Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Looking around, in a ten year old thread called "Plans for TL Cambridge R50s/HiFi Answers version" I stumbled across the following:
Dave, would you mind elaborating on "small extended full-ranges" four years after you wrote that? I would still like to go for a B139 in a TL but with a single mid-range / HF driver ideally in the same cabinet or if that is not possible, in a separate small cabinet. Does this make any sense at all or am I now on an even dafter track - if so, sorry.
I might even be able to recoup some of the cost by selling on the B110s & T27s to someone interested in making a LS3/5a
Looking around, in a ten year old thread called "Plans for TL Cambridge R50s/HiFi Answers version" I stumbled across the following:
The more I read and learn, the more I am tempted to change course. I hadn't really thought hard enough about bi-amping. I happen to have two Quad 303s so that could perhaps be a possibility.
Dave, would you mind elaborating on "small extended full-ranges" four years after you wrote that? I would still like to go for a B139 in a TL but with a single mid-range / HF driver ideally in the same cabinet or if that is not possible, in a separate small cabinet. Does this make any sense at all or am I now on an even dafter track - if so, sorry.
I might even be able to recoup some of the cost by selling on the B110s & T27s to someone interested in making a LS3/5a
It is even more valid today as the best FRs get better, We have done a number of FASTs since then and they continue to prove to be a very good solution -- the ones i am now listening to are amougst the very best i have heard, A number of these are TLs.
Mark Audio Alpair 7.x, Alpair 6.2, Fostex FF85wk, FF105wk are standouts for this kind of application,even better if you get tarted up pairs. They would need a separate enclosure or subenclosure.
We have even directly compared A6.2p on a similar size box to a refurbished set of LS3/5A. No contest. LS3/5A lost.
When i next run into a set of IMFs (or similar), i plan to do exactly this, IMF TLS 80s for instance have a 4" cardboard tube runnng to the back of the box for the B110. It could be used as is, or the back of it could be routed out to make it a 1/4 wave midTL, and any of the above retrofitted. With the TLS80 having a bafflestep near 200 Hz, the larger drivers would likely work better.
Due to the broad overlaps,one can often get away with a PLLXO which has close to no cost.
The Quad 303 used to be a favorite, i've owed at least a dozen (including these). The last one i had got directly compared to an Audio Sector gainclone and did not fair so well ... ie there are a number of fairly inexpensive modern amps that perform much better,
dave
The Quad 303 is a good amp and for active use - where the amplifier is directly connected to the drive unit and isn't required to cope with punishing impedance dips - it will work perfectly fine, even today. Same applies if running it into a fullrange system with no crossover.
As you have a complete set of KEF drivers, if planning to sell them it may be better to sell them as a set. They may have more value that way. It would be worth trying one of the more retro forums such as Lencoheaven before eBay.
Modern full range units are very good. The Jordan Eikona and VTL cabinet I mentioned earlier can reach 30Hz. Like any fullrange, they won't have the power handling at that frequency that larger drivers will have. Though the original Robert Fris Daline (HiFi News) used a similar enclosure for the KEF 110/27 to reach those frequencies and was a standalone speaker. Another option you could investigate (you probably don't want to hear that )
http://www.tech-diy.com/Loudspeakers/Daline/Daline.pdf
A modern incarnation from Dick Olsher
Tip_80
The VTL and Daline are very easy to build compared to a traditional TL.
As you have a complete set of KEF drivers, if planning to sell them it may be better to sell them as a set. They may have more value that way. It would be worth trying one of the more retro forums such as Lencoheaven before eBay.
Modern full range units are very good. The Jordan Eikona and VTL cabinet I mentioned earlier can reach 30Hz. Like any fullrange, they won't have the power handling at that frequency that larger drivers will have. Though the original Robert Fris Daline (HiFi News) used a similar enclosure for the KEF 110/27 to reach those frequencies and was a standalone speaker. Another option you could investigate (you probably don't want to hear that
)http://www.tech-diy.com/Loudspeakers/Daline/Daline.pdf
A modern incarnation from Dick Olsher
Tip_80
The VTL and Daline are very easy to build compared to a traditional TL.
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Absolutely no problem Colin and many thanks for your input which is variously inspirational, educational, confusing, time-consuming and depressing at different times. The same goes for the posts by planet10, sreten, Scottmoose and many others I will have overlooked - I am grateful for it all
I have wandered into this territory from time to time over the past five years at least and have on various occasions looked at commercial alternatives to my four foot high KefKit 3s. The alternatives, even quite expensive examples, have never sounded quite as satisfying and this is the reason I have been looking at TL designs. I am increasingly minded to follow the advice offered by you and others (i.e. mostly planet10 and sreten) to consider retiring my Kef drivers and going for full range units in simpler cabinets.
The quest continues - is it better to travel hopefully than to arrive . . . and perhaps be disappointed?
I have wandered into this territory from time to time over the past five years at least and have on various occasions looked at commercial alternatives to my four foot high KefKit 3s. The alternatives, even quite expensive examples, have never sounded quite as satisfying and this is the reason I have been looking at TL designs. I am increasingly minded to follow the advice offered by you and others (i.e. mostly planet10 and sreten) to consider retiring my Kef drivers and going for full range units in simpler cabinets.
The quest continues - is it better to travel hopefully than to arrive . . . and perhaps be disappointed?
Your KEF transmission line project looks like an attractive one for someone that lusted after that type of speaker in the 70s. However, speaker drivers and DIY transmission line designs have improved a bit in 40 years and so you can do better today although not necessarily a lot better. You do not say what state your drivers are in but selling them as set to an enthusiast and buying modern drivers looks to be an option.
I would strongly recommend listening to single driver speakers before committing to using them. They have obvious sound quality deficiencies compared to competent multi driver speakers and their benefits are not heard by all if not most. In the 70s a high fidelity speaker was a 12" + 5" + 1" monitor whereas today it is more likely to be 2 x 8" + 5" + 1" in a narrow tower. The laws of physics haven't changed.
Lust? Lust? What are you suggesting sir?
Probably not 100% off the mark although I guess I actually started thinking (lusting) after them in the 21st century and I am under some pressure to get something a wee bit smaller than any of the speakers I currently have.
Easier said than done although a few years ago I did manage to borrow some much smaller, supposedly high quality second hand speakers - and was not impressed - I can't remember what they were.
My next door neighbour has a system based on a valve amp and linear tracking turntable, he uses some supposedly wonderful Acoustic Energy speakers mounted on incredibly heavy pedestals. I very much doubt that he would agree to my borrowing them for a few days but I can always ask.
And visa-versa. And a 2-way FAST brings the benefits of a 2-way with fewer of the deficits.
dave
Big topic but there are pros and cons both ways. I have a very good commercial active 2-way speaker as a reference for my single-driver excursions. The active has a 6.5" bass so a little larger than the Eikona I'm using. So…
The 2-way has greater headroom … In fact, being active with a 250w amp on the bass driver, it's exceptionally good. (Headroom is one of those attributes which makes all else seems a little toy-like.)
The single-driver has better imaging and loses very little at the frequency extremes, if at all. As Dave says, use it the main driver from 100 or 200Hz up and you gain the benefits of both, with a separate bass driver taking over the heavy work.
Meridian and a few others do exactly this in their commercial offerings.
The 2-way has greater headroom … In fact, being active with a 250w amp on the bass driver, it's exceptionally good. (Headroom is one of those attributes which makes all else seems a little toy-like.)
The single-driver has better imaging and loses very little at the frequency extremes, if at all. As Dave says, use it the main driver from 100 or 200Hz up and you gain the benefits of both, with a separate bass driver taking over the heavy work.
Meridian and a few others do exactly this in their commercial offerings.
I am now even more confused:
Incidentally, this thread has got me wondering about crossovers and bi-amping and as a result, in order to avoid further derailing my own thread I have started a thread in the hope that I can gain some understanding (LINK). I would be most grateful if some of the very knowledgeable people who have posted here could give me some help there.
In another thread last year on the Jordan Eikona VTL, a poster says:
It rather sounds as if the "Full range" Jordan Eikona VTL might benefit from a tweeter and a bass driver which kinda gets me back to where I started - comments?
Incidentally, this thread has got me wondering about crossovers and bi-amping and as a result, in order to avoid further derailing my own thread I have started a thread in the hope that I can gain some understanding (LINK). I would be most grateful if some of the very knowledgeable people who have posted here could give me some help there.
The Eikona doesn't need a helper tweeter but it doesn't stop some folk from adding them anyway. After all, some folk think it's worth adding a helper tweeter to the KEF T27 whereas others don't.
The Jordan Eikona driver is specifically designed to cover the full range without additional drive units. I use it on its own and its treble response matches the two-way active I'm also using.
That said, there are laws of physics involved. The cone of the Eikona is 100mm diameter (similar to your B110) so there is a trade-off between bass extension and ultimate volume. If you want loud bass, you need to move a lot of air so that comes down to a bigger driver or you need to couple a smaller driver to something like a horn to achieve the same effect.
A reflex or TL cabinet gets you some of the way there - think of the area of the port as increasing the effective area of the cone.
As Dave mentioned, one of the most elegant ways to achieve headroom (ability to cover loud peaks in music, such as an orchestral crescendo) is to use a fullrange unit with a bass (or a sub-woofer). Whether you go this route depends on type of music you listen to (chamber or acoustic guitar music doesn't need it), usual volume level and size of room.
Hope that helps to make things less confusing. People are often polarised into multi-way speaker enthusiasts and single-driver enthusiasts. There's no particular need for that as there's a lot to learn from both approaches. These days, I prefer the term 'wideband speaker' as that more accurately describes what the Eikona and similar drivers do.
The Jordan Eikona driver is specifically designed to cover the full range without additional drive units. I use it on its own and its treble response matches the two-way active I'm also using.
That said, there are laws of physics involved. The cone of the Eikona is 100mm diameter (similar to your B110) so there is a trade-off between bass extension and ultimate volume. If you want loud bass, you need to move a lot of air so that comes down to a bigger driver or you need to couple a smaller driver to something like a horn to achieve the same effect.
A reflex or TL cabinet gets you some of the way there - think of the area of the port as increasing the effective area of the cone.
As Dave mentioned, one of the most elegant ways to achieve headroom (ability to cover loud peaks in music, such as an orchestral crescendo) is to use a fullrange unit with a bass (or a sub-woofer). Whether you go this route depends on type of music you listen to (chamber or acoustic guitar music doesn't need it), usual volume level and size of room.
Hope that helps to make things less confusing. People are often polarised into multi-way speaker enthusiasts and single-driver enthusiasts. There's no particular need for that as there's a lot to learn from both approaches. These days, I prefer the term 'wideband speaker' as that more accurately describes what the Eikona and similar drivers do.
No you are still worse off because a single driver needs to be designed to make an attempt at bass and treble and hence is not optimised to be a midrange driver. Typically they are inefficient, low power handling and with a motor and suspension that is not optimised for high accuracy over the short displacement of a midrange driver but to do something reasonable over a longer stroke in order to have some sort of output at bass frequencies.
It's worth noting that 'full range' driver covers a huge spread, from the high efficiencey, low power handling variety (Lowther and some Fostex) to larger units optimised to handle more power. They vary in size from 50mm to 300mm.
More than any other type of driver a 'full-range' needs to be carefully optimised to perform at its best, which means there may be trade-offs at some point in one or more parameters. The Jordan Eikona - and a few others - represent a careful balance of performance. Accuracy is one of the aims and many full-range drivers are very good at midrange.
By the same token, a mid-range driver could be classed as a deliberately crippled full-range
As an example, the Carl Pinfold Musician design from the 1990s specifically began as a mid-range unit and then was optimised for full-range use.
More than any other type of driver a 'full-range' needs to be carefully optimised to perform at its best, which means there may be trade-offs at some point in one or more parameters. The Jordan Eikona - and a few others - represent a careful balance of performance. Accuracy is one of the aims and many full-range drivers are very good at midrange.
By the same token, a mid-range driver could be classed as a deliberately crippled full-range
As an example, the Carl Pinfold Musician design from the 1990s specifically began as a mid-range unit and then was optimised for full-range use.
The £186 Jordan unit is a good example. This money with change would get the OP a good midwoofer, tweeter plus crossover components that will outperform the Jordan in pretty much every relevant performance parameter. It is also about enough for a modern equivalent of his KEFKit 3 in terms of tweeter, midrange and woofer drivers but without crossover components.
In another recent thread someone was suggesting a $10 3" Tymphany single driver which makes a lot more sense to me so long as one is realistic about the sound quality. But I doubt the OP is after this type of speaker having started a thread about a large 4 way transmission line and having got used to listening to a conventional 3 way.
As I've said elsewhere, I'm using an active two-way. It costs £1200+ currently. It contains some pretty high powered amplifiers but the Eikona plus a modest 70 wpc amplifier comes close in everything but headroom. In certain respects - notably imaging - it does better, as you'd expect from a point source. I'm not trying to sell the OP on the idea of an Eikona or any other full-range, but it came up in the discussion if he wanted to keep his B139 bass drivers.
But I agree, developing one speaker to do the job of two isn't easy or cheap. I doubt a $10 driver would manage it.
But I agree, developing one speaker to do the job of two isn't easy or cheap. I doubt a $10 driver would manage it.
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Except that you are not taking into consideration an XO in a less than optimal place and that you won't get the tweeter within a 1/4 wl C-C of the midbass. That subtraction in performance, no matter how good the XO is what a FR doesn't have.
It comes down to what a person values. One is not necessarily better then the other, they are just different.
As well onecould consider the Alpair 10 (either one) from one of Ted's apprentises, which is a direct cometitor to the Eikona (i haven't heard the Eikona, but they certainly outperform the JX92 by a long ways). In North America they are $220/pr (new UK distrib coming soon), so i've just slashed your budget.
dave
Hi,
I've suggested 3 different well documented modern 3 way designs
that that should offer more than a pair of KEFkit3's, and FWIW
TL bass loading in new cabinets, another tweeter and new
crossovers won't change things much at considerable expense.
FR's and FAST's are best got into via the budget route, if
you don't like budget ones, you won't like expensive ones.
Generally a bit hit and miss, generally poor documentation.
Generally a lot more claims than simple objective evidence.
rgds, sreten.
I've suggested 3 different well documented modern 3 way designs
that that should offer more than a pair of KEFkit3's, and FWIW
TL bass loading in new cabinets, another tweeter and new
crossovers won't change things much at considerable expense.
FR's and FAST's are best got into via the budget route, if
you don't like budget ones, you won't like expensive ones.
Generally a bit hit and miss, generally poor documentation.
Generally a lot more claims than simple objective evidence.
rgds, sreten.
Simple objective evidence (pretty much all that can be generated with current tech) only glosses over the top of the set of capabilities that define a speaker's performance, so is of only 1st order improtance.
dave
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