ha no flames please, i have always suspected the answer is best understood not using physics as generally propagated today.
Consider 'electron ballistics', in the so called 'solid state' perhaps the behavior is different from tubes.
i am saying there may be much more to the question besides tube/ss.
Consider 'electron ballistics', in the so called 'solid state' perhaps the behavior is different from tubes.
i am saying there may be much more to the question besides tube/ss.
What was i thinking ! Never knew toobs where more musical than SS amplfiers, i guess i should investigate ...
Be sure to relate your findings here (on this thread) so all of us are in "The Loop!"
Best Regards,
Terry
I'll add my feedback to the loop...
Tubes have won for me, so far. I've built a bunch of tube amps, and compared to any commercial SS offerings I've used (nothing fancy, just standard 80's-00's best buy type store amps) the tubes win by a very large margin.
since then I've built several Pass amps, and still, I think the tubes win. It's similar to what others have said.... I can listen to the tube amp forever and never get sick of it... I can listen to the same music via my SS amps, and after a few hours I get this nagging feeling that I should turn it off.
Via a quick A/B test, they are very close to being the same... Subtle differences that I'd have to use audiophool terms to describe.. (ss being dymamic or punchy, and tubes being smooth) or just do the usual distortion blame game... the major 2nd harmonic of tubes is pleasing, but the lack of 2nd order and minor levels of higher order distortion of SS eventually gets tiring.
Edit, to mention, I have both PP and single ended in both SS and tube amps. There's probably more difference between PP and SE, than there is between tube and SS.
Tubes have won for me, so far. I've built a bunch of tube amps, and compared to any commercial SS offerings I've used (nothing fancy, just standard 80's-00's best buy type store amps) the tubes win by a very large margin.
since then I've built several Pass amps, and still, I think the tubes win. It's similar to what others have said.... I can listen to the tube amp forever and never get sick of it... I can listen to the same music via my SS amps, and after a few hours I get this nagging feeling that I should turn it off.
Via a quick A/B test, they are very close to being the same... Subtle differences that I'd have to use audiophool terms to describe.. (ss being dymamic or punchy, and tubes being smooth) or just do the usual distortion blame game... the major 2nd harmonic of tubes is pleasing, but the lack of 2nd order and minor levels of higher order distortion of SS eventually gets tiring.
Edit, to mention, I have both PP and single ended in both SS and tube amps. There's probably more difference between PP and SE, than there is between tube and SS.
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I went the other way. I had good SS and said "what is the tube stuff all about?" So I listened to some, got me some, built me some. I realized, it was about low power and very high distortion, so I dumped it all and now happily remain in the SS camp.
Tubes are best left in the Fender amp where they belong as part of the instrument, not in the reproduction chain. To each their own. We should all be happy we have the choice.
Tubes are best left in the Fender amp where they belong as part of the instrument, not in the reproduction chain. To each their own. We should all be happy we have the choice.
Then you were doing something wrong... You've got to have the correct speakers for the amp and your room. For my low power amps I have 98db/w full range speakers. In my relatively small room w/ hardwood floors and not a lot of soft furniture, it is very loud and low distortion.
In another room I have a 100 watt tube amp and bigger, more standard 2 way speakers. That also gets very loud and even lower distortion... Down around .008%.
I'm sure it's been said 1000x but for well designed amps, there should be very little difference between SS and tube and se and pp, etc. Just subtle differences that make it fun to use different ones at different times. I wouldn't really call it a choice.. I choose both! (but tube is my fav
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Yes, that's right!
Just like Nelson Pass and his First Watt SS amps that he attempts to get better, fuller, more Tube-like sound out of.
To me, this is the core of the difference between tubes and SS, leaving less significant things aside such as transconductance and the presence or absence of filaments. Once an electron is accelerated from the cathode, there's basically nothing interfering with its ability to reach the screen or plate other than electric fields.
Now look at the silicon used in virtually all solid state equipment - it has a dielectric constant of 11.9, significantly worse than that of any other dielectric considered suitable for high quality audio use. This leads to a myriad of non-linear effects such as increased transition time, charge storage effects, increases in higher order distortion etc., many of which are distinctly audible, that simply don't exist with vacuum tubes.
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I think you're not visualizing what happens in a semiconductor device correctly. For example, what does "dielectric constant" mean in the context of doped silicon, which is not a dielectric? What is the role of scale and geometry? Why are the quietest, highest bandwidth, and lowest distortion amplification systems made from solid state devices? If there is intrinsic performance superiority to tubes, why are they not used in mission-critical applications where cost and size are not primary considerations?
Then you were doing something wrong... You've got to have the correct speakers for the amp and your room. For my low power amps I have 98db/w full range speakers. In my relatively small room w/ hardwood floors and not a lot of soft furniture, it is very loud and low distortion.
In another room I have a 100 watt tube amp and bigger, more standard 2 way speakers. That also gets very loud and even lower distortion... Down around .008%.
I'm sure it's been said 1000x but for well designed amps, there should be very little difference between SS and tube and se and pp, etc. Just subtle differences that make it fun to use different ones at different times. I wouldn't really call it a choice.. I choose both! (but tube is my fav
We will just have to disagree. That is fine. I am not saying you are wrong or I am correct. I only said I did try tubes (Knight, HK, Cary, Meng, DIY in my home; Dyna and CJ in friends houses, Carver, VTL, Mac, Lux, and AR in stores) I far prefer SS for the reasons stated. Can I find a SS amp worse than the tubes I tried? Yup. But I can find many SS I prefer over ANY tube amp.
You may like glass for the very same reasons I don't like them. Planet10 loves tubes, but he also loves his full range drivers which I also tried and could not stand. They have no top end so the distortion may be masked somewhat and no bottom end so the lack of power is not as significant. That does not make any of us right or wrong. Just free to enjoy what we wish.
Semiconductor doping is generally limited to less than one dopant atom or molecule to 10,000 silicon atoms (except for degenerative doping which is outside the range of this discussion). This is not enough to significantly transform silicon's intrinsic dielectric constant. And, of course, a semiconductor that is fully off vs on doesn't discard its dielectric properties at any time, although they may well change across its conduction band, adding yet another nonlinearity that tubes do not suffer from.
Low thermal noise in amplifying devices is generally specified through selecting devices having increased transconductance, or, using massive feedback (shudder) which is one reason I mentioned it up front as being secondary to sound quality. this is something that bipolar transistors do very well, but a noise figure difference of perhaps 2dB does not constitute a pass/fail parameter in any high quality audio system of decent design.
Low thermal noise in amplifying devices is generally specified through selecting devices having increased transconductance, or, using massive feedback (shudder) which is one reason I mentioned it up front as being secondary to sound quality. this is something that bipolar transistors do very well, but a noise figure difference of perhaps 2dB does not constitute a pass/fail parameter in any high quality audio system of decent design.
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Wow. You are attacking the basic linearity of solid state. Have you done your load lines lately for tubes? Have you heard of negative feedback?
Does a tube amp have fewer high order harmonics than SS? Maybe because of that big honking transformer! OOPS, it produces just as much by itself.
Each technology has it's strong points and it's weak points. I think you picked the wrong ones to bring up. Tubes do survive an EMP from a thermonuclear explosion better. Not as susceptible as MOSFETS to ESD and handling problems. A bit more rugged when things go wrong.
Question: What would a tube amp built with the same level of topology complexity and available current as a decent SS amp sound like? Pick something like an A21 maybe. Enough gain to have some decent feedback. Maybe OTL. Fully feedback controlled heaters and the works. It would cost as much as a house, but maybe be that one step better.
Since doping renders it semiconductive, yes, it does make the insulating form's dielectric constant irrelevant. Your argument gets even worse from there.
Since I never said anything like that (just pointed out your fundamental error), don't expect me to defend it.
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