person I have ever heard say that surround sound is bad for movies. This begs the question why, and also have you ever heard a good surround system? len_scanlan has a good point, don't limit yourself now when there are zero negative effects of including surround capabilities-its just wiring!
IMO, stay away from horns and don't focus too much on excessive spl.
Why not horns, well your room is not that big, your planning on at least 4 18's, and you will most likely have an equalizer. With enough cone area, amplification and eq you can get whatever f3 you want. Horns are efficient yes, but they are huge in your frequency of interest, also they are expensive with all of the material you will need and they require some knowledge and experience to design and build.
Excessive spl, this should be obvious, 120-130dB will damage your ears quickly. You don't need it, and the good news is that it is easy to get the 120 dB range with almost any group of 4 18's.
Enough of what I think you should stay away from. I am a fan of IB/dipole woofers so naturally I would recommend that arrangement. Just for reference I am currently using one Dayton 15" IB in a 21" long u-frame dipole, and the f3 is ~28hz (no eq) with proper room placement and the room is a little smaller than yours. Eventually I will have two of these in a 4-way dipole (one sub per cab.) and it is plays louder than I ever need it to. If they were mounted on an IB then they would extend a lot lower.
I would say as others have mentioned, that the room treatment is the most important thing for you to focus on. Definitely round or bevel the corners of the room, this will create some IB sized chambers for your subs and will do wonders for the sound quality. Also consider one to two foot thick panels of fiberglass insulation on the side walls to counteract the square dimensions. The insulation needs to be thick to affect the bass, and of course it will deaden the upper frequencies which will most likely hurt imaging. Something I want to try with thick fiberglass on the walls is some highly reflective panels located at the first reflection points, this should restore the imaging and "liven" up the room a little. If I were you I would spend most of my time researching room treatments/acoustics.
The roof, front wall, back wall and the floor all provide strong reflections which affect sound quality.
Good luck
Second, you are the first person I have ever heard say that surround sound is bad for movies. This begs the question why, and also have you ever heard a good surround system? len_scanlan has a good point, don't limit yourself now when there are zero negative effects of including surround capabilities-its just wiring!
IMO, stay away from horns and don't focus too much on excessive spl.
Why not horns, well your room is not that big, your planning on at least 4 18's, and you will most likely have an equalizer. With enough cone area, amplification and eq you can get whatever f3 you want. Horns are efficient yes, but they are huge in your frequency of interest, also they are expensive with all of the material you will need and they require some knowledge and experience to design and build.
Excessive spl, this should be obvious, 120-130dB will damage your ears quickly. You don't need it, and the good news is that it is easy to get the 120 dB range with almost any group of 4 18's.
Enough of what I think you should stay away from. I am a fan of IB/dipole woofers so naturally I would recommend that arrangement. Just for reference I am currently using one Dayton 15" IB in a 21" long u-frame dipole, and the f3 is ~28hz (no eq) with proper room placement and the room is a little smaller than yours. Eventually I will have two of these in a 4-way dipole (one sub per cab.) and it is plays louder than I ever need it to. If they were mounted on an IB then they would extend a lot lower.
I would say as others have mentioned, that the room treatment is the most important thing for you to focus on. Definitely round or bevel the corners of the room, this will create some IB sized chambers for your subs and will do wonders for the sound quality. Also consider one to two foot thick panels of fiberglass insulation on the side walls to counteract the square dimensions. The insulation needs to be thick to affect the bass, and of course it will deaden the upper frequencies which will most likely hurt imaging. Something I want to try with thick fiberglass on the walls is some highly reflective panels located at the first reflection points, this should restore the imaging and "liven" up the room a little. If I were you I would spend most of my time researching room treatments/acoustics.
The roof, front wall, back wall and the floor all provide strong reflections which affect sound quality.
Good luck
home theater
Don't build a square box room
try for some curved walls, and odd dimensions..
also place as many subwoofers as you can around the room, this will help with standing waves..
No surround??? are u nuts??????????????
If it's a home theater, surround sound is a MUST... if you don't like the back speakers.. turn 'em off...
I'd go with planar dipole line source in front l/r smaller diploles in rear/sides.. spend spend spend!!! you won't regret it!!
good luck...
too many subs for ht is impossible...
also.. think about some form of "double wall" construction... helps to build lf absorbers between the walls in the right locations...
John L.
Don't build a square box room
try for some curved walls, and odd dimensions..
also place as many subwoofers as you can around the room, this will help with standing waves..
No surround??? are u nuts??????????????
If it's a home theater, surround sound is a MUST... if you don't like the back speakers.. turn 'em off...
I'd go with planar dipole line source in front l/r smaller diploles in rear/sides.. spend spend spend!!! you won't regret it!!
good luck...
too many subs for ht is impossible...
also.. think about some form of "double wall" construction... helps to build lf absorbers between the walls in the right locations...
John L.
wow!!!
you guys are all nuts!
but i like what i read
Ok so you are saying that HORNS won't be simple enough and will require alot of space?
( wich is what i will be missing shortly if we don't stop adding rooms to the house plan )
I could only stick to the original plan and use 3 to 4 18" on each side ..i can get custom 18" to my specs from local Belisle Audio company ...should be pretty cheap for the quality ( they mostly do PA stuff ..high quality ones though ..just a tad short of Mc Cauley, but alot cheaper )
Then, to go OB or not to go ..
i'd say, using some kind of TL design
i could use 2-3 18" and use their backwaves to add to the front one with some simple design ???
would that be of a benefit ?
( something like a front firing woofer with the back horned and timed for a specific Hz boost ?? )
I love OB/dipole, you say that you are getting alot of efficiency at low Hz from 1 15" ?
i could do the rear horned subs and go dipole array for mids ... i've done a few OB widerange projects and have always been astonished by the quality ( should i say quantity !? ) of the mids from those systems ..
And about surround ..
has one of you ever listened to binaural recordings with headphones ?
then compared the feeling to "surround sound systems"???
i seriously dislike what most surround systems and recordings do, + i firmly believe that it is a lost of time to try and get a feeling of beeing surrounded by sound
when you are in a closed room where there are millions of unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...
then there is always a trade off in quality because no one with a normal life, has a budget high enough to be able to afford full set of drivers all around driven by the same components with perfect aligmenet and timing
we still are having hard time getting perfect sound out of a simple stereo 2-3 way system, how can one manage to get equally good sound out of a 5-7.1 system? sorry but i have been only not impressed by all the surround sound setups i have heard
Stereo is far from perfect or from binaural,
but it can be control way better, and doesn't introduce mixed up information from behind
my walls create reflections i need to feel at the correct spot
my 2 cents on surround
so up to now,
alot of 18inchers in a TL like enclosure
alot of mids in dipole OB
tweets to match mids
is that a good idea?
it seems simple enough for sure
you guys are all nuts!
but i like what i read
Ok so you are saying that HORNS won't be simple enough and will require alot of space?
( wich is what i will be missing shortly if we don't stop adding rooms to the house plan
)I could only stick to the original plan and use 3 to 4 18" on each side ..i can get custom 18" to my specs from local Belisle Audio company ...should be pretty cheap for the quality ( they mostly do PA stuff ..high quality ones though ..just a tad short of Mc Cauley, but alot cheaper )
Then, to go OB or not to go ..
i'd say, using some kind of TL design
i could use 2-3 18" and use their backwaves to add to the front one with some simple design ???
would that be of a benefit ?
( something like a front firing woofer with the back horned and timed for a specific Hz boost ?? )
I love OB/dipole, you say that you are getting alot of efficiency at low Hz from 1 15" ?
i could do the rear horned subs and go dipole array for mids ... i've done a few OB widerange projects and have always been astonished by the quality ( should i say quantity !? ) of the mids from those systems ..
And about surround ..
has one of you ever listened to binaural recordings with headphones ?
then compared the feeling to "surround sound systems"???
i seriously dislike what most surround systems and recordings do, + i firmly believe that it is a lost of time to try and get a feeling of beeing surrounded by sound
when you are in a closed room where there are millions of unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...
then there is always a trade off in quality because no one with a normal life, has a budget high enough to be able to afford full set of drivers all around driven by the same components with perfect aligmenet and timing
we still are having hard time getting perfect sound out of a simple stereo 2-3 way system, how can one manage to get equally good sound out of a 5-7.1 system? sorry but i have been only not impressed by all the surround sound setups i have heard
Stereo is far from perfect or from binaural,
but it can be control way better, and doesn't introduce mixed up information from behind
my walls create reflections i need to feel at the correct spot
my 2 cents on surround
so up to now,
alot of 18inchers in a TL like enclosure
alot of mids in dipole OB
tweets to match mids
is that a good idea?
it seems simple enough for sure
Sorry if I misled you, no I am getting more than I need, not a lot. I don't remember exactly but its around 105dB in the 30 Hz range, but I never listen to it that loud. Being that it is a dipole it is excursion limited, if I were to put it into a box/IB then I could get at least that at 20 Hz. IB and dipole are excursion limited, rarely is the thermal power limit reached.
No! this will kill your low end, use an infinite baffles.(maybe that's what you meant)
I'll mention it again, you have not heard a good surround system....
unwanted and uncontrollable reflections that just add up and mix with the direct sounds ...
If you set up a room and system wrong then it does not matter if it is stereo or 100.1 surround it wont image properly.
You are building the room, you have the option of dealing with reflections, you are one of the few who can control the room design and all acoustic parameters.
I have personally taken one of my systems that had bad imaging in surround mode and made it not as bad (I have a really bad layout in my place).
In addition I helped set my parents up with surround sound, they bought really crappy speakers and they have awesome surround sound immersion.
THE ROOM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PARAMETER
i will probably have a chance toglimpse some
good to ok surround systems at this next
"festival son et image" in montreal next month
i still am convinced that there is no way to control all the parameters of surround system enough for it to be acceptable ..
have you read papers on how the recordings are done ?
i have still to read one ...could explain alot of things
on what to expectfrom it ..
we have a 4.1 system at my parent's
with all around Mirage recent OM loudspeakers
( my prior system +new om surrounds )
the amplifier is a barely ok Sony ES class D model
but the sound is acceptable nonetheless
but i like the surround effect that it gives
ok the room isn't built for that, lot of defficiencies on eevery side, but still it's pretty open and one would think that it woul result in good direct waves without too much interference
but it stilldoesn't impress at all
Ok the let's start over for the surround
What would be the ideal erquirements for a perfect surround system ??????
( 4.1 is enough or ? )
room requirements ..??
good to ok surround systems at this next
"festival son et image" in montreal next month
i still am convinced that there is no way to control all the parameters of surround system enough for it to be acceptable ..
have you read papers on how the recordings are done ?
i have still to read one ...could explain alot of things
on what to expectfrom it ..
we have a 4.1 system at my parent's
with all around Mirage recent OM loudspeakers
( my prior system +new om surrounds )
the amplifier is a barely ok Sony ES class D model
but the sound is acceptable nonetheless
but i like the surround effect that it gives
ok the room isn't built for that, lot of defficiencies on eevery side, but still it's pretty open and one would think that it woul result in good direct waves without too much interference
but it stilldoesn't impress at all
Ok the let's start over for the surround
What would be the ideal erquirements for a perfect surround system ??????
( 4.1 is enough or ? )
room requirements ..??
Greets!
I'm coming a little late to the 'party', but in a 'nutshell', the room dominates and you need as many channels (and speakers/channel) as required for the space to overload our internal processor (brain) into summing all the info it's being bombarded with. Anyway, spend the next week or three reading all the various Dolby papers, manuals, etc. if you're really serious about building a state-of-the-art mixing stage since that's what you ideally need to experience what the producer envisioned: http://www.dolby.com/resources/tech_library/index.cfm
GM
I'm coming a little late to the 'party', but in a 'nutshell', the room dominates and you need as many channels (and speakers/channel) as required for the space to overload our internal processor (brain) into summing all the info it's being bombarded with. Anyway, spend the next week or three reading all the various Dolby papers, manuals, etc. if you're really serious about building a state-of-the-art mixing stage since that's what you ideally need to experience what the producer envisioned: http://www.dolby.com/resources/tech_library/index.cfm
GM
5:0 Clone 4 Dunlavy VI flush into the walls. Exceptional stereo and multi-channel reproduction. No sub required. Use Coaxial 12" for center channel under the panel for pinpoint voice
WMTMW topology has exceptional vertical and horizontal dispersion, especially when you follow Dunlavy's philosophies of time alignment and 1st order crossovers. Building into the wall, flush with the drywall, hides the size and removes baffle step affects.
WMTMW topology has exceptional vertical and horizontal dispersion, especially when you follow Dunlavy's philosophies of time alignment and 1st order crossovers. Building into the wall, flush with the drywall, hides the size and removes baffle step affects.
Attachments
I think I see the problem. You are looking at it from the other direction, you are thinking that the setup becomes more crucial with more speakers. Instead, try looking at it as the addition of additional speakers adds more direct sources requiring less perfect alignment of the front two. The idea being that in a large enough room the direct sound from the 5 or 7 speakers overrides the decayed, dispersed and reflected sound. The owners job is to make sure that happens in their respective room, if the room is very large like theaters then many more speakers are added due to the large listening position differences and the relatively weak reflections.
Imagine how perfect the room would have to be if you tried to get surround sound with only two speakers, how hard would it be to get the reflection off of the rear wall to appear to be a rear sound source?
Now pretend there are two speakers back there, to simulate a rear source all you need to do is hook it into a 5.1 amp. The same principals apply for surround imaging as stereo: if the front of the room is symmetrical and properly setup, then equal signals sent to the left and right channels will be summed by the brain and the perception will be a central source. This should be the same for the rears, if you plug the rears into the mains channel and send to equal signals to each, it should appear to come from directly behind you.
Same for the sides, if you plug the two left channels into the mains and give them equal signal the sound should be directly to your left.
You are right about the addition of sources creating more reflections, however you are building the room so you get to control the damping and reflectivity.
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