Why in the world do you never hear of high density particle board being mentioned for speakers -- but always MDF?
Cabinet makers wouldn't dream of using MDF.
HDF is much heavier, machines much better. It's also called "cabinet grade".
Is there something (other than weight) that deters it from being used?
(or even mentioned?).
Cabinet makers wouldn't dream of using MDF.
HDF is much heavier, machines much better. It's also called "cabinet grade".
Is there something (other than weight) that deters it from being used?
(or even mentioned?).
I think MDF became popular with the big manufacturers due to improved sound as a result of different damping characteristics compared to the other boards that were available at the time.
We had lamin board and block board, plywood, particle board, hardboard (<6.3mm as far as I recall) and a few others.
note that "heavier" and "machines better" and "cabinet grade" do not have any "sound quality" attributes.
We had lamin board and block board, plywood, particle board, hardboard (<6.3mm as far as I recall) and a few others.
note that "heavier" and "machines better" and "cabinet grade" do not have any "sound quality" attributes.
Mmm, here in the Netherlands, you can find HDF, except it is also called MFD. I found that there is a lot of 'difference' in MDF at local diy-woodshop. I found one that has the HDF grade and sells it under the name of MDF....
And indeed, MDF is a real problem with a router, HDF is just a lot easier; so less faults in the wood while cutting at high speed.
And indeed, MDF is a real problem with a router, HDF is just a lot easier; so less faults in the wood while cutting at high speed.
HDF is really just a dense grade of MDF which has a large range of quality. Around here the HDF we have is called medite. I used to use it exclusively... when Chris & i hooked up & he started building our cabinets we used some MDF (it was free), but have since switched almost exclusively to baltic birch plywood (and occassionally bamboo plywood), as we found MDF not a very good material to build speakers from from a sonic quality point of view.
dave
dave
I make furniture for a living and also build custom loudspeaker enclosures.
I have inquired about HDF in NY state a few times (commercial suppliers).
There's no such thing in panel goods on East Coast. I can get about 20 if not more different types of MDF but as a product HDF does not exist over here.
There are panel goodies that weight significantly more then MDF if you have a good friend who is a chiropractor. Exterior grade and Fire rated MDF or Medex and Medite come to mind. Both terrible for veneering.
From my own personal experience, Ranger board MDF is a preferred material.
It's heavier then regular MDF and takes the veneer very nicely. It is also much easier to finish if you have exposed or profiled edge.
I recently had a delivery of another MDF alike product that was a bit greenish in color. It said MDF on the receipt but was heavier and denser.
Oh, cabinet makers use MDF all the time. It deppends for what purpous though. With the quality of plywood getting worse every day, MDF is the next best thing. There are varieties and hybrids as well. FX plywood/MDF sandwich.
I have inquired about HDF in NY state a few times (commercial suppliers).
There's no such thing in panel goods on East Coast. I can get about 20 if not more different types of MDF but as a product HDF does not exist over here.
There are panel goodies that weight significantly more then MDF if you have a good friend who is a chiropractor. Exterior grade and Fire rated MDF or Medex and Medite come to mind. Both terrible for veneering.
From my own personal experience, Ranger board MDF is a preferred material.
It's heavier then regular MDF and takes the veneer very nicely. It is also much easier to finish if you have exposed or profiled edge.
I recently had a delivery of another MDF alike product that was a bit greenish in color. It said MDF on the receipt but was heavier and denser.
Oh, cabinet makers use MDF all the time. It deppends for what purpous though. With the quality of plywood getting worse every day, MDF is the next best thing. There are varieties and hybrids as well. FX plywood/MDF sandwich.
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As has been mentioned, more dense doesn't necessarily mean sonically better.
More mass = more energy damping, but more dense = more efficient transfer of energy.
I would imagine that the higher density would result in a higher frequency, higher Q resonance than regular MDF. The higher Q would result in a resonance that is proportionately harder to dampen.
Of course, there are many variables to consider. If you're building a subwoofer box, the higher density means transfer of low frequencies into the open air, and the resulting higher frequency resonances would be more easily outside the range of the sub.
Same with woofers, through cabinet bracing if you could get the cabinet modes outside the crossed frequency of your woofer, you should be good. It should take less bracing to do this for the same amount of MDF.
So... the conclusion that I have come to purely by speculation, is that HDF is actually worse, UNLESS you can make sure to get any applicable resonances OUTside the range of your woofer by way of bracing or.. whatever.
Of course, it would take research to figure out where those resonances are
More mass = more energy damping, but more dense = more efficient transfer of energy.
I would imagine that the higher density would result in a higher frequency, higher Q resonance than regular MDF. The higher Q would result in a resonance that is proportionately harder to dampen.
Of course, there are many variables to consider. If you're building a subwoofer box, the higher density means transfer of low frequencies into the open air, and the resulting higher frequency resonances would be more easily outside the range of the sub.
Same with woofers, through cabinet bracing if you could get the cabinet modes outside the crossed frequency of your woofer, you should be good. It should take less bracing to do this for the same amount of MDF.
So... the conclusion that I have come to purely by speculation, is that HDF is actually worse, UNLESS you can make sure to get any applicable resonances OUTside the range of your woofer by way of bracing or.. whatever.
Of course, it would take research to figure out where those resonances are
Stiffness plays into the equation as well as density/mass. One has to look at the whole equation.
And damping a high Q, high frequency resonance is not something that is necessarily effective. I actually design my boxes to try to push inevitable resonances higher in frequency and higher in Q.
It has been shown that higher Q resonances are less audible, and harder to excite (if you don't excite a resonance it is as if it does not exist). The higher in frequency the resonance is the less energy that is available to excite it.
Trying to damp a high Q, high frequency resonance lowers its Q, and tends to to lower its frequency, thus making it more likely to be an audible problem.
dave
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