P.Lacombe said:
I think all the above is just crap. There are much better semis today than there where in the early 80s. It's much easier to get gain matched devices with pretty much any capacitance you wish. The design is not -that- complicated to justify such self indulgent claims. I believe in my version all these factors were considered.
OK, I just can't stay away from this....
The problem as I see it is not that those parts might not have been the best for the design, particularly at the time, but we have to remember that there is a wide variation, around 50% or so, between transistors with the same numbers on them.
The implication of a specially complementary series of parts puts us in a subjective can of worms where we have to listen to all permutations of the available parts on our bench. I just can't accept that as good design.
Looking at the schematic, I think it's topology deserves more respect than "only a guy with especially good ears can build it, not you."
The problem as I see it is not that those parts might not have been the best for the design, particularly at the time, but we have to remember that there is a wide variation, around 50% or so, between transistors with the same numbers on them.
The implication of a specially complementary series of parts puts us in a subjective can of worms where we have to listen to all permutations of the available parts on our bench. I just can't accept that as good design.
Looking at the schematic, I think it's topology deserves more respect than "only a guy with especially good ears can build it, not you."
Le Monstre was and is an exceptional amp. Jean Hiraga spent a lot of time in finding a sonical balance with the choice of the transistors. It is not about technical properties of the components, he designed with only with the soundquality in mind.
In fact he studied every used component so extensively that I think others could have designed a whole amp in the same time. Some people I know that built the amp say it only sounded good with the prescribed types and not with any substitute. Not even the same type but the wrong colour ( for example higher Hfe ). They tried to built it with other components but results were disappointing. Even the PCB had a great influence on sound. Some thought a PCB with wider traces would give better results but that didn't work out. I remember that L'Audiophile in Paris sold the semiconductor sets for DIY purposes.
This amp had a great following of people in the Netherlands as well because of its very good sound and was built by many ( mostly without the batteries though ). The S/N ratio was extreme for that time.
So the mystique around this minimalist amp is not made up. The man really devoted his time to designing beautyful but tiny amps with a sophisticated character. The 8 Watts it produces are quality 8 Watts.
So it's a question of quality and not quantity. That may be hard to swallow for some.
To qualify this amp or its designhistory just by looking at a schematic without even having heard or seen it is unfair and unrealistic. But some people just want to believe that bigger is better ...
jean-paul said:
Except that "soundquality" is ultimately a subjective determination. What's being passed off here is the notion that Hiraga's particular subjective preferences are somehow the One True™ benchmark for "soundquality" by which all else is to be measured.
And that notion, in my opinion, is just plain absurd. And the notion that anyone who would dare consider building this amp with parts other than those specified being little more than infadels and blasphemers more absurd still.
se
The amp has it's character because of the used parts that were studied carefully. Rebuilding it with "better" parts must be possible but it will take a lot of time to give it it's neutral and musical soundcharacter. In it's time there were people that tried it but with unsatisfying results.
As P.Lacombe said: a monk's work.
What's wrong with editing my own posts ? Sometimes it takes some time to express myself or if I want to soften the tone of my post in the heat of the discussion. We don't speak english here you know and thus a painful mistake is made quickly. Maybe some better do the same, it is good to read your own post and to evaluate directly Better for the athmosphere.
BTW It surprises me that some can't stand positive comment on a japanese-french designer they probably never heard of before and at the same time speak the same way about another designer of amps
As P.Lacombe said: a monk's work.
What's wrong with editing my own posts ? Sometimes it takes some time to express myself or if I want to soften the tone of my post in the heat of the discussion. We don't speak english here you know and thus a painful mistake is made quickly. Maybe some better do the same, it is good to read your own post and to evaluate directly
Better for the athmosphere.BTW It surprises me that some can't stand positive comment on a japanese-french designer they probably never heard of before and at the same time speak the same way about another designer of amps
Hiraga is a seminal designer of the minimalist persuasion.
He does not need added mystification, any more than I do.
If he were to speak for himself here, I'm certain there would be no argument.
By the way, don't go setting me up as a golden ear, even sarcastically. I'm a topologist by trade, with decent, but not spectacular ears.
He does not need added mystification, any more than I do.
If he were to speak for himself here, I'm certain there would be no argument.
By the way, don't go setting me up as a golden ear, even sarcastically. I'm a topologist by trade, with decent, but not spectacular ears.
Nelson Pass said:
I kind of get that feeling too.
Yes. Though you are in fact a guru, however reluctantly. Fortuately you're not of the megalomaniac, self-annointed variety (and before anyone jumps the gun, I'm not putting Hiraga in this category). You're about as humble as anyone could ask for and rather selfless in the way you allow yourself to be used as a conduit to help others realize their goals rather than attempting to dictate what everyone else's goals should be.
The best example of this is perhaps the Son of Zen, which came about largely from feedback from the original Zen project.
And perhaps that's why I don't recall ever seeing anyone cautioning others not to swap out any components because you'd worn your poor li'l ol' ears down to nubs tweaking and listening to get things juuuuuuuust right.
se
jean-paul said:
Studied carefully by a particular individual desiring a particular result, which is not necessarily the same result others may be looking for.
Monk? Oh c'mon. This is just mystique-speak for nerd.
What's wrong with editing my own posts ? Sometimes it takes some time to express myself or if I want to soften the tone of my post in the heat of the discussion. We don't speak english here you know and thus a painful mistake is made quickly. Maybe some better do the same, it is good to read your own post and to evaluate directly
I was just getting a bit motion sick trying to keep up with a moving target.
The first post I saw was simply "Where can I read that?" which I replied to and then it came up again with an additional comment about a certain other individual having their designs defended staunchly by others. When I went to reply to that, your post came up with only the "Where can I read that?" line of the original post. And then when I pull it up again it added "Only Nelson can qualify for that!"
Hmmmm. Someone needs to make up a blowing chunks smiley.
BTW It surprises me that some can't stand positive comment on a japanese-french designer they probably never heard of before and at the same time speak the same way about another designer of amps
Not sure if you're directing this at me or not, but I'm not bothered by positive comments about any design. It's when comments amount to deification that my cynic bone gets triggered.
se
Jean-Paul,
did Hiraga ever state clearly the criteria of choice for the active components? After he was all said and done and put his ears back in the stradivari case he must have measured some parameters so that the amp could be produced in a small number all having the same sonic signature. Or did he 'tune' them one by one?
Lacombe,
the parallel between a stradivari violin and a transistor, though colorful, is most unfortunate. For example, one would hope that a 20% humidity variation wouldn't influence the tone of your amp as much as the tone of a violin.
I wonder how stradivari sounded when new, my guess is that there weren't many people making violins back then, and that their sound got better as the wood aged, there are many ways in which a legend can be born.
did Hiraga ever state clearly the criteria of choice for the active components? After he was all said and done and put his ears back in the stradivari case he must have measured some parameters so that the amp could be produced in a small number all having the same sonic signature. Or did he 'tune' them one by one?
Lacombe,
the parallel between a stradivari violin and a transistor, though colorful, is most unfortunate. For example, one would hope that a 20% humidity variation wouldn't influence the tone of your amp as much as the tone of a violin.
I wonder how stradivari sounded when new, my guess is that there weren't many people making violins back then, and that their sound got better as the wood aged, there are many ways in which a legend can be born.
You are sure right about the mystification. But he did put an enormous amount of time in his designs and deserves some respect.
I don't set you up as a golden ear. If I would have wanted to be sarcastic to you I would have adressed to you personally. Just got the feeling some measure with different standards.
Can't agree more.
Jean-Paul
jean-paul said:
Oh. I imagined that that's what
meant...In any case, It would be very desirable if one could locate the information on the specific criteria of the actual components used: particularly the beta, and the amount and types of distortion actually achieved in the original. This would at least provide a quide path to replicating his results.
pass/ - has gotten used to a little sarcasm, being married with children
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