There’s always a way to change things, even if manufacturers don’t want to provide it. It’s just a matter of unbalancing the arm so that more of the weight is at the cartridge. The best way to check it would be by using a tracking force gauge – Shure make a good metal one that sells for about US$25, and is widely available. There is also a plastic Ortofon one, which is included with some of their more expensive cartridges, as well as on its own, and is very cheap - see http://www.speakerbits.com.au/Default.aspx?cat=26&menu=21 . It works well, though – I have one that was included with my Ortofon OM-40. It’s just a matter of turning the power off to the turntable, placing the gauge on the platter, and setting the stylus down at the recommended weight on the gauge, and then adding or subtracting weight until the gauge is balanced for the Ortofon gauge, and something similar for the Shure, which has an adjustment to set the tracking weight you want. Set it at 1.5g (15mN) tracking force, and then try adding a slight amount of weight to get the right tracking weight. It probably won’t need much additional weight – I’d try some electrical tape or similar stuck on the tonearm near the cartridge, although I’m just guessing – it may need lead weights, for all I know! Then see if you can get a cheap test record (such as a second hand Shure on Ebay), to test and set the anti-skating. That’s actually a good way of setting anti-skating accurately, rather than relying on the manuafacturer’s settings being right, particularly after a hard life.
If it still distorts, then there’s either something wrong with: (1) the cartridge, which would be covered by warranty, (2) the records, due to being old and worn, or (3) the tonearm – possibly binding tonearm bearings. However, you may be able feel any roughness in the bearing, and unless the turntable’s been grossly abused, it will probably be OK. One problem with a binding tonearm bearing which I came across many years ago was caused by a loose grub screw, which tied the tonearm rotary bearing to the tonearm pivot tube. Because it was loose, it wasn’t holding the base of the tonearm at the pivot clear of the turntable, and it was dragging slightly, creating friction. Raising the tonearm slightly and tightening the grub screw cured it (after removing the nut mounting tonearm to the turntable base). It was more than 20 years ago, so I can’t remember too many details about it – it might have been a nut, rather than a grub screw, but you get the idea! It’s one more thing to look for, and it took me a fair while to find it at the time, so I thought I’d tell you about it to save you the trouble of racking your brains too much if that’s the problem.
You should be able to adjust the point at which the auto return mechanism starts operating – there’ll probably be a screw adjustment to move it around, probably accessible from a small hole in the top of the turntable, near the tonearm pivot. That way you can take that out of operation, by moving it towards the centre of the record, to discount that as causing the problem. If it is the problem, a bit of lubrication to the mechanism should reduce or fix it.
However, the first thing you need to do is move the turntable well away from other equipment, to minimise hum induction from other transformers. Cartridges (Grados and low output MC’s particularly) are very sensitive to hum, because they produce such a tiny output, which has to be amplified a lot. And I wouldn’t describe Styx’s music as cheesy – cheesy is Kylie Minogue or Britney Spears, IMHO!
If it still distorts, then there’s either something wrong with: (1) the cartridge, which would be covered by warranty, (2) the records, due to being old and worn, or (3) the tonearm – possibly binding tonearm bearings. However, you may be able feel any roughness in the bearing, and unless the turntable’s been grossly abused, it will probably be OK. One problem with a binding tonearm bearing which I came across many years ago was caused by a loose grub screw, which tied the tonearm rotary bearing to the tonearm pivot tube. Because it was loose, it wasn’t holding the base of the tonearm at the pivot clear of the turntable, and it was dragging slightly, creating friction. Raising the tonearm slightly and tightening the grub screw cured it (after removing the nut mounting tonearm to the turntable base). It was more than 20 years ago, so I can’t remember too many details about it – it might have been a nut, rather than a grub screw, but you get the idea! It’s one more thing to look for, and it took me a fair while to find it at the time, so I thought I’d tell you about it to save you the trouble of racking your brains too much if that’s the problem.
You should be able to adjust the point at which the auto return mechanism starts operating – there’ll probably be a screw adjustment to move it around, probably accessible from a small hole in the top of the turntable, near the tonearm pivot. That way you can take that out of operation, by moving it towards the centre of the record, to discount that as causing the problem. If it is the problem, a bit of lubrication to the mechanism should reduce or fix it.
However, the first thing you need to do is move the turntable well away from other equipment, to minimise hum induction from other transformers. Cartridges (Grados and low output MC’s particularly) are very sensitive to hum, because they produce such a tiny output, which has to be amplified a lot. And I wouldn’t describe Styx’s music as cheesy – cheesy is Kylie Minogue or Britney Spears, IMHO!
Hehehe, I agree.
I'll try it when I'll have the TT between my hands.
BTW, it's practically the best place where it can be. You did just saw a little part of my room's mess. If I go in the other corner of the room there is a computer... not much better for EMI I think. Every walls are covered with furniture when it's not the door. There are TOO MUCH things in my room...
I've tried to move the arm and the auto-return doesn't seem to apply force on the arm until the very end. I haven't looked under at the same time tho.
Maybe it's the anti skating,
the bearing seems a bit hard to move also.
Maybe I should clean my records?
I just cleaned them with a Decca mk3 but I didn't clean them with any water-alcohol solutions.
Maybe it's the anti skating,
the bearing seems a bit hard to move also.
Maybe I should clean my records?
I just cleaned them with a Decca mk3 but I didn't clean them with any water-alcohol solutions.
Dirt usually makes the records sound noisy, with an increase in surface noise, and the odd click or pop. It doesn’t make them sound distorted, in my experience. So I’d say that you don’t really need to give them a wash. All that that does is wash any dirt deeper into the grooves, where it dries out and causes the stylus to ride along on top of it, causing extra wear due to friction between the silica in the dirt, and the record, unless you use a vacuum cleaning system to suck the dirty fluid out (allegedly). I’ve certainly had better results using a vacuum record cleaner that I bought several years ago, than I ever had before using wet cleaning methods. But, if they do sound noisy, wet cleaning may be necessary. just make sure that you use plenty of fluid, dry it out using clean, dry brushes, and do it several times to make sure that you're not just washing the dirt into the grooves. There's a pretty good tutorial on how to clean effectively on the Disc Doctor's web site at http://www.discdoc.com/p14.html , which may be helpful, even using other cleaning products.
Friction in the tonearm bearings definitely WILL cause distortion. The tonearm should require virtually no force to move it, either horizontally or vertically. However, if the antiskating is still on, that will supply a slight force horizontally as you move the tonearm, which may be what you’re feeling. If you can set the anti-skating to zero, you shouldn’t feel any resistance horizontally. As I’ve said, the only really accurate way to test that anti-skating is set correctly is with a test record – buying a Shure test record on Ebay is cheapest. Most of them have very little use, as they only get used very occasionally when setting turntables up.
Worn records, due to overuse, will distort. As soon as you play a record for the first time, THD begins to increase. There are a number of things like Permostat, Sound Guard (NLA), Last Preservative and Gruv Glide which will slow wear down, but the very nature of records, which have a soft vinyl surface played by an extremely hard stylus, means that they always wear. If the record has been treated well and not abused, 50-100 playings will be possible before it needs throwing away, due to distortion getting too bad. But they should be left for an hour or more after each playing before playing them again, otherwise the vinyl, which gets hot and physically distorted by each playing, won’t have returned to a state of rest. Playing them again straight away will definitely cause accelerated wear. Stanton, and possibly some of the other cartridge manufacturers, have done electron microscope studies of the surface of record grooves before and after playing, to prove that. Interestingly Stanton (late 1970’s or early 1980’s) actually tested the original Decca carbon fibre brush using an electron microscope to examine the record grooves, and their assessment was that the fibres were just too soft to have much effect. Large dust particles were able to deflect the carbon fibres away, and remain on the record. I have two of the original Decca’s in virtually mint condition (one still in its packing, unused – I bought them from an enthusiast who was selling his records and equipment), and a more recent (non-Decca) carbon fibre brush with much stiffer fibres which appears to work better, as well as not shedding fibres like the originals are prone to do. Presumably the later Decca brushes work better.
So, if it distorts with a virgin, unplayed record, there’s something wrong with the turntable or cartridge. If it only distorts with old records, chances are it may be the records. I’ve worn out records myself in my younger days by playing them too much, before CD’s were available – that’s one of the major advantages of CD’s – they should always sound the same, on the same player. I’ve also bought some shocking second hand records, which appeared OK, but after playing them, were clearly suffering badly from wear, either by someone playing them on an inferior record player, with a high tracking weight, or through being overplayed. In general, looking at the surface of the record will tell you if they are in good condition or not, but you really need an electron microscope to check them properly. With good equipment, set up properly, records are capable of good results. Distortion may occasionally be apparent when playing very loud passages on some (very few) records, but most records don’t normally distort noticeably unless they are worn, or the turntable has a problem. See if you can either play your records on another hi-fi turntable which is known to be good, or try a new record (or one which sounds OK on another turntable) on your turntable, to say conclusively where the problem lies. If you go to a local second hand record store, they may be able to give you a demo of a record before you buy it, so that you can see if it sounds OK.
Friction in the tonearm bearings definitely WILL cause distortion. The tonearm should require virtually no force to move it, either horizontally or vertically. However, if the antiskating is still on, that will supply a slight force horizontally as you move the tonearm, which may be what you’re feeling. If you can set the anti-skating to zero, you shouldn’t feel any resistance horizontally. As I’ve said, the only really accurate way to test that anti-skating is set correctly is with a test record – buying a Shure test record on Ebay is cheapest. Most of them have very little use, as they only get used very occasionally when setting turntables up.
Worn records, due to overuse, will distort. As soon as you play a record for the first time, THD begins to increase. There are a number of things like Permostat, Sound Guard (NLA), Last Preservative and Gruv Glide which will slow wear down, but the very nature of records, which have a soft vinyl surface played by an extremely hard stylus, means that they always wear. If the record has been treated well and not abused, 50-100 playings will be possible before it needs throwing away, due to distortion getting too bad. But they should be left for an hour or more after each playing before playing them again, otherwise the vinyl, which gets hot and physically distorted by each playing, won’t have returned to a state of rest. Playing them again straight away will definitely cause accelerated wear. Stanton, and possibly some of the other cartridge manufacturers, have done electron microscope studies of the surface of record grooves before and after playing, to prove that. Interestingly Stanton (late 1970’s or early 1980’s) actually tested the original Decca carbon fibre brush using an electron microscope to examine the record grooves, and their assessment was that the fibres were just too soft to have much effect. Large dust particles were able to deflect the carbon fibres away, and remain on the record. I have two of the original Decca’s in virtually mint condition (one still in its packing, unused – I bought them from an enthusiast who was selling his records and equipment), and a more recent (non-Decca) carbon fibre brush with much stiffer fibres which appears to work better, as well as not shedding fibres like the originals are prone to do. Presumably the later Decca brushes work better.
So, if it distorts with a virgin, unplayed record, there’s something wrong with the turntable or cartridge. If it only distorts with old records, chances are it may be the records. I’ve worn out records myself in my younger days by playing them too much, before CD’s were available – that’s one of the major advantages of CD’s – they should always sound the same, on the same player. I’ve also bought some shocking second hand records, which appeared OK, but after playing them, were clearly suffering badly from wear, either by someone playing them on an inferior record player, with a high tracking weight, or through being overplayed. In general, looking at the surface of the record will tell you if they are in good condition or not, but you really need an electron microscope to check them properly. With good equipment, set up properly, records are capable of good results. Distortion may occasionally be apparent when playing very loud passages on some (very few) records, but most records don’t normally distort noticeably unless they are worn, or the turntable has a problem. See if you can either play your records on another hi-fi turntable which is known to be good, or try a new record (or one which sounds OK on another turntable) on your turntable, to say conclusively where the problem lies. If you go to a local second hand record store, they may be able to give you a demo of a record before you buy it, so that you can see if it sounds OK.
DragonMaster said:
Just that?!?
I now see why they don't sound really good...
Better rip them to something else before wearing them too much!
I'll have to get my Nak working!
Well, 50-100 playings when untreated by preservatives, is the range which seems to get quoted by many experts who've looked into it, including cartridge and record manufacturers. One trick which was often used was to record an LP to cassette when first bought, and play the cassette for the first few months, in order not to wear the record out through frequent playings. These days, I don't need to play records as much, due to having other sources like CD and DVD, so I'm in no danger of wearing mine out too much. However, records probably give me more satisfaction, purely because they take more skill to get the best out of.
I'm the kind of person who could play the same album 10 times a day...
And how the distortion is supposed to sound? All I know is that vocals sound like if they were recorded with a cheap mike on a cheap cassette recorder. It's really metallic sounding. It's mostly on loud passages than anything else. Can too low tracking be the problem?
I don't seem to have ground issues, just hum. I unplugged the TT yesterday and when the arm was next to the end of the record, there was less humming... (More distance from the amp's transformer)
I looked at the wiring and the outputs are connected so that they can both work with a balanced and unbalanced preamp. Each RCAs use a separate ground wire.
And how the distortion is supposed to sound? All I know is that vocals sound like if they were recorded with a cheap mike on a cheap cassette recorder. It's really metallic sounding. It's mostly on loud passages than anything else. Can too low tracking be the problem?
I don't seem to have ground issues, just hum. I unplugged the TT yesterday and when the arm was next to the end of the record, there was less humming... (More distance from the amp's transformer)
I looked at the wiring and the outputs are connected so that they can both work with a balanced and unbalanced preamp. Each RCAs use a separate ground wire.
Maybe you need to see if you can get a cheap shelf so that you can sit the turntable up a bit higher above the other components. Your ground wiring is probably OK. It definitely sounds less like an earthing problem, and more like an induction problem – hum induced into the cartridge. All magnetic cartridges do it, so the advice is always to keep the turntable away from other transformers, if possible. Grado’s are known for being slightly more hum prone, but then so are some low output moving coil cartridges. However, don’t extend your turntable’s phono leads, as that will put too much capacitance loading on the cartridge. Most MM cartridges (apart from some earlier Shures) usually work best with 200-300 pF loading say 100-150 pF from the leads, and the rest from the phono preamp. Too much tends to reduce high frequencies, while too low a capacitance does the opposite.
I’d look at relocating the turntable if possible. Try and keep it away from amplifiers, particularly power amps, or integrated amps. As far as possible is the answer. Never sit it on top of an amp, and try not to sit it next to an amp. Of course, you can always swap them over, if the turntable is on the same side as the amp’s transformer. Put the turntable where the amp is, and vice versa, and the cartridge should be further from the amp, particularly if the amp is on the tonearm side of the turntable, as it appears to be, from your description and photos My turntable is at the top of a rack, with the power amp at the bottom, and two shelves, and about a foot (30 cm) between them. I have a second turntable (of five!! – the others are in the shed, awaiting repair or sale) on a separate table, away from the first. I haven’t got any hum problems with either turntable, at the moment, despite the one at the top of the rack having a low output moving coil, a Denon DL-304. Anyway, having the turntable near cassette decks is probably safer, as you can switch them off… Incidentally, tape decks are also prone to picking up hum if they are near amps, although not quite as prone to hum as turntables.
From various info that I’ve seen, records and styli get very hot, and the vinyl actually melts as the stylus passes along the grooves. The vinyl then solidifies, but from what I’ve heard, doesn’t fully return to normal until 24 hours later. Replaying the vinyl immediately when it is still relatively soft will cause rapid wear. Leave them for at least an hour, if not longer. I know it’s tempting to replay good bits over and over, but save that for CD’s or DVD’s. So, playing it 10 times a day is definitely bad, and will wear them out very quickly. If you want to do that, tape them, or record them to CD, and listen to the CD or tape.
There are a number of preservatives which work very well, and actually can improve sound, due to making the records more slippery, and so producing less THD, according to an Australian testing expert who tested Permostat back in the early 1980’s. He actually wore out several test records, measuring THD as he played them, and the ones treated with Permostat, besides lasting a lot longer, had less THD after being treated. Unfortunately Permostat is hard to get now – it was manufactured in Britain, and is still available there, but is no longer imported to Australia. There was a very similar product called Sound Guard made in the USA, which smelt identical, and seemed to work identically, but that disappeared long ago. Actually, I’ve just done a search, and there is one company selling it, so it may be around still. It’s at http://www.adelcom.net/SoundGuardRecordCare.htm . At present a very similar cleaner/anti-static treatment and preservative called Gruv Glide is sold in the USA, and seems to have had good reports about it. I have also tried another one called Last Record Preservative http://www.lastfactory.com which works slightly differently. It actually changes the chemical composition of the record surface to make it last longer. It is easy enough to apply, and they export to most places, but it doesn’t seem to have any anti-static effect. It has had good reviews, though, and doesn’t seem to have any effect on the sound in my experience. So if it actually preserves them then it should be worthwhile. Also have a look at http://www.vinylengine.com/recordcare.shtml and http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/recordcleaning.html , which have some good info on record care.
The first change you notice with worn records are that the high frequencies are disappearing. No high frequencies mean that they are quite worn. Eventually, you’ll notice distortion when playing loud sections on the record, as if the stylus is having trouble playing the record. It sounds a bit rough – I can’t really describe it. It usually only happens to me when I buy a stack of cheap records, when I should have saved my money! However, it can also be caused by running a cartridge at a lower tracking weight than recommended, like 1.25g instead of 1.5g. Usually it’s safer to use the manufacturer’s highest recommended tracking force – you’ll cause more wear to records by mis-tracking, than by increasing the tracking force slightly. You really need to wait until you have some way of checking the tracking weight before you can set it higher though. The Ortofon or Shure tracking force gauges would be a good start. The Ortofon one is less than half the price of the Shure, but seems to work quite well. The Shure one is metal, so is a lot stronger, though. So, it could be either worn records, or low tracking weight. If it seems OK most of the time, then it may be low tracking weight, which usually effects the sound only on loud music sections, and may only last a few seconds, as the singer blasts out a crescendo. If, however, it is distorting all the way through the record, then chances are the record is a bit worn.
I’ve discovered that buying records second hand is a bit of a lottery on auction sites. You need to check the person’s feedback carefully, and see if they sound like they know what they are talking about. If the person describes his/her records as ‘Near Mint’ for both the cover and the record, and describes how he/she grades them, it’s probably worth trading them. But if they describe them as ‘good’ or “haven’t got a record player, so can’t tell you if they are OK’ and look as though they haven’t sold records before on auction sites, I wouldn’t buy off them. The best place usually is with second hand record dealers, who usually grade them honestly, but are more expensive. Garage sales can turn up bargains, but you take your chances. At least you can look at the records – if the covers have obviously been well cared for, and the records look as though they’ve barely been out of the covers, then they would be worth dealing with.
For the answers to many turntable and cartridge related questions, the best website is AJ Van den Hul’s FAQ page at http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/phono_faq.htm . He is probably the world’s foremost expert on cartridges, after the death of the Australian Garrott Brothers in the early 1990s, and, with the Garrott Brothers’ old partner, and the UK’s Cartridge Man, the only ones capable of conducting stylus re-tipping and cartridge repair.
I’d look at relocating the turntable if possible. Try and keep it away from amplifiers, particularly power amps, or integrated amps. As far as possible is the answer. Never sit it on top of an amp, and try not to sit it next to an amp. Of course, you can always swap them over, if the turntable is on the same side as the amp’s transformer. Put the turntable where the amp is, and vice versa, and the cartridge should be further from the amp, particularly if the amp is on the tonearm side of the turntable, as it appears to be, from your description and photos My turntable is at the top of a rack, with the power amp at the bottom, and two shelves, and about a foot (30 cm) between them. I have a second turntable (of five!! – the others are in the shed, awaiting repair or sale) on a separate table, away from the first. I haven’t got any hum problems with either turntable, at the moment, despite the one at the top of the rack having a low output moving coil, a Denon DL-304. Anyway, having the turntable near cassette decks is probably safer, as you can switch them off… Incidentally, tape decks are also prone to picking up hum if they are near amps, although not quite as prone to hum as turntables.
From various info that I’ve seen, records and styli get very hot, and the vinyl actually melts as the stylus passes along the grooves. The vinyl then solidifies, but from what I’ve heard, doesn’t fully return to normal until 24 hours later. Replaying the vinyl immediately when it is still relatively soft will cause rapid wear. Leave them for at least an hour, if not longer. I know it’s tempting to replay good bits over and over, but save that for CD’s or DVD’s. So, playing it 10 times a day is definitely bad, and will wear them out very quickly. If you want to do that, tape them, or record them to CD, and listen to the CD or tape.
There are a number of preservatives which work very well, and actually can improve sound, due to making the records more slippery, and so producing less THD, according to an Australian testing expert who tested Permostat back in the early 1980’s. He actually wore out several test records, measuring THD as he played them, and the ones treated with Permostat, besides lasting a lot longer, had less THD after being treated. Unfortunately Permostat is hard to get now – it was manufactured in Britain, and is still available there, but is no longer imported to Australia. There was a very similar product called Sound Guard made in the USA, which smelt identical, and seemed to work identically, but that disappeared long ago. Actually, I’ve just done a search, and there is one company selling it, so it may be around still. It’s at http://www.adelcom.net/SoundGuardRecordCare.htm . At present a very similar cleaner/anti-static treatment and preservative called Gruv Glide is sold in the USA, and seems to have had good reports about it. I have also tried another one called Last Record Preservative http://www.lastfactory.com which works slightly differently. It actually changes the chemical composition of the record surface to make it last longer. It is easy enough to apply, and they export to most places, but it doesn’t seem to have any anti-static effect. It has had good reviews, though, and doesn’t seem to have any effect on the sound in my experience. So if it actually preserves them then it should be worthwhile. Also have a look at http://www.vinylengine.com/recordcare.shtml and http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/recordcleaning.html , which have some good info on record care.
The first change you notice with worn records are that the high frequencies are disappearing. No high frequencies mean that they are quite worn. Eventually, you’ll notice distortion when playing loud sections on the record, as if the stylus is having trouble playing the record. It sounds a bit rough – I can’t really describe it. It usually only happens to me when I buy a stack of cheap records, when I should have saved my money! However, it can also be caused by running a cartridge at a lower tracking weight than recommended, like 1.25g instead of 1.5g. Usually it’s safer to use the manufacturer’s highest recommended tracking force – you’ll cause more wear to records by mis-tracking, than by increasing the tracking force slightly. You really need to wait until you have some way of checking the tracking weight before you can set it higher though. The Ortofon or Shure tracking force gauges would be a good start. The Ortofon one is less than half the price of the Shure, but seems to work quite well. The Shure one is metal, so is a lot stronger, though. So, it could be either worn records, or low tracking weight. If it seems OK most of the time, then it may be low tracking weight, which usually effects the sound only on loud music sections, and may only last a few seconds, as the singer blasts out a crescendo. If, however, it is distorting all the way through the record, then chances are the record is a bit worn.
I’ve discovered that buying records second hand is a bit of a lottery on auction sites. You need to check the person’s feedback carefully, and see if they sound like they know what they are talking about. If the person describes his/her records as ‘Near Mint’ for both the cover and the record, and describes how he/she grades them, it’s probably worth trading them. But if they describe them as ‘good’ or “haven’t got a record player, so can’t tell you if they are OK’ and look as though they haven’t sold records before on auction sites, I wouldn’t buy off them. The best place usually is with second hand record dealers, who usually grade them honestly, but are more expensive. Garage sales can turn up bargains, but you take your chances. At least you can look at the records – if the covers have obviously been well cared for, and the records look as though they’ve barely been out of the covers, then they would be worth dealing with.
For the answers to many turntable and cartridge related questions, the best website is AJ Van den Hul’s FAQ page at http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/phono_faq.htm . He is probably the world’s foremost expert on cartridges, after the death of the Australian Garrott Brothers in the early 1990s, and, with the Garrott Brothers’ old partner, and the UK’s Cartridge Man, the only ones capable of conducting stylus re-tipping and cartridge repair.
HI
I would like to get some information or help .
I have a SUPEX SM-1000MK II(Japan) with a broken needle .
The broken stylus marked as SMM/E .
Can some one give some information if these worth that much to search for a new stylus .
If you have any information please let me know .
Thanks
Regards
I would like to get some information or help .
I have a SUPEX SM-1000MK II(Japan) with a broken needle .
The broken stylus marked as SMM/E .
Can some one give some information if these worth that much to search for a new stylus .
If you have any information please let me know .
Thanks
Regards
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