I have found that stored energy tends to be released, and will tend to resonate for a very short period of time if you do an MLS test and look at the impulse. What you hear from this is in fact more shimmer of cymbals if it's ringing is around the frequency of 20KHz~25KHz. Since my experence is in speaker driver shorting rings, I am wondering whether anyone is actually doing any measurements before and after.
My first impression would be that if the system originally is a bit lacking in detail by design, this method will improve the situation. But if the system was already pretty revealing, fast, and clean high frequencies, then this method of energy storage will make the sound unnatural.
My first impression would be that if the system originally is a bit lacking in detail by design, this method will improve the situation. But if the system was already pretty revealing, fast, and clean high frequencies, then this method of energy storage will make the sound unnatural.
For the record, I finally took Rob's advice and replaced the my prototype loops made of 20 turns of 28 ga. I couldn't find 40 ga, but found 34 ga magnet wire available in my local store. I made 5" loops of 140 turns.Robert F said:
Absolutely has taken another jump forward . This is a tweak that is just too simple, too cheap and too effective to pass up.
I think the listening impressions have been well recorded in earlier posts. I find a new level of detail, in a very relaxed and almost quiet way. Another layer of hash has been stripped away. I actually can enjoy the music now with the volume turned down to its lowest level.
thanks Rob and Bud
wlowes
I have to ask. Are you also applying small pieces of shrink wrap tubing along the length of wire hank? If so, then experiment with slitting this plastic after shrunk. If you have three pieces, fully slit two down their length, and then start with small slits on the ends of the third piece, making them longer over a period of time. May surprise you as much as the wire loops do.
Bud
I have to ask. Are you also applying small pieces of shrink wrap tubing along the length of wire hank? If so, then experiment with slitting this plastic after shrunk. If you have three pieces, fully slit two down their length, and then start with small slits on the ends of the third piece, making them longer over a period of time. May surprise you as much as the wire loops do.
Bud
Bud,
I do have shrink wrap. I put 3 pieces about 1/2 inch each on each of my 5 inch pig tales and shrunk it down. On the last 1/2 inch, the insulation is removed and the bundle is twisted and soldered.
I want to try this slit, but am a little confused. If I slit one of the shrink wraps along its length, won't it want to fall off? Do you mean that it should be slit and left in place loose?
Walter
I do have shrink wrap. I put 3 pieces about 1/2 inch each on each of my 5 inch pig tales and shrunk it down. On the last 1/2 inch, the insulation is removed and the bundle is twisted and soldered.
I want to try this slit, but am a little confused. If I slit one of the shrink wraps along its length, won't it want to fall off? Do you mean that it should be slit and left in place loose?
Walter
wlowes,
Slit them down their length please. If they are shrunk down tight and slit after shrinking, they wont fall off unless you handle them roughly. If they are not a tight fit then take masking tape or other paper based tape and make a thin strip and tape the piece together. This will eventually succumb to air and need to be replaced. Another possibility is the new adhesive coated shrink tubing, for the fully slit sectors. I use this for speaker cables and speaker pig tails, in cases where extra compensation does not time smear the signal.
Should you decide to put them in a sleeve, make sure it is 100% cotton. I use XXL shoe lace for all types of cables and it can be found in fashionable clothing stores for women, or I can send you some of mine.
Bud
Slit them down their length please. If they are shrunk down tight and slit after shrinking, they wont fall off unless you handle them roughly. If they are not a tight fit then take masking tape or other paper based tape and make a thin strip and tape the piece together. This will eventually succumb to air and need to be replaced. Another possibility is the new adhesive coated shrink tubing, for the fully slit sectors. I use this for speaker cables and speaker pig tails, in cases where extra compensation does not time smear the signal.
Should you decide to put them in a sleeve, make sure it is 100% cotton. I use XXL shoe lace for all types of cables and it can be found in fashionable clothing stores for women, or I can send you some of mine.
Bud
Bud,
Thanks for the clarification. I slitted the full length of 2 of the shink wrap on all of the loops. Sound is fantastic. Is it my imagination or did the sound stage open even wider and air around individual instruments. Sound was rich and tube like. I added the partial slits on the third piece of shrink wrap. I believe that some of tube like bloom disappeared and left a very clear transperant sound. These are just first impressions. How does this relate to what you expected?
At any rate the sound is great.
Walter
Thanks for the clarification. I slitted the full length of 2 of the shink wrap on all of the loops. Sound is fantastic. Is it my imagination or did the sound stage open even wider and air around individual instruments. Sound was rich and tube like. I added the partial slits on the third piece of shrink wrap. I believe that some of tube like bloom disappeared and left a very clear transperant sound. These are just first impressions. How does this relate to what you expected?
At any rate the sound is great.
Walter
wlowes,
You have it nailed, exactly, in the subjective arena. You might experiment with the overall length of unslit tubing vs slit tubing. You can get too much overall length of tube for a particular useage and also too much or too little of the unslit portion. This unslit portion will affect primarily dynamic information, over about 4 kHz.
Now, do you have a CD player with an extra set of RCA analogue out connectors available? If so, make up a suitable plug with one of these loops connected to just the ground side and plug it in. This will also surprise you.
Bud
You have it nailed, exactly, in the subjective arena. You might experiment with the overall length of unslit tubing vs slit tubing. You can get too much overall length of tube for a particular useage and also too much or too little of the unslit portion. This unslit portion will affect primarily dynamic information, over about 4 kHz.
Now, do you have a CD player with an extra set of RCA analogue out connectors available? If so, make up a suitable plug with one of these loops connected to just the ground side and plug it in. This will also surprise you.
Bud
More ground plane surprises
One more note for anyone who happens onto this thread. I made a change to the grounding in my amp that surprised me with another small improvement.
My amp is a Chip amp kit by Peter Daniel laid out much like his Patek. I followed his style of minimalism as everthing in the signal path has the ability to mess up the signal.
In my config, each channel has its chip mounted on a good sized plate of 1/2 inch copper plate for a heat sink. A star ground was grounded to earth ground via a 10R resitor. On a hunch, I removed the resistor and ran the ground line to both the copper plates and directly to earth ground. This had a similar effect to sound as the litz wire traps. Maybe not as impactful, but we must be at the limits of deminishing returns. Is the copper plate acting as a ground plane, or a source of more electrons? I don't know, I'm just enjoying the music!
One more note for anyone who happens onto this thread. I made a change to the grounding in my amp that surprised me with another small improvement.
My amp is a Chip amp kit by Peter Daniel laid out much like his Patek. I followed his style of minimalism as everthing in the signal path has the ability to mess up the signal.
In my config, each channel has its chip mounted on a good sized plate of 1/2 inch copper plate for a heat sink. A star ground was grounded to earth ground via a 10R resitor. On a hunch, I removed the resistor and ran the ground line to both the copper plates and directly to earth ground. This had a similar effect to sound as the litz wire traps. Maybe not as impactful, but we must be at the limits of deminishing returns. Is the copper plate acting as a ground plane, or a source of more electrons? I don't know, I'm just enjoying the music!
This is an except of a post made in the EnABL Listening impressions thread, but I wanted to put it here also.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Last night, I made up a single pigtail using 2 x 20cm lengths of some good quality but old (15-18 years) OFC jumbo speaker cable.
From memory there is somewhere around 270-300 strands in each length.
So I looped both lengths and soldered all four (4) ends together which would give me around somehwere between 500 - 600 loops.
Soldered a single length of 16 gauge magnet wire onto the end and wrapped a bit of tape over the soldered part.
I connected it to both left and right speaker ground outputs on my amp so that the pigtail was in the middle.
Result? Wider soundstage, more low level detail, transients seemed crisper! Another layer of spurious noise was removed!
Put on Heath Ledger film called 'A Knights Tale' at a low volume level (after 11pm at night, kids in bed etc.).
The background noise I could hear on the soundtrack at a low listening level - wind in the trees, birds, animals, people talking in the background...amazing!
I think I could even hear the sound of cars driving on a freeway (not sure though, could have been just the wind).
Looks like I need to go buy some Litz wire and shoelaces!
Thankyou Bud for another crazy idea that improves my audio system so much!
Cheers,
Alex
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Last night, I made up a single pigtail using 2 x 20cm lengths of some good quality but old (15-18 years) OFC jumbo speaker cable.
From memory there is somewhere around 270-300 strands in each length.
So I looped both lengths and soldered all four (4) ends together which would give me around somehwere between 500 - 600 loops.
Soldered a single length of 16 gauge magnet wire onto the end and wrapped a bit of tape over the soldered part.
I connected it to both left and right speaker ground outputs on my amp so that the pigtail was in the middle.
Result? Wider soundstage, more low level detail, transients seemed crisper! Another layer of spurious noise was removed!
Put on Heath Ledger film called 'A Knights Tale' at a low volume level (after 11pm at night, kids in bed etc.).
The background noise I could hear on the soundtrack at a low listening level - wind in the trees, birds, animals, people talking in the background...amazing!
I think I could even hear the sound of cars driving on a freeway (not sure though, could have been just the wind).
Looks like I need to go buy some Litz wire and shoelaces!
Thankyou Bud for another crazy idea that improves my audio system so much!
Cheers,
Alex
is some of these coils can be used in a speaker crossover and just out of the amp
I just came across this thread and knowing how easy it is for electron flow to be deviated from the path and potential energy stored or lost due to various materials and what precautions would be needed from outside stray electron flow and magnetic fields
I just came across this thread and knowing how easy it is for electron flow to be deviated from the path and potential energy stored or lost due to various materials and what precautions would be needed from outside stray electron flow and magnetic fields
This is very much above my head, but that hasn't stopped me from trying it out. I just made a 15cm loop made from 25 strands of fine enamelled copper wire (unknown gauge) salvaged from a choke. I placed 3x 9mm pieces of heatshink over this wire and joined the ends in a loop. I connected this to the ground plane of my CD player close to the output jacks.
I realise this won't be the best use due to there already being a ground plane.
Any difference? I could easily be imagining it but I find the sound a little more cohesive, less messy, particularly in the treble region and in the quieter passages.
Simon
I realise this won't be the best use due to there already being a ground plane.
Any difference? I could easily be imagining it but I find the sound a little more cohesive, less messy, particularly in the treble region and in the quieter passages.
Simon
mcmahon48,
Does not appear to need shielding of any kind. This is an antenna loop, but it is connected to ground, so any active signal intrusion is going to either die right in the loop, which is at a potential lower than local ground, or go off looking for an even lower ground potential.
Simonty,
You are describing the same benefit I find when these things are applied to the ground bus of commercial CD's. The only other sort of ground that provides this is a true poured ground plane, instrumentation grade preferred. I have yet to find a commercial CD player that has anymore than traces for ground connection, with no actual ground plane, other than the case the PCB is installed in. While this is adequate for shielding, it is not apparently good enough for circuit mirror, ground plane activities.
Next try some loops on your speaker's ground side connector and on your amplifier's speaker ground connector too. The cumulative signal retention, in the entire system, is what you are after here. Then go off and learn about EnABL so that your speakers can provide all that your electronics have to give.
Bud
Does not appear to need shielding of any kind. This is an antenna loop, but it is connected to ground, so any active signal intrusion is going to either die right in the loop, which is at a potential lower than local ground, or go off looking for an even lower ground potential.
Simonty,
You are describing the same benefit I find when these things are applied to the ground bus of commercial CD's. The only other sort of ground that provides this is a true poured ground plane, instrumentation grade preferred. I have yet to find a commercial CD player that has anymore than traces for ground connection, with no actual ground plane, other than the case the PCB is installed in. While this is adequate for shielding, it is not apparently good enough for circuit mirror, ground plane activities.
Next try some loops on your speaker's ground side connector and on your amplifier's speaker ground connector too. The cumulative signal retention, in the entire system, is what you are after here. Then go off and learn about EnABL so that your speakers can provide all that your electronics have to give.
Bud
Bud,
Thanks for replying, but now I have questions!
Sanity check - have I done it correctly? Please see attached, which is inside my Philips CD650 (modified).
For my speakers, would directly on the mid range negative terminals be an effective starting point?
As for EnABL - I stumbled across this idea on here a few weeks ago and a couple of days ago ordered a kit from Ed Lafontaine. I can't wait to try it, though I did already make a paper template and use some acrylic paint to do my speaker baffles!
I'm planning my next (open baffle) speakers to make full use of EnABL. Thank you for sharing these (seemingly whacky) ideas.
Simon
Thanks for replying, but now I have questions!
Sanity check - have I done it correctly? Please see attached, which is inside my Philips CD650 (modified).
For my speakers, would directly on the mid range negative terminals be an effective starting point?
As for EnABL - I stumbled across this idea on here a few weeks ago and a couple of days ago ordered a kit from Ed Lafontaine. I can't wait to try it, though I did already make a paper template and use some acrylic paint to do my speaker baffles!
I'm planning my next (open baffle) speakers to make full use of EnABL. Thank you for sharing these (seemingly whacky) ideas.
Simon
Attachments
Simonty.
These are not seemingly wacky ideas, they are the real deal, fully whacked and obviously useless.....
The only thing I would mention, as a change to your pictured pool, is to slit the two end pieces of shrink tubing, fully, and then begin to munch equal slits out of the central piece, from the ends. The Olfa round razor blade knives are very useful for this task. You will be reducing the amount of high frequency dynamic color, with reference to the mids and low frequencies, with the length of the remaining intact plastic in the center of the middle piece of shrink tubing.
You might want to wait to do this however, until you have become thoroughly infected with the EnABL meme. It is much easier to decide these subtle issues, when the speakers are capable of preserving the signal at least as well as the electronics.
I have attached a copy of the text format document, listing of most of the EnABL posts. Please read these, especially the tutorials, before you attempt to pattern anything you care about.
Bud
These are not seemingly wacky ideas, they are the real deal, fully whacked and obviously useless.....
The only thing I would mention, as a change to your pictured pool, is to slit the two end pieces of shrink tubing, fully, and then begin to munch equal slits out of the central piece, from the ends. The Olfa round razor blade knives are very useful for this task. You will be reducing the amount of high frequency dynamic color, with reference to the mids and low frequencies, with the length of the remaining intact plastic in the center of the middle piece of shrink tubing.
You might want to wait to do this however, until you have become thoroughly infected with the EnABL meme. It is much easier to decide these subtle issues, when the speakers are capable of preserving the signal at least as well as the electronics.
I have attached a copy of the text format document, listing of most of the EnABL posts. Please read these, especially the tutorials, before you attempt to pattern anything you care about.
Bud
Thanks Bud, I've read a LOT on EnABL and will keep reading till I'm 100% sure what to do. I'll also start on non-important speakers, like my current (very experimental) open baffles!
I've just electron pooled these speakers at the mid driver's negative terminal. I used 19 x tiny wires & 2 x slightly larger wires (all magnet wire), this time with yellow heat-shrink
This one seems more audible! It's made the sound very smooth, actually a bit too smooth on my Funky Abba CD! If EnABL (subjectively) opens them back up then we're onto a winner here.
Simon
I've just electron pooled these speakers at the mid driver's negative terminal. I used 19 x tiny wires & 2 x slightly larger wires (all magnet wire), this time with yellow heat-shrink
This one seems more audible! It's made the sound very smooth, actually a bit too smooth on my Funky Abba CD! If EnABL (subjectively) opens them back up then we're onto a winner here.
Simon
I've now tried Eric Clapton Unplugged (a reference grade masterpiece of music and recording), which I know intimately, and this is proving quite interesting.
This new smoothness (reduction of grain and noise) initially reduces impact but sometimes allows you to hear deeper into the recording and to tolerate higher volume levels without fatigue. The character (tone and "shape") of some instruments seems to be better resolved. This was particularly noticeable on some treble percussion, such as a tambourine that sounded more like noise before.
I feel silly saying all this, but I'm hearing it.
Simon
This new smoothness (reduction of grain and noise) initially reduces impact but sometimes allows you to hear deeper into the recording and to tolerate higher volume levels without fatigue. The character (tone and "shape") of some instruments seems to be better resolved. This was particularly noticeable on some treble percussion, such as a tambourine that sounded more like noise before.
I feel silly saying all this, but I'm hearing it.
Simon
I think you've provided a very clear description of true improvement.SimontY said:I've now tried Eric Clapton Unplugged (a reference grade masterpiece of music and recording), which I know intimately, and this is proving quite interesting.
This new smoothness (reduction of grain and noise) initially reduces impact but sometimes allows you to hear deeper into the recording and to tolerate higher volume levels without fatigue. The character (tone and "shape") of some instruments seems to be better resolved. This was particularly noticeable on some treble percussion, such as a tambourine that sounded more like noise before.
I feel silly saying all this, but I'm hearing it.
Simon
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