sreten said:
We don't know that these will be used as party speakers... and with an active high-pass on the horns and a sub below, you might be surprised at the levels possible (as long as the room doesn't get too big.
and the narrow box can be made quite aesthetically pleasing... Chris' BHorns are still raw ply because he has been too busy enjoying them to finish them (and the whole shoe-maker thing too)
dave
Thanks alot for all the replies so far. I never thought I'd generate this much attention. The Tempest speaker setup sounds good with those enclosures I already have made. I have heard good things about the NHT 1259 woofer. I am going to look up price estimates on the whole setup.
About those enclosures I have, I did not put any bracing in them...I don't why but never did.
They definitely do need some though. I could brace it when I finally decide on a design and insert braces when I cut out the woofer baffle.
Also, these speakers will not be used for parties, but they will be used for general music listening. My brother knows when speakers are distorting, but his wife probably doesn't, so it would help if it can handle 100-200W no problems.
About those enclosures I have, I did not put any bracing in them...I don't why but never did.
They definitely do need some though. I could brace it when I finally decide on a design and insert braces when I cut out the woofer baffle.
Also, these speakers will not be used for parties, but they will be used for general music listening. My brother knows when speakers are distorting, but his wife probably doesn't, so it would help if it can handle 100-200W no problems.
P10,
I'm sure a horn loaded driver + apex sub would be something
special at around $200 for parts, but its really a lot more.
IMO if you factor In say $15 an hour for building the things,
and lets be honest they have to be built properly, such a
complex project is IMO not a good idea for some-one starting
on the road of DIY.
I'll say it again, I wouldn't build such a project for someone else,
(unless they were a fellow "hifi" enthusiast and would appreciate
the time and effort involved in creating their budget masterpiece.)
Creating a cheap great speaker you really have to know
what you are doing, I'd suggest here it isn't the case.
Taking the original question at face value, the D3s are difficult to
better at the price, and converted to a Tempo style floorstander
would also look extremely good.
IMO the recipients of such a design will be more than well happy,
sreten.
I'm sure a horn loaded driver + apex sub would be something
special at around $200 for parts, but its really a lot more.
IMO if you factor In say $15 an hour for building the things,
and lets be honest they have to be built properly, such a
complex project is IMO not a good idea for some-one starting
on the road of DIY.
I'll say it again, I wouldn't build such a project for someone else,
(unless they were a fellow "hifi" enthusiast and would appreciate
the time and effort involved in creating their budget masterpiece.)
Creating a cheap great speaker you really have to know
what you are doing, I'd suggest here it isn't the case.
Taking the original question at face value, the D3s are difficult to
better at the price, and converted to a Tempo style floorstander
would also look extremely good.
IMO the recipients of such a design will be more than well happy,
sreten.asauer said:
I'm running two of them in Madisound cabiners bi-amped with a Crown Com-tech 410, and I've been pretty happy with them.
They sound surprisingly good with the Azurahorns, although they are a holdover from a previous speaker system. I have seen where other posters indicated that they thought sealed subs can't keep up with horns and don't have adequate transient response (sometimes erroneously said as not being "fast" enough) That doesn't seem to be the case with the NHT1259's. Obviously, horns would be better _grin_
Madisound describes them as "tight and lean" which is probably as good a definition as any.
They may in fact have been superseded by slightly designs. However, far too often other sealed subs sound too boomy to me.
Though in all fairness, the frequencies that are covered by subs can be so affected by room modes, etc. that it really is hard to tell in various rooms and setups.
NHT1259 FAQ is located at
http://www.arsenal.net/speakers/ar/documents/NHT 1259 Frequently Asked Questions.htm
Regards
Ken L
Subwoofer
asauer
Don't know if you want to attempt to better the sub performance, but it would be possible to get improved output from the same enclosure by adding a second driver and re-tuning the port.
Since these are DVC woofers, you would need to wire the woofer coils in series, then the woofers themselves in parallel to yield a 8 ohm load.
You will gain lower excursion, lower distortion, and better damp the woofers in the smaller equivalent volume (same box but half the volume/woofer). You may get a bit of lift(1- 2db) in the upper bass region, but better response lower from the shift in tuning.
The Fb of the port may remain around 27 Hz, but you will need two 3" ports 7.7" in length to keep noise down. The roll-off is eased to about 9 dB from 50 to 25 Hz, which could match the room lift with some experimenting in placement.
The woofers need not be on the same panel, and will work better to cancel movement at opposite ends. You may want to add a cross brace or two while the box is open. Assume you have dacron or some other fill in place now. Adjust as needed to keep ports and drivers open.
Tim
asauer
Don't know if you want to attempt to better the sub performance, but it would be possible to get improved output from the same enclosure by adding a second driver and re-tuning the port.
Since these are DVC woofers, you would need to wire the woofer coils in series, then the woofers themselves in parallel to yield a 8 ohm load.
You will gain lower excursion, lower distortion, and better damp the woofers in the smaller equivalent volume (same box but half the volume/woofer). You may get a bit of lift(1- 2db) in the upper bass region, but better response lower from the shift in tuning.
The Fb of the port may remain around 27 Hz, but you will need two 3" ports 7.7" in length to keep noise down. The roll-off is eased to about 9 dB from 50 to 25 Hz, which could match the room lift with some experimenting in placement.
The woofers need not be on the same panel, and will work better to cancel movement at opposite ends. You may want to add a cross brace or two while the box is open. Assume you have dacron or some other fill in place now. Adjust as needed to keep ports and drivers open.
Tim
Re: Subwoofer
Hmmmm......
Hi Tim,
just some additional comments :
With another identical driver and the same amplifier in the same
box the simulations I did indicated reflex loading would not be
needed as is of little benefit in that size box, driven by that size
of amplifier, they should easily handle 40W each sealed.
But there would be no harm in fitting two drivers and trying the
current 28Hz fitted port ( I simply can't see why two ports would
now be needed ) and experimenting with sealing it to see which
is preferable, I'm very biased towards sealed in this case.
sreten.
Tim Moorman said:
Hmmmm......
Hi Tim,
just some additional comments :
With another identical driver and the same amplifier in the same
box the simulations I did indicated reflex loading would not be
needed as is of little benefit in that size box, driven by that size
of amplifier, they should easily handle 40W each sealed.
But there would be no harm in fitting two drivers and trying the
current 28Hz fitted port ( I simply can't see why two ports would
now be needed ) and experimenting with sealing it to see which
is preferable, I'm very biased towards sealed in this case.
sreten.That Tempo retrofitted with the D3 parts looks like a winner so far.
Streten- so you're saying I should keep the Tempo plans as close as possible (but change the width, etc to fit the speakers)? Also, I'm sure the volume will be different than the D3's original designed volume, so I can't use the D3 crossover, can I?
Streten- so you're saying I should keep the Tempo plans as close as possible (but change the width, etc to fit the speakers)? Also, I'm sure the volume will be different than the D3's original designed volume, so I can't use the D3 crossover, can I?
You must absolutely use the D3 crossover.
You can reduce the D3's baffle width to 8.5".
You just need to arrange for the internal volume to be 31
litres instead of the Tempo's 21 litres, therefore using 8.5"
width and the Tempo height you need to work out the
depth required, I can't say as it depends on what wall
thickness you use. With ~ 31litres you use the D3's port.
But assuming the Tempo construction it needs changing :
~ internal width dimensions +20% i.e. x1.2, ~ internal
depth +30%, i.e. x 1.3. Note internal.
Move the drivers closer together than in the D3, obviously
mount them at the top and copy the Tempo tweeter
mounting but you'll need two braces bottom and top.
Any confusion please ask.
sreten.
You can reduce the D3's baffle width to 8.5".
You just need to arrange for the internal volume to be 31
litres instead of the Tempo's 21 litres, therefore using 8.5"
width and the Tempo height you need to work out the
depth required, I can't say as it depends on what wall
thickness you use. With ~ 31litres you use the D3's port.
But assuming the Tempo construction it needs changing :
~ internal width dimensions +20% i.e. x1.2, ~ internal
depth +30%, i.e. x 1.3. Note internal.
Move the drivers closer together than in the D3, obviously
mount them at the top and copy the Tempo tweeter
mounting but you'll need two braces bottom and top.
Any confusion please ask.
sreten.Double your pleasure
Sreten,
I like sealed boxes in certain settings, and I agree the sims do not show a dramatic improvement. Actually, kind of the reverse with the exception of excursion and gentler slope. This just a way to try it both ways with the same enclosure. If it doesn't work ported, just seal it up and we're at the near optimum size for the two drivers.
I suggested the dual port in the event the original was small and vent noise annoying with the added woofer. Not necessary for the initial trial, and some trial and error expected for final vent tuning.
Actually I like lowish Q stereo sealed subs for less room interaction, and better overall soundstage. I have two powered 10" Scan Speak subs in sealed 90l boxes I built for HT a few years back, now easily bettered by any number of new designs.
My real preference is for a horn sub. Unsurpassed bass, IMO
Tim
Sreten,
I like sealed boxes in certain settings, and I agree the sims do not show a dramatic improvement. Actually, kind of the reverse with the exception of excursion and gentler slope. This just a way to try it both ways with the same enclosure. If it doesn't work ported, just seal it up and we're at the near optimum size for the two drivers.
I suggested the dual port in the event the original was small and vent noise annoying with the added woofer. Not necessary for the initial trial, and some trial and error expected for final vent tuning.
Actually I like lowish Q stereo sealed subs for less room interaction, and better overall soundstage. I have two powered 10" Scan Speak subs in sealed 90l boxes I built for HT a few years back, now easily bettered by any number of new designs.
My real preference is for a horn sub. Unsurpassed bass, IMO
Tim
Ahh I get you now, streten. I didn't know the Tempest's volume was that close to the D3's volume that it would be useable. I expected the Tempest's volume to be much greater.
I will definitely have to go with the D3/Tempest combination.
About my sub (I think you're referring to the one I have in my own setup):
It's in a 4ft^3 box...with a 4x13.5" port tuned to 28Hz (yes, it's VERY long)...so I am 100% sure I will not have any port noise with two subs.
Yes, the port is huge, and I built the box for a friend's car audio system, but it was no longer needed so I took it back.
I couldn't fit both subs on the front baffle, so would you reccommend mounting one on front, one on back? But I think the plate sub amp might be in the way.
Might as well just build a new box, or get a new sub, either way. Any reccommendations on a <$100 sub? The plate amp is a 2-channel designed for DVC subs...so either two SVC or one DVC will be needed.
Thanks alot, I'll post results as I go with the D3/Tempest design.
I will be using 3/4" particle board (yes, I know...
) which already has a nice walnut veneer applied.
I didn't know the Tempest's volume was that close to the D3's volume that it would be useable. I expected the Tempest's volume to be much greater.I will definitely have to go with the D3/Tempest combination.
About my sub (I think you're referring to the one I have in my own setup):
It's in a 4ft^3 box...with a 4x13.5" port tuned to 28Hz (yes, it's VERY long)...so I am 100% sure I will not have any port noise with two subs.
Yes, the port is huge, and I built the box for a friend's car audio system, but it was no longer needed so I took it back.
I couldn't fit both subs on the front baffle, so would you reccommend mounting one on front, one on back? But I think the plate sub amp might be in the way.
Might as well just build a new box, or get a new sub, either way. Any reccommendations on a <$100 sub? The plate amp is a 2-channel designed for DVC subs...so either two SVC or one DVC will be needed.
Thanks alot, I'll post results as I go with the D3/Tempest design.
I will be using 3/4" particle board (yes, I know...
) which already has a nice walnut veneer applied.asauer said:Ahh I get you now, streten.
I will definitely have to go with the D3/Tempest combination.
Might as well just build a new box, or get a new sub, either way. Any reccommendations on a <$100 sub? The plate amp is a 2-channel designed for DVC subs...so either two SVC or one DVC will be needed.
Thanks alot, I'll post results as I go with the D3/Tempest design.
I will be using 3/4" particle board (yes, I know...
D3 / Tempest ? now I'm confused !
Do have a link for your subamplifier ?
sreten.Attachments
Design Choice
asauer,
Somehow things got off track. Maybe I contributed ... apologies.
You need to clarify a few things...
You stated your enclosure is 38.5" x 14" X 14". If these are internal measurements your enclosure is around 4.36 ft^3, or ~122 liters. Much bigger than needed for either design.
The Tempo fits in a 21 liter enclosure and is a two-way floorstander. If you prefer this design, you would need to either fill in the volume of your box to match this, or build a fresh enclosure right off the plans shown.
The Dayton D3 requires a volume of 31 liters and has two woofers and a tweeter. The internal volume needed is still a fraction of your enclosure at 31 liters.
So, I'd save the boxes you have and just build fresh to match the size needed, or look at a design that can exploit this large enclosure. The boxes you have will easily handle a design like the classic 3-way sreten posted earlier. You might as well take advantage of the large volume by using a design that provides lower bass extension, for example.
You could even include a 12" sub and plate amp into the enclosure. Lots of options...
Oh yeah ... the Tempest is a subwoofer made by Adire, not a two-way Tempo.
Tim
asauer,
Somehow things got off track. Maybe I contributed ... apologies.
You need to clarify a few things...
You stated your enclosure is 38.5" x 14" X 14". If these are internal measurements your enclosure is around 4.36 ft^3, or ~122 liters. Much bigger than needed for either design.
The Tempo fits in a 21 liter enclosure and is a two-way floorstander. If you prefer this design, you would need to either fill in the volume of your box to match this, or build a fresh enclosure right off the plans shown.
The Dayton D3 requires a volume of 31 liters and has two woofers and a tweeter. The internal volume needed is still a fraction of your enclosure at 31 liters.
So, I'd save the boxes you have and just build fresh to match the size needed, or look at a design that can exploit this large enclosure. The boxes you have will easily handle a design like the classic 3-way sreten posted earlier. You might as well take advantage of the large volume by using a design that provides lower bass extension, for example.
You could even include a 12" sub and plate amp into the enclosure. Lots of options...
Oh yeah ... the Tempest is a subwoofer made by Adire, not a two-way Tempo.
Tim
Re: Design Choice
Tim,
Asauer is confusing the Tempest and Tempo I think.
The Tempest in question is :
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1030/
sreten.
Tim Moorman said:
Tim,
Asauer is confusing the Tempest and Tempo I think.
The Tempest in question is :
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1030/
sreten.
You guys have got me interested in building a pair of the Buschhorns. Looks like there are a couple of spellings in use. (Buschhorns, Buschorns,II,MK2, MKII)
A search for "Buschhorn Mk2" got me to the site below with a .pdf plan and narative about implementing a FE103E Buschhorn. The original design diagram is there also.
There is also a notch filter recommendation. Planet 10, do you know if the Buschhorns you heard had a notch filter installed?
In the first picture that Planet 10 posted it looks like the cones are treated with Damar. It also looks like it has wooden phase plugs installed. I saw that someone is selling wooden phase plugs on eBay that might work.
It would be fun to drive the horns with a small class A amp such as the DoZ. Ah it never ends.......
A search for "Buschhorn Mk2" got me to the site below with a .pdf plan and narative about implementing a FE103E Buschhorn. The original design diagram is there also.
There is also a notch filter recommendation. Planet 10, do you know if the Buschhorns you heard had a notch filter installed?
In the first picture that Planet 10 posted it looks like the cones are treated with Damar. It also looks like it has wooden phase plugs installed. I saw that someone is selling wooden phase plugs on eBay that might work.
It would be fun to drive the horns with a small class A amp such as the DoZ. Ah it never ends.......
moving_electron said:
No notch filter... ductseal, puzzlecoat, dustcapectomy, and phase plug pretty much cure the problem the notch filter is trying to address.
Puzzlecoat -- it is more flexible than damar (which i have had good sucess with on whizzer cones), these are the arbutus phase plugs, and the ones installed are from the same batch as the ones up on eBay (that is me selling them). The last of the pre-production run is up right now (the next batch will probably be more $$ -- we'll need to sell them for $15 USD to make it worthwhile).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.