"None of these folks quite get the message. "All CDs suck ..." - Bob Dylan."
"Well why doesn't he do something about the sound of his instead of talking out his a**."
Contract obligations with Sony (owner of Columbia) does not give him control over the "finished", mass produced CD. (This is not uncommon.)
The suits and ties at Sony are notorious for manipulating the production including the quality or lack of such. Other recording artists have objected, but none have ever been successful ...
elecon: " I own a SONY SCD-1 SACD/CD player and I want to add that it is not always certain that the newer formats like SACD really consistently sound better. ..." what he said ...
rossi (in another thread): " It is my firm opinion that copy protection and DRM are what have killed the market for Hi-Rez discs. ..." again, Sony is the bad guy ...
"Well why doesn't he do something about the sound of his instead of talking out his a**."
Contract obligations with Sony (owner of Columbia) does not give him control over the "finished", mass produced CD. (This is not uncommon.)
The suits and ties at Sony are notorious for manipulating the production including the quality or lack of such. Other recording artists have objected, but none have ever been successful ...
elecon: " I own a SONY SCD-1 SACD/CD player and I want to add that it is not always certain that the newer formats like SACD really consistently sound better. ..." what he said ...
rossi (in another thread): " It is my firm opinion that copy protection and DRM are what have killed the market for Hi-Rez discs. ..." again, Sony is the bad guy ...
This all sounds way too convenient. Two artists of the stature of Dylan and Young, both (at their convenience) critics of digital recording and cd, signing contracts giving them no control over the sound of the finished product.
Man, they are hypocrites, liars or stupid, take your pick.
Forgot to add just in it for the money.
Man, they are hypocrites, liars or stupid, take your pick.
Forgot to add just in it for the money.
" ... signing contracts giving them no control over the sound of the finished product. ... stupid ... "
Sony (Columbia) has several media outlets and venues to consider. Besides video there is public performance, multiple North American and European audio disc format types, etc. No one has ever said that the suits and ties at publisher / producers like Sony are not manipulative, greedy or particularily smart ... and artists and performers might be stupid only if they didn't have agents who have their eyes on the bottom line reward and not necessarily on audio quality in the CD market. Quite often the publisher/producer will release a CD and video DVD in nearly the same time frame, degrading the CD quality in order to make the video "look good" ... this happens all the time.
A discourse on the state of technology in public performances v. quality in CD mass market releases:
24 bit / 96k digital audio is so good that it is regularily used instead of the performers. "Lip syncing" as used in the 1970's by musicians for TV has come a long way, baby. For really large venues where dozen's of folks may have their immediate jobs on the line, using a canned performance as backup is very common if not automatic. A good example that comes to mind is Roger Waters' "The Wall" concert in which he freely talks about using the recorded rehearsal performance to keep show moving when the audio mixing board failed during the live show ... Sinead O'Connors' entire "live" performance, as broadcast around the world, was entirely a playback of the prerecorded rehearsal. (The DVD "special features" is director Waters' discussion of much of the background info. BTW: this is a very good DVD w/ the original 24bit/96k audio track and much better than the audio CD indicates, Cindi Lauper sounds better on this DVD than any of her audio CDs.)
To the point musicians' best quality performances and recordings are no longer regularily reproduced in mass market CD, what with the engineers, the suits and ties' manipulations of the market, the studio and road show producers and directors, the video producers and directors, etc., etc., etc. ... often the audio CD is only left as a means of promotion on the radio, profits from CD sales often being of secondary consideration when compared to road show and TV / video performance profits. But most of the professional musicians know what's going on: their studio and live work being stored on high resolution digital masters (of late often better than 24bit/96k), thus to be "boiled down" to the various media types, CD, DVD, live performance backup, or whatever ...
Those independant artists like Dylan and Young and others may have complete control over the quality of the audio and video masters, but little else. Even if this results in depressed sales of CDs, as it seems to be doing, the sales of live performances and TV is still quite strong and thus the devil will still extract his due.
In North America and to a much lesser extent in Europe, audio CD quality is secondary to the publishers and producers whims. Recently EMI opened the door to much higher quality digital recordings by allowing their European covers to be purchased on Apple's iTunes. It should be noted that almost immediately, the hottest sales were generated by 24bit/48k and 24bit/96k audio than the 16bit "CD quality" tracks ...
It is up to those of us who know the differences and appreciate the better quality releases to demand such.
This is a perfect opportunity for the DIY community to kick the old CD habit and get with the better quality stuff, even if it means ripping off vinyl and transfering it to 24 bit DVD-A ... ala Deadhead distribution ...
Sony (Columbia) has several media outlets and venues to consider. Besides video there is public performance, multiple North American and European audio disc format types, etc. No one has ever said that the suits and ties at publisher / producers like Sony are not manipulative, greedy or particularily smart ... and artists and performers might be stupid only if they didn't have agents who have their eyes on the bottom line reward and not necessarily on audio quality in the CD market. Quite often the publisher/producer will release a CD and video DVD in nearly the same time frame, degrading the CD quality in order to make the video "look good" ... this happens all the time.
A discourse on the state of technology in public performances v. quality in CD mass market releases:
24 bit / 96k digital audio is so good that it is regularily used instead of the performers. "Lip syncing" as used in the 1970's by musicians for TV has come a long way, baby. For really large venues where dozen's of folks may have their immediate jobs on the line, using a canned performance as backup is very common if not automatic. A good example that comes to mind is Roger Waters' "The Wall" concert in which he freely talks about using the recorded rehearsal performance to keep show moving when the audio mixing board failed during the live show ... Sinead O'Connors' entire "live" performance, as broadcast around the world, was entirely a playback of the prerecorded rehearsal. (The DVD "special features" is director Waters' discussion of much of the background info. BTW: this is a very good DVD w/ the original 24bit/96k audio track and much better than the audio CD indicates, Cindi Lauper sounds better on this DVD than any of her audio CDs.)
To the point musicians' best quality performances and recordings are no longer regularily reproduced in mass market CD, what with the engineers, the suits and ties' manipulations of the market, the studio and road show producers and directors, the video producers and directors, etc., etc., etc. ... often the audio CD is only left as a means of promotion on the radio, profits from CD sales often being of secondary consideration when compared to road show and TV / video performance profits. But most of the professional musicians know what's going on: their studio and live work being stored on high resolution digital masters (of late often better than 24bit/96k), thus to be "boiled down" to the various media types, CD, DVD, live performance backup, or whatever ...
Those independant artists like Dylan and Young and others may have complete control over the quality of the audio and video masters, but little else. Even if this results in depressed sales of CDs, as it seems to be doing, the sales of live performances and TV is still quite strong and thus the devil will still extract his due.
In North America and to a much lesser extent in Europe, audio CD quality is secondary to the publishers and producers whims. Recently EMI opened the door to much higher quality digital recordings by allowing their European covers to be purchased on Apple's iTunes. It should be noted that almost immediately, the hottest sales were generated by 24bit/48k and 24bit/96k audio than the 16bit "CD quality" tracks ...
It is up to those of us who know the differences and appreciate the better quality releases to demand such.
This is a perfect opportunity for the DIY community to kick the old CD habit and get with the better quality stuff, even if it means ripping off vinyl and transfering it to 24 bit DVD-A ... ala Deadhead distribution ...
Listened to K2s tonight
and have to say they are the real deal.
Winston Ma of First Impression Music gave a demo of the K2 CD format this evening at the Pacific Northwest Audio Society. I'm quite impressed, as Mr. Ma was kind enough to share some cuts from his latest recordings. JVC once again honored FIM by allowing them to release the first CDs using the K2 format (FIM was also the first to be allowed to release the XRCD and XRCD 24 formats as well, I believe).
There's even more on this, but it's proprietary information AFAIK, so I'll just leave it as is.
DVD-A and SACD are, IMHO, obsolete as of this evening.
Of course, you'll need to listen to these for yourself and not take my word for it, but I think you'll like what you hear.
Best Regards,
TerryO
and have to say they are the real deal.
Winston Ma of First Impression Music gave a demo of the K2 CD format this evening at the Pacific Northwest Audio Society. I'm quite impressed, as Mr. Ma was kind enough to share some cuts from his latest recordings. JVC once again honored FIM by allowing them to release the first CDs using the K2 format (FIM was also the first to be allowed to release the XRCD and XRCD 24 formats as well, I believe).
There's even more on this, but it's proprietary information AFAIK, so I'll just leave it as is.
DVD-A and SACD are, IMHO, obsolete as of this evening.
Of course, you'll need to listen to these for yourself and not take my word for it, but I think you'll like what you hear.
Best Regards,
TerryO
https://www.elusivedisc.com/products.asp?dept=859 ... claims to be "the home of XRCD: ... but I can't tell if these need another player mechanism or not.
If any of these scenarios requires a new player mechanism, then I can't see the point.
If any of these scenarios fail to reproduce 24 bit / 48K or better resolution, then I can't see the point.
I mean, what are us consumers supposed to do, scrap our DVD video players or our SACD players just so the techies can experiment with "another "new" CD format" or lesser quality and bandwidth than we already get from DVD-A or SACD?
If any of these scenarios requires a new player mechanism, then I can't see the point.
If any of these scenarios fail to reproduce 24 bit / 48K or better resolution, then I can't see the point.
I mean, what are us consumers supposed to do, scrap our DVD video players or our SACD players just so the techies can experiment with "another "new" CD format" or lesser quality and bandwidth than we already get from DVD-A or SACD?
FastEddy said:https://www.elusivedisc.com/products.asp?dept=859 ... claims to be "the home of XRCD: ... but I can't tell if these need another player mechanism or not.
If any of these scenarios requires a new player mechanism, then I can't see the point.
If any of these scenarios fail to reproduce 24 bit / 48K or better resolution, then I can't see the point.
I mean, what are us consumers supposed to do, scrap our DVD video players or our SACD players just so the techies can experiment with "another "new" CD format" or lesser quality and bandwidth than we already get from DVD-A or SACD?
I'm hardly an expert on digital recording, but I've been able to play all my XRCD and XRCD 24 discs on my ordinary CD player.
You mention that if you don't see 24 bit / 48K then what's the point?
I believe that 16 bit can sound very good *IF* all 16 bits are used, which seems has been a common problem with CDs all along. There has existed a gap between the potential and the actual, and substituting a poorly executed 24 bit as a replacement for a poorly executed 16 bit is, I suppose, an improvement of sorts.
Finally, with the exception of SACD, all of these formats will play on your DVD player, so you really aren't in a different position than you were before. Many have given up on expensive "Audiophile" players and just purchase a good, but inexpensive DVD player that contains the latest chipset and are content with that until 6 months or so go by and another even more advanced chipset becomes available. I suppose this satisfies the "upgraditis" that many suffer from, while being quite a bit cheaper than purchasing a costly player that, with the rapid advances in technology, will become hopelessly "obsolete" within a year or so.
As for K2, Winston Ma of FIM has already earmarked a number of selections from his catalog that will be released in the new format. At the Demo last Thursday, he played some of his releases in XRCD and then in K2 format in order that we could evaluate the differences and/or improvements. The contrast, which everyone agreed was not subtle (Audiophile Speak: Subtle=minisqule or nonexistent) and was an improvement in resolution and tonal balance.
I'm not suggesting that anyone sell their LP collection yet, but the differences are getting narrower, and it may be that in the future that the vaunted "superiority" of digital may actually be realized.
K2 is, IMHO, an advance in sound and another step in that direction.
Best Regards,
TerryO
" ... I've been able to play all my XRCD and XRCD 24 discs on my ordinary CD player. ..."
That's good, but do you get the full 24bits through the standard CD player? ... I don't see how that is possible from a 16bit player.
There is a difference and if you heard a side by side comparison, you would agree. 24bit recordings are superior and that is the opinion of many if not most professional musicians.
That's good, but do you get the full 24bits through the standard CD player? ... I don't see how that is possible from a 16bit player.
There is a difference and if you heard a side by side comparison, you would agree. 24bit recordings are superior and that is the opinion of many if not most professional musicians.
24 bit to 16 bit
"There is a difference and if you heard a side by side comparison, you would agree. 24bit recordings are superior"
Spot on, Fast Eddy. They are just fiddling around the edges with an outdated and inadequate format. Sony had their SBM (Siurface Bit Mapping" and other companies their higher bit rate originals.
At the end of the day, it is still 44.1KHZ 16bit, albeit a more accurate 16 bit than perhaps JVC has used previously. Genuine 48KHZ 24bits, SACD and DVD-A from decent master recordings will always be markedly superior audibly.
SandyK
"There is a difference and if you heard a side by side comparison, you would agree. 24bit recordings are superior"
Spot on, Fast Eddy. They are just fiddling around the edges with an outdated and inadequate format. Sony had their SBM (Siurface Bit Mapping" and other companies their higher bit rate originals.
At the end of the day, it is still 44.1KHZ 16bit, albeit a more accurate 16 bit than perhaps JVC has used previously. Genuine 48KHZ 24bits, SACD and DVD-A from decent master recordings will always be markedly superior audibly.
SandyK
Play these on your DVD player connected to your stereo, hopefully with a good 24 bit DAC in the circuit.
16bit CD = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-Muddy-Waters/dp/B00000JNOJ/
24 bit DVD-A = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-Muddy-Waters/dp/B0007YXQQO/
... and you too will become a believer
16bit CD = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-Muddy-Waters/dp/B00000JNOJ/
24 bit DVD-A = http://www.amazon.com/Folk-Singer-Muddy-Waters/dp/B0007YXQQO/
... and you too will become a believer
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