HiFi Advice sought

[Ken L]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Elvis has left the room

I mean, er Dice.

But I'm sure that like Elvis, Dice will be seen again in many places





Ken

 

[Gina]

Peter Daniel

I am sorry for the loss both to the forum and for myself. I was just about to buy a turntable and now the best source of knowledge to guide me is no longer available. Frankie (fdegrove) stop the silly threats for the sake of peace and harmony and because you would be doing ill to a decent man. The only thing wrong with dice45 is a wavering moderator rulestick, once he gets some consistency, he'll make lots more friends and won't be viewed as skeptically by members who have been victum of forum rule inconsistencies. My dad use to tell me that if I threw a rock at every barking dog that came my way, my arm would soon get too tired to pick up and enjoy a glass of lemonade. Think about that. I really don't understand why you guys grate each other so much. IMHO, dice45 is a little too defensive about his Fertin speakers and should recognize criticisms from any member about his gear as noisy breath upon the wind and unworthy of reaction if he is convinced of their quality and happy with their performance. Both fdegrove and dice45 carry equally respected opinions (and dice45 perhaps moreso as a moderator) so members reading each of their comments should draw their own conclusions based on their own observations or personal experiences with the products discussed.

 

[planet10]

Promises, promises so where is your recommendation? I have recently come across an old Dual 1264. It's specs are impressive 0.04% w&f, -70dB S/N from a floating chassis but what do you think represent the best value in used equipment? How closely will this Dual perform to a Linn 12? Which are the best units to mod and how good will they be after the mod?

I'm not Dice, nor have i the breadth of experience that he has with TTs, but i don't think there was ever a Dual made that would approach the performance of a (set-up) Linn Sondek LP12 (i have owned 14 or so of these -- my most recent one will be off to Hong Kong soon).

A Rega or a Pro-ject or even an old Thorens (especially if it has a non-Thorens arm) is a good start for a list.

dave

 

[halojoy]

my phonograph pickup line - to give ya idea

I have a very nice Sony TT - DC-motor
I will soon upgrade the pickup
build a little discrete preamp - for a few bugs - hifi
my Harman/Khardon has a quite a good one
but exciting to compare with my own design

please do not refuse
this post
whatever planet your station is on
at least ask Jason first
or get him to email me
it is evidently possible, please
I will answer to Jason, for sure - that's my style
I am no rat, I think, leaving this ship

besides, my pockets are full of sand or is it golddust
copied and store for further use
in case

 

[jh6you]

You almost scared me away with this post but my daddy didn't raise no "scardie cat"

Hi Gina

Don't be scared. You're safe if you stand 60 yards away
from the high-pitched yell: "Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!"
In case, moderators are your bodyguards.

JH

 

[Gina]

Planet10

A Rega or a Pro-ject or even an old Thorens (especially if it has a non-Thorens arm) is a good start for a list.

The Thorens line has very many model numbers that don't appear to have a discernable numerological pattern of prediction for quality and from what I have read about them, some stop working properly the minute you sneeze. I recently passed up a TD-280 in favor of the Dual 1264 because there was no floating chassis on it. What makes the Thorens so much better than the Dual or BIC line for that matter. BTW, I have never seen a Linn for less than $100 (broken) where I have many times seen these other turntables in perfect working order for less than $50. What makes the Linn 12 so special and why couldn't some of these other tables be modded to perform as well as the Linn. Where does the 'magic' come from in the Linn?

 

[planet10]

I have never seen a Linn for less than $100 (broken) where I have many times seen these other turntables in perfect working order for less than $50. What makes the Linn 12 so special and why couldn't some of these other tables be modded to perform as well as the Linn. Where does the 'magic' come from in the Linn?

This really deserves a long post but i have only time at the moment for a short note.

For arguably the most important component in your system, you want to spend less than $100?

In my hifi days i sold many $2000 hifis where $1000 of the budget was spent on the TT. And i have had many a thank you for pushing them this route.

The magic comes from the high precsion required in a quality TT. The squiggles on the groves are VERY small and to get the info out of them you need something even finer.

A decent LInn LP12 will cost at least $500.

dave

 

[pinkmouse]

Hi Gina

If you really are on a budget and want your monies worth then check out Origin Live. Their mods to the Rega arm are excellent, and the kits are just bolt together, very straightforward

 

[Gina]

Planet10

For arguably the most important component in your system, you want to spend less than $100?

What do the current prices have to do with the quality of the turntable? These units I speak of have suspended chassis and excellent specs and cost very near $500 in 1980. I agree that the phono source is critical and perhaps the most sensitive of the sources to improvement but is any Linn ten orders of magnitude better than the ones I mentioned? The turntables I have mentioned are first rate and very musical even with their stock cartridges. How much soundstage and detail will I sacrifice going with these yet unrecognized tables? As much as is reflected in the difference of the prices?


pinkmouse

All the Regas I have seen look terribly flimsy and I'm too faint of hearth to gamble on a used one. The nearly 18" footprint is also a turnoff. Ideally, a 16-17" is what I would like.

 

[Peter Daniel]

I'm not much into TT but my first one was Dual for CAD30, next one was Technics SL 1400 (CAD250) and the current one is Maple Noll with air bearings which I bought for CAD1400. While Technics seemed to be nicely built with didgital display and DD Quartz it was only slightly better sounding than Dual. However Maple Noll is in totaly different class. The music is simply more involving and less boring, that's probably the easiest way to discribe the difference.

 

[Gina]

Peter Daniel

Good to hear from you Sir Aluminous. I am not familiar with the Maple Noll or 'air bearings' but they sound exotic and fragile. Hidden problems, durability in shipping and concealed damage are all serious concerns for a buyer like me. I am not very mechanical and extremely suspicious of used stuff. Do you know which Dual you had? There are apparently big differences in sound reproduction depending on the model. The one aforementioned is arguably the best of that series from Dual even though it isn't the most expensive (the 1219 currently holding that title) according to many people I have spoken to. If dice45 were still here it would be nice to get his opinion on the top ten exotic and top ten production turntables. This would be a great help in shopping for one because turntables are abundant in the used marketplace but I don't know the great from the good.

 

[jh6you]

Ah...? I have thought him petopeous like me.

JH

 

[planet10]

the top ten exotic and top ten production turntables

With the wealth of TTs available today & including ones from the past the best Dual wouldn't make the top 50. Even an old AR (particularily if it has had an arm transplant) will smoke the Dual. I'd rather have a tweeked belt-drive generic CEC (most of the Japanese TTs) table than the Dual (i have a 1/2 dozen Duals in the shed BTW).

The Rega's are so simple -- and parts all still available -- that it is a very safe used purchase. I have owned a couple, and sold 100s. A friend sold his Linn, got a Rega 3 (changed the RB300 to a 250), tweaked the lot and figures he ended up ahead of the game.

Most of the best TTs these days -- particularily budget ones under $500 are unsuspended designs.

The best TTs (in general) are belt-drive and completely manual.

I'll throw out some i'd buy (or have bought) Thorens TD160/165/125. Reg 2 or 3. Unity Rotary Platform, ERA, Connisouir & AR (last 2 are budget).

dave

dave

 

[Peter Daniel]

Gina,

I don't remember the model #. It was probably intermediate model. I paid CAD30 at Cash Coverters and sold it for CAD 200 at local Hi End dealer Brack's Electronics. Here is my TT: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5903&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

If you have enough records TT is OK, but I much prefer CD. My CDP also sounds better.

 

[Ken L]

I sent off e-mail

and then went and checked my old thorens on the shelf to see the model number

Was a model 105

Life is funny. I got the TT in the divorce but she never would give me the vinyl 22 years ago.

So I'm CD and SACD

Unless you just happen on somebody firesaling a collection of vinyl it's hard to build a library of vinyl.

Of course for that matter it's hard to build a library of well mastered CD's

Ken

 

[Nelson Pass]

I vote for the AR. I used to convert the arms with ball bearings
using SKF slot car parts, and I'll swear by them.

Also, if you take the capacitor off the motor, you can play
Beatles records backwards.

 

[planet10]

I vote for the AR. I used to convert the arms with ball bearings
using SKF slot car parts, and I'll swear by them.

They are amazing TTs (especially when you consider what they cost). I have one of these downstairs, someone ripped the cartridge mounting nuts out of the headshell. Need to fix or replace that.

Are those slot car parts still available? Or what would be a good replacement (i don't have a spare Grace or Mayware around at the moment -- that's how i used to fix the arms)

dave

 

[Nelson Pass]

SKF's are still available last time I looked. I replaced all
bearing surfaces except the single ball at the bottom of
the tone arm post. I wish I had kept one.

 

[Gina]

Planet10

With the wealth of TTs available today & including ones from the past the best Dual wouldn't make the top 50.

Noted. I guess the deficiency of the Dual 12XX series is in its auto (stacking) mechanics and that would also apply to the BICs. I have been told that the ULM tonearm on this Dual is one of the best aluminum straightarms ever made so the problem must lie in the drive, power supply or the suspension, is this correct? When you say the AR with an arm transplant will smoke any Dual do you mean an XA, ES or other model and which arms make this magic? When you say generic CECs are we talking stuff like the Onkyo carbon fiber arm stuff or something less exotic and is there a post describing these tweaks?

 

[planet10]

Planet10 Noted. I guess the deficiency of the Dual 12XX series is in its auto (stacking) mechanics and that would also apply to the BICs. I have been told that the ULM tonearm on this Dual is one of the best aluminum straightarms ever made so the problem must lie in the drive, power supply or the suspension, is this correct?

Rght, everything but the arm. The arm is good but i would hesitate to call it one of the best -- but it does give me an idea -- Dual 501 arm transplanted onto the AR (or the ERA or the Unity Rotary Platform) hmmm

When you say the AR with an arm transplant will smoke any Dual do you mean an XA, ES or other model and which arms make this magic?

Any of them. I have transplanted Grace 707 & Mayware, an Infinity Black Widow, and a Hadcock. What you are looking for is a good arm that is not too massive and a mounting distance that is similar enuff that you don't need to extend the T unit.

When you say generic CECs are we talking stuff like the Onkyo carbon fiber arm stuff or something less exotic and is there a post describing these tweaks?

Even the less exotic -- i picked up a Pioneer PL514 last week that would fit in that class ($10 USD).

dave