grataku said:
And this statement is totally preposterous.
With so many different compromises amonst the gear we make, there are often situations where all we can say is that it sounds different. And furthermore different people have different tolerances to different compromises so different systems are better than others for different people.
In the end, all that matters is whether you can sit down and enjoy the music (or stand up and dance to it
).dave
"Well the ESLs probably satisfied more of the audiophile buzz words, more detailed, less coloured, but when i hooked the pipes up i found i was spending more time listening and enjoying it more."
Sounds to me like you bought these ESLs just to "fit" into what your conscious rational, audiophile, side of your brain told you you ought to be listening to but then you weren't really happy with. It happened to me too, that's what audiogon is for, but let's move on to the second part of your reply that -I- consider proposterous:
"With so many different compromises amonst the gear we make, there are often situations where all we can say is that it sounds different. "
Audio is my hobby, I already make compromises at work, with the wife, with other motorists while commuting, audio is my little realm where I am the king, where I won't compromise and always struggle for the best sound, the best "karma" call it whatever you want. In my mind I am always trying to go forward, never backward or sideways. Yes, you are right, sometimes all we can say rightaway is that it sounds "different". After a few days, weeks, months of living with a system the difference becomes different for the better, for the worse, or simply I feel uneasy and restless which tells me that something is wrong. I listen mostly to background music, hardly ever in the 'canonic' position, the sweet spot of my system is not occupied by the little comfy single chair. I am usually at the computer, in the kitchen, or reading something, I own no "audiophile" or test cd etc etc. I am by no measure your model audiophile.
"And furthermore different people have different tolerances to different compromises so different systems are better than others for different people."
Sure, there are many aspects of the system that one needs to evaluate in order to establish wether or not one can live with a particular amp or speakers or cd, but sound is the foundation of all things and of course it doesn't matter wether it satisfies some stereophile reviewer, it has to make the actual listener happy. The look and feel, ergonomics, how it all "fits" in one's lifestyle are all very important, too.
It took me 6 years to come up with something I am partially happy with, I still plan to get a new source at some point in the future but I like to think I am moving forward.
So there.
my
Sounds to me like you bought these ESLs just to "fit" into what your conscious rational, audiophile, side of your brain told you you ought to be listening to but then you weren't really happy with. It happened to me too, that's what audiogon is for, but let's move on to the second part of your reply that -I- consider proposterous:
"With so many different compromises amonst the gear we make, there are often situations where all we can say is that it sounds different. "
Audio is my hobby, I already make compromises at work, with the wife, with other motorists while commuting, audio is my little realm where I am the king, where I won't compromise and always struggle for the best sound, the best "karma" call it whatever you want. In my mind I am always trying to go forward, never backward or sideways. Yes, you are right, sometimes all we can say rightaway is that it sounds "different". After a few days, weeks, months of living with a system the difference becomes different for the better, for the worse, or simply I feel uneasy and restless which tells me that something is wrong. I listen mostly to background music, hardly ever in the 'canonic' position, the sweet spot of my system is not occupied by the little comfy single chair. I am usually at the computer, in the kitchen, or reading something, I own no "audiophile" or test cd etc etc. I am by no measure your model audiophile.
"And furthermore different people have different tolerances to different compromises so different systems are better than others for different people."
Sure, there are many aspects of the system that one needs to evaluate in order to establish wether or not one can live with a particular amp or speakers or cd, but sound is the foundation of all things and of course it doesn't matter wether it satisfies some stereophile reviewer, it has to make the actual listener happy. The look and feel, ergonomics, how it all "fits" in one's lifestyle are all very important, too.
It took me 6 years to come up with something I am partially happy with, I still plan to get a new source at some point in the future but I like to think I am moving forward.
So there.
my
grataku said:
No. I sold these when they were new, and listened to them a lot -- i always wanted a pair, so when the opportunity came up to get a pr used at a price i could afford i scooped them up. I was very happy with them for 8 years.
Your 1st pronouncement was Black & White and as such didn't hold water. Now you have modified it to be gray & to include the end user, so now is more valid.
dave
Hi,
Well, I'm just getting a lesson in Hi-End economics myself at the moment. Lets for arguments sake, start with a unit that retails nominally at $ 5,000 plus sales tax.
In general, the dealer margin amounts to around halve of it, giving the dealer room to accept trad in on older gear from people trading up, pay rent in a fairly big shop, pay these pesky and often uninformed salespeople, you know, all that jazz. So, the Distributor sells to the delaer at $ 2,500.
Now the distributor needs to pay his rent and so on, take out adverts in Stereophile or HiFi-News or whatever is en voge where he sells and all. If he buys from overseas at least in the UK he ends up with around 20 - 25% import tax, he needs to make a profit to live on. So lets say he makes 15% profit and pays $ 2,170 landed cost per unit (including tax, shipping, insurance), then he is likely paying at least 30% of this cost in shipping, tax et al.
So the $ 5,000 end customer price unit nets the Factory $ 1,670. Now the given piece of gear is in a case that needs a lot of machining from solid and in small qualtities. It matters little if you calculate the investment in CNC controlled gear and the Interest on that, the cost of contracting out the work or doing it with manual work in house. Then the whole Unit is soldered together by hand and so on. If you can sell a large enough quantities then some scales of economics come in, but at the level of production the Gaincard and much other High End gear sees you pay pretty much retail for the parts.
I think Peter Daniels would not be quitting his job tomorrow to start making Gainclones like his for retail sales with slightly improved cosmetics if he only nets around $ 1,700 each and has to pay the usual taxes on this. Maybe I'm wrong, Peter?
Anyway, my point is that prices in as vertical a market as High End do usually reflect by far more the "imaginary value" assigned to a given product due to the sales structures than the ACTUAL value.
Case point, I'm peripherally involved with the design and marketing of a pretty revolutionary High End product series that the Factory could sell direct for probably around $ 1,200 per unit with good profit.
The end customer price with tight margins everywhere will be around twice that but we all figure we will sell a lot more units at $ 2,400 each with a distribution and dealer network than we would sell units directly for halve the money and thus make more profit, which will please the bank who loaned money to the business.
I (we) don't make the rules, we just play by them...
Sayonara
Well, I'm just getting a lesson in Hi-End economics myself at the moment. Lets for arguments sake, start with a unit that retails nominally at $ 5,000 plus sales tax.
In general, the dealer margin amounts to around halve of it, giving the dealer room to accept trad in on older gear from people trading up, pay rent in a fairly big shop, pay these pesky and often uninformed salespeople, you know, all that jazz. So, the Distributor sells to the delaer at $ 2,500.
Now the distributor needs to pay his rent and so on, take out adverts in Stereophile or HiFi-News or whatever is en voge where he sells and all. If he buys from overseas at least in the UK he ends up with around 20 - 25% import tax, he needs to make a profit to live on. So lets say he makes 15% profit and pays $ 2,170 landed cost per unit (including tax, shipping, insurance), then he is likely paying at least 30% of this cost in shipping, tax et al.
So the $ 5,000 end customer price unit nets the Factory $ 1,670. Now the given piece of gear is in a case that needs a lot of machining from solid and in small qualtities. It matters little if you calculate the investment in CNC controlled gear and the Interest on that, the cost of contracting out the work or doing it with manual work in house. Then the whole Unit is soldered together by hand and so on. If you can sell a large enough quantities then some scales of economics come in, but at the level of production the Gaincard and much other High End gear sees you pay pretty much retail for the parts.
I think Peter Daniels would not be quitting his job tomorrow to start making Gainclones like his for retail sales with slightly improved cosmetics if he only nets around $ 1,700 each and has to pay the usual taxes on this. Maybe I'm wrong, Peter?
Anyway, my point is that prices in as vertical a market as High End do usually reflect by far more the "imaginary value" assigned to a given product due to the sales structures than the ACTUAL value.
Case point, I'm peripherally involved with the design and marketing of a pretty revolutionary High End product series that the Factory could sell direct for probably around $ 1,200 per unit with good profit.
The end customer price with tight margins everywhere will be around twice that but we all figure we will sell a lot more units at $ 2,400 each with a distribution and dealer network than we would sell units directly for halve the money and thus make more profit, which will please the bank who loaned money to the business.
I (we) don't make the rules, we just play by them...
Sayonara
Hi all,
Thanks all for the replies but actually I was hoping for a discussion about the topology of the LM1875/LM3875/LM3885 IC's.
I still don't understand the output stage. I've simulated it, and it works just fine.. but I don't understand how that thing can function as a folower
How about if I ask it in a slighly different way:
If you would build a discrete version of the LM3875, what would be the first thing you would change about the topoly?
gr,
Thijs
Thanks all for the replies but actually I was hoping for a discussion about the topology of the LM1875/LM3875/LM3885 IC's.
I still don't understand the output stage. I've simulated it, and it works just fine.. but I don't understand how that thing can function as a folower
How about if I ask it in a slighly different way:
If you would build a discrete version of the LM3875, what would be the first thing you would change about the topoly?
gr,
Thijs
Hi,
Pretty standard "blameless" Class B quasicomplementary output stage.
Making PNP transistors is still more difficult than making NPN ones in most processes, resulting in complemenatry pairs having different behaviour even if matched on Beta. Thus using so called "complementary" output transistors in Output Stages which do not really complement each other causes often more problems than it solves (other than making unimagitive and stupid design easier). Naim knew why they stayed with "same sex" output transistors since the 1970's...
I would NOT build a discrete version. Why on earth would you do that? Simply Parallel/Bridge enough chips to scale to the power you need, though I find it hard to see in most cases why more than the 50 Watt achievable from a gainclone should be needed.
If you really need to scale past the 200W/8Ohm 400W/4Ohm border where the bridged/parallel LM3875 leaves off I could suggest a variation on the Circlotron Principle.
I once build a batch of "monster" PA Amp's that way, using 130V or so DC Rails for the output stage, which in turn used industrial tripple darlington modules of the 380V/300A switching type on a massive forced air cooling tunnel. The mains transformers where three-phase and something silly like 3 X 5KVA or whatever was the biggest I could find. Driverstage used a solid state hedge circuit realised around TV video output TRansistoirs running on a 360V Rail, balanced in and balanced feedback loop, 1 Amplifier stage and one power follower stage, all NPN Transistors.
I got around 70V RMS out into any test load I could put on, down to large banks of lamps simulating 2 ohm. We normally used to run something like 12 - 20 pcs 18" EV Pro-Line equipped W-Bass Bins or 16 - 24 12" EV equipped Midrange horns of each Amp.
If you can handle cooling and Power supply this principle scales way past 1KVA into 8 Ohm with a load tolerance that can make the big Krell's quake in their boots.
Sayonara
PS - the Amp's sounded uncommenly good for "muscle" power amps, something I now put down to the fully symmetric circuit and the high speed achieved in the circuit, combined with low levels of negative feedback and a simple (1 Gainstage, 1 power Follwer) Circuit
Pretty standard "blameless" Class B quasicomplementary output stage.
Making PNP transistors is still more difficult than making NPN ones in most processes, resulting in complemenatry pairs having different behaviour even if matched on Beta. Thus using so called "complementary" output transistors in Output Stages which do not really complement each other causes often more problems than it solves (other than making unimagitive and stupid design easier). Naim knew why they stayed with "same sex" output transistors since the 1970's...
I would NOT build a discrete version. Why on earth would you do that? Simply Parallel/Bridge enough chips to scale to the power you need, though I find it hard to see in most cases why more than the 50 Watt achievable from a gainclone should be needed.
If you really need to scale past the 200W/8Ohm 400W/4Ohm border where the bridged/parallel LM3875 leaves off I could suggest a variation on the Circlotron Principle.
I once build a batch of "monster" PA Amp's that way, using 130V or so DC Rails for the output stage, which in turn used industrial tripple darlington modules of the 380V/300A switching type on a massive forced air cooling tunnel. The mains transformers where three-phase and something silly like 3 X 5KVA or whatever was the biggest I could find. Driverstage used a solid state hedge circuit realised around TV video output TRansistoirs running on a 360V Rail, balanced in and balanced feedback loop, 1 Amplifier stage and one power follower stage, all NPN Transistors.
I got around 70V RMS out into any test load I could put on, down to large banks of lamps simulating 2 ohm. We normally used to run something like 12 - 20 pcs 18" EV Pro-Line equipped W-Bass Bins or 16 - 24 12" EV equipped Midrange horns of each Amp.
If you can handle cooling and Power supply this principle scales way past 1KVA into 8 Ohm with a load tolerance that can make the big Krell's quake in their boots.
Sayonara
PS - the Amp's sounded uncommenly good for "muscle" power amps, something I now put down to the fully symmetric circuit and the high speed achieved in the circuit, combined with low levels of negative feedback and a simple (1 Gainstage, 1 power Follwer) Circuit
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Sir,
What this situation really illustrates is "cottage Industry" sort of production. It would be my guess that 47 Labs is VERY small, both financially and physically. At their current prices 47 Labs is not going to grow alot. That's ok if it's coincident with their goals. Part of the cottage industry model involves pricing yourself to sustain the business size at a point where they don't have to reinvest large sums or adopt large scale production methods.
I once owned a similar business which I ran from my home. However, I was able to buy raw goods well and outsource various aspects of production. Thus the cost of my finished products was not so very much higher than mass produced goods.
My present employer manufactures very niche market high-tech computer systems for broadcasting...not so different from high-end audio. The numbers in our business roughly reflect the margins & markups that you presently see in the Gaincard.
It's very easy to envision the Gaincard (or similar derivative) being produced in larger numbers for MUCH less $$$. If Peter can get started in the direction then chances for his success improve dramatically as he is able to approach a larger market and has enough margin available to pay both distributors and resellers.
If someone (say Peter) wants to create an object d'art reference model that's beautifully made and tremendously expensive...more power to him. But such an offering is unlikely to be the basis for a solid full-time business. Still, every company needs a flagship product. And Peter's amp is gorgeous.
Note that I have no comment about the quality of the device, its design or marketing claims.
Michael
"Now you have modified it to be gray & to include the end user"
I expanded it, not modified. It is still pretty black and white really. Let me put it this way, only under extreme circumstances would I move to what I think is an inferior system. Actually, no, I'd rather have no system at all.
Come to think of it, I got a Sony boombox that's pretty musical...
I expanded it, not modified. It is still pretty black and white really. Let me put it this way, only under extreme circumstances would I move to what I think is an inferior system. Actually, no, I'd rather have no system at all.
Come to think of it, I got a Sony boombox that's pretty musical...
Hi,
Probably one with moderatly large fullrange drivers plus supertweeters and a simple, minimal parts count chip amp and a deliberatly limited bandwidth following broadly the "rule of 400000".
I have a cheap small very stripped down "Goodmans" Micro "HiFi" System I run with a pair of old JVC fullrange speaker systems that are wall hanging in my bedroom.
The fullrange speakers are 6.5" Alnico magnet and have no whizzer but are C37 Lacquered and had the stamped basket damped with lead strips. They are objectively speaking clearly defficient in the high treble and low bass.
The Micro System has a simple chip amp with low power (rated 5W per channel into 4 ohm, the Speakers are 16 Ohm!) and a basic one chip CD-Player with a very basic digital tuna (or whatever that radio fish is called). BTW, I rounded off the PCB corners and C37 lackquered the PCB, the Micro sits on chinese chesspieces as feet. The whole combination together nevertheless sounds very "musical" and quite enjoyable.
Given a choice I prefer by far the "big rig" downstairs (Big Corner 15" Tannoys, SE valve Amps, Analog, C37 everything, more seperate boxes than you can throw sticks at, response down to 20Hz in room and enough SPL potential to match a good seat in the concert hall), but compared to many modern "High Fidelity" or even "High End" systems I have heard I'd prefer my upstairs "backgrund music for f...ing" system in most cases for being more imediate, exciting and communicative.
I even on occasion listen to "Classic FM" on this slightly modded $ 60 2nd hand assembly of "****" I got from the local "cash converters".
Is it "HiFi"?
Hell No.
Does it play music in an enjoyable way?
Hell Yeah.
And that, I believe, is part of the "secret" of the 47labs gear and Konsu Speakers together.
Sayonara
Come to think of it, I got a Sony boombox that's pretty musical...
Probably one with moderatly large fullrange drivers plus supertweeters and a simple, minimal parts count chip amp and a deliberatly limited bandwidth following broadly the "rule of 400000".
I have a cheap small very stripped down "Goodmans" Micro "HiFi" System I run with a pair of old JVC fullrange speaker systems that are wall hanging in my bedroom.
The fullrange speakers are 6.5" Alnico magnet and have no whizzer but are C37 Lacquered and had the stamped basket damped with lead strips. They are objectively speaking clearly defficient in the high treble and low bass.
The Micro System has a simple chip amp with low power (rated 5W per channel into 4 ohm, the Speakers are 16 Ohm!) and a basic one chip CD-Player with a very basic digital tuna (or whatever that radio fish is called). BTW, I rounded off the PCB corners and C37 lackquered the PCB, the Micro sits on chinese chesspieces as feet. The whole combination together nevertheless sounds very "musical" and quite enjoyable.
Given a choice I prefer by far the "big rig" downstairs (Big Corner 15" Tannoys, SE valve Amps, Analog, C37 everything, more seperate boxes than you can throw sticks at, response down to 20Hz in room and enough SPL potential to match a good seat in the concert hall), but compared to many modern "High Fidelity" or even "High End" systems I have heard I'd prefer my upstairs "backgrund music for f...ing" system in most cases for being more imediate, exciting and communicative.
I even on occasion listen to "Classic FM" on this slightly modded $ 60 2nd hand assembly of "****" I got from the local "cash converters".
Is it "HiFi"?
Hell No.
Does it play music in an enjoyable way?
Hell Yeah.
And that, I believe, is part of the "secret" of the 47labs gear and Konsu Speakers together.
Sayonara
For one, you can check the datasheet.
But to give you some idea:
A friend of mine blew up one channel when he played very loud for significant time on 83 db (8 ohm) speakers. You can see his heatsink here.
I myself have 98 db speakers (10 ohm) and when playing loud, the heatsink warms up to about 45 degrees celcius (it's a guess; it feels pretty warm). This is my heatsink:
But to give you some idea:
A friend of mine blew up one channel when he played very loud for significant time on 83 db (8 ohm) speakers. You can see his heatsink here.
I myself have 98 db speakers (10 ohm) and when playing loud, the heatsink warms up to about 45 degrees celcius (it's a guess; it feels pretty warm). This is my heatsink:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That must be me
But in my defense I have to say that it were 82 dB/W speakers
Also, the contact between the heat sink and the case was bad. And I played very loud with lots a bass !!! (I forget the cd title, it was from LTJ Bukem: Jungle by a live band with killer bass). At that time, I was quite amazed by the improvement in bass tightness with my new CAT5 cables resulting in a bad smell of my amp...
With my new 93 dB/W Tannoys the amp stays very cool during normal listening.
Fedde
But in my defense I have to say that it were 82 dB/W speakers
Also, the contact between the heat sink and the case was bad. And I played very loud with lots a bass !!! (I forget the cd title, it was from LTJ Bukem: Jungle by a live band with killer bass). At that time, I was quite amazed by the improvement in bass tightness with my new CAT5 cables resulting in a bad smell of my amp...
With my new 93 dB/W Tannoys the amp stays very cool during normal listening.
Fedde
I made a prototype amp using 3875. I did an experiment on heat dissipation btwn T and TF packages. I was surprised by the difference in the temperature of heatsink. I expected T package would get hotter than TF package, but the result is much more than I expected. T gets really hot. I used an aluminum block measuring 2x10x0.25" as a heatsink. I'm wondering if this is natural or I am doing something wrong.
I used the typical inverting circuit with all the resistors of 47k. Yes, the gain is unity. No volume pot. I connected the amp to directly soundcard output of my PC (using soundcard as a preamp and 3875 as a power amp).
I used the typical inverting circuit with all the resistors of 47k. Yes, the gain is unity. No volume pot. I connected the amp to directly soundcard output of my PC (using soundcard as a preamp and 3875 as a power amp).
According to the datasheet at unity gain, the LM3886/LM3875 will oscilate.
Mine did
at the heatsink was very hot (to hot to touch)!. Once I settled the gain to 20x the amp was perfectly cool. Heatsink was black alluminium, 15cmx5cmx4cm. That's enough for my 2 amp's running relative low vulome I guess. I measured the Vout with a multimeter (again!), normal listening volume was about 1Vrms. Think about it! Total system gain was less than unity!
PS
The gainclone schematic features a 100K volume pot that can cause oscilation, better use a 10K Log pot to prevent this.
gr,
Thijs
Mine did
at the heatsink was very hot (to hot to touch)!. Once I settled the gain to 20x the amp was perfectly cool. Heatsink was black alluminium, 15cmx5cmx4cm. That's enough for my 2 amp's running relative low vulome I guess. I measured the Vout with a multimeter (again!), normal listening volume was about 1Vrms. Think about it! Total system gain was less than unity!PS
The gainclone schematic features a 100K volume pot that can cause oscilation, better use a 10K Log pot to prevent this.
gr,
Thijs
Hi Kuei,
I recall reading something along time ago on a website by owned by an Andre from memory. Was a very good site with some interesting articles and pointers on building valve amps.
(Kept the article, let me read ) He had an article about the Austrian inventor of C37 Dieter Enemoser.
This guy was an Engineer and trained as a violin maker who was silenced by his peers in the violin industry for making non violin looking violins that I assume were c37 type violins. In the end he did time for his crime of breaching the trades description act and whilst in prison for this horrendous crime wrote a book on c37.
I assume the c37 laquer is the same stuff, is it readily available in music stores or something?
BTW the guys name was Andre Jute and imagine hes quite well known amongst some of you.
I recall reading something along time ago on a website by owned by an Andre from memory. Was a very good site with some interesting articles and pointers on building valve amps.
(Kept the article, let me read
) He had an article about the Austrian inventor of C37 Dieter Enemoser.This guy was an Engineer and trained as a violin maker who was silenced by his peers in the violin industry for making non violin looking violins that I assume were c37 type violins. In the end he did time for his crime of breaching the trades description act and whilst in prison for this horrendous crime wrote a book on c37.
I assume the c37 laquer is the same stuff, is it readily available in music stores or something?
BTW the guys name was Andre Jute and imagine hes quite well known amongst some of you.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.