Peter Daniel said:
[slowly]
I am trying to locate information related to the fundamentals of design for "gainclones".
[/slowly]
Not documentation of case-study buildups and individual applications. Those are nice when it comes time to build one.
But before the build, must come the design.
And before the design, must come knowledge!
As I stated in post #1:
geolemon said:
Alex S -
Thank you!!
That's a very good site, has lots of information that's very helpful.
Thanks also for the earlier link to the tnt-audio review... some more stuff to research... the "Rowland Concentra" and it's design intents, and the LM3886's which it apparently utilizes 12 of... and the Final power amp (which says it is battery powered.. possibly a clue for a 12v-based system?), with a single LM1875...
And of course the 47-labs gaincard.
Even on surface level though... an interesting review, creating some curiousity... the reviewer had some criticism, but seemingly contained to when listening to digital (read: encoded) signal. I'm definitely a believer in this loudspeaker imaging theorum.
Also, their comments regarding the goofy behavior that they attributed to an incompatible impedance on the input side make you wonder if there was a tweak to be made...
The criticisms of lack of bass response must make one curious about the power supply or capacitance for reserve...
Intriguing stuff, anyway!
geolemon,
I think what you are trying to do here is get all the math and theoretical aspects of gainclone design and I can appreciate trying to fully understand something before you step head on into it; however, if theory and math is what you're looking for I think you're in the wrong place. From my short existence on this forum so far I've realized that a strong philosophy here is "learn what works by trial and error and share your findings with everyone else". Now, that means that if you want an opinion on capacitor brands or a schematic to try out then great, because that's all here. As far as "this particular resistor distorts the signal less because it uses this material which has this property that leads to less of a magnetic field around the resistor blah blah blah", then I don't think you'll get that here. Maybe you should look at getting an electrical engineering textbook, checking out op-amp based amplifier design and then learning about different materials used in different types of components and how they actually effect different frequency signals passing through them. I'd love to fully understand gainclone design and component choice (maybe better suited to an electrical engineering degree/masters) but I've chosen to go with the trial and error method. Fortunately, the nice folks on this forum are willing to answer my questions drawing on their experiences and hopefully save me some frustration in the process.
I think what you are trying to do here is get all the math and theoretical aspects of gainclone design and I can appreciate trying to fully understand something before you step head on into it; however, if theory and math is what you're looking for I think you're in the wrong place. From my short existence on this forum so far I've realized that a strong philosophy here is "learn what works by trial and error and share your findings with everyone else". Now, that means that if you want an opinion on capacitor brands or a schematic to try out then great, because that's all here. As far as "this particular resistor distorts the signal less because it uses this material which has this property that leads to less of a magnetic field around the resistor blah blah blah", then I don't think you'll get that here. Maybe you should look at getting an electrical engineering textbook, checking out op-amp based amplifier design and then learning about different materials used in different types of components and how they actually effect different frequency signals passing through them. I'd love to fully understand gainclone design and component choice (maybe better suited to an electrical engineering degree/masters) but I've chosen to go with the trial and error method. Fortunately, the nice folks on this forum are willing to answer my questions drawing on their experiences and hopefully save me some frustration in the process.
for some "theory and maths", check out:
Nat Semi Application Note 20 An Applications Guide for Op Amps
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-20.pdf
Nat Semi Application Note 1192 Overture Series High-Power Solutions
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1192.pdf
Jensen Application Note 001 Some Tips on Stablizing Operational Amps
http://www.comtran.com/an/an001.pdf
Nat Semi Application Note 20 An Applications Guide for Op Amps
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-20.pdf
Nat Semi Application Note 1192 Overture Series High-Power Solutions
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1192.pdf
Jensen Application Note 001 Some Tips on Stablizing Operational Amps
http://www.comtran.com/an/an001.pdf
geolemon said:
I don't want to interfere with your interesting thought process, but the design is already incapsulated in plastic (an IC itself). So it won't come , it already is.
All you can do is make your choice on the chip. I can't tell you which one to choose (because you won't take me seriously anyway). You might try to decide for yourself, which one strikes your fancy, but unless you build few amps, I don't think it's possible.
After you choose the chip, you might try to test different configurations (inverting, non-inverting, different components values and allocations). You might experiment with different PS supplies and different component's types.
But all this is not really designing and searching for knowledge. It is simply applying something that is already invented and it's quite boring. You might actually get disappointed in the end.
I would advise
Mr. Geolemon not to look at this forum, diyaudio.com but better at
LIYAUDIO.COM (learn it yourself). I have picked up a lot of theory from that forum in order to understand how current flows. After that I did come here and consulted a lot of guys in order to find out what components are better or which designs are simpler to work with!
By the Holy cow of Vishnu, I am not an Indian!
Jean-Pierre
I think I rest my case after reading this interesting piece of ricochetting!
Mr. Geolemon not to look at this forum, diyaudio.com but better at
LIYAUDIO.COM (learn it yourself). I have picked up a lot of theory from that forum in order to understand how current flows. After that I did come here and consulted a lot of guys in order to find out what components are better or which designs are simpler to work with!
Peter Daniel said:
By the Holy cow of Vishnu, I am not an Indian!
Jean-Pierre
I think I rest my case after reading this interesting piece of ricochetting!
hey geo, you should IM me some time on AIM -- thechris1721 or PM me at CAF. really, you should build one of these amps. i have a kinda built for some computer speakers. ironically when i posted that i had no case people said that they sometimes liked the sound of open air amps... i felt bad explaining that i just didn't have money/time for a real case...
in anycase, i suggest you look into basic lm3875 circuits.
you'll notice that pretty much all gainclones are basic op-amp circuits, with higher voltage rails and some pretty features... In anycase the fact that you don't have to design an amplifer so much as kinda program it means you can devote a lot of time to pretty in and out stuff or go minimalist. the cheap cost allows for biamping/triamping.
the chips can be paralled for low impedance useage. 2 lm4780s could be used for a car amplifer, and would probably give about 200 watts at 2ohm, but not commercially becuase tolerances would probably be too expensive. i think there is a TDA IC that can be set up as master - slave for better paralleling.
geo - most car audio HUs and computer speakers are based upon chip amps.
you probably won't find a definitve "this is gainclone, so say I, and thus anything else is not". the national datasheets give perfectly fine amps for monblocks or stereo amps, well, except for the massively flawed inverting amps on the lm4780 and lm4732 datasheets... but then some people like me say - i want to biamp. so i build a simple active crossover. and then what if you wanted to build a tube-buffered gainclone possibly for a balenced input or just to play with tubes? or what if you wanted a home sub amp? you might need some lowpass of some kind. and what if you're having issues with the ICs ossilating? they have RF protection circuits, zobel networks, feedback compensation at high frequecies, DC offset protection networks, ect...
my clone is the active crossover with a minimal of excess components. not because i particularly because i designed it that way, but because my old computer speakers died and i wanted an amp. in my design i have no DC blocking caps on the input or feedback, nor a volume setting pot. nor a power switch...
and on a side note, i like that gainclones are easy, but i dislike some aspects of it in that it somewhat promotes people to play with electricity. have all the fun you want with 9V batteries, but when it comes to high-voltage high-current stuff, well, playtime is over. fuses are needed and at least a basic understanding of what is going on is strongly reccomended.
in anycase, i suggest you look into basic lm3875 circuits.
you'll notice that pretty much all gainclones are basic op-amp circuits, with higher voltage rails and some pretty features... In anycase the fact that you don't have to design an amplifer so much as kinda program it means you can devote a lot of time to pretty in and out stuff or go minimalist. the cheap cost allows for biamping/triamping.
the chips can be paralled for low impedance useage. 2 lm4780s could be used for a car amplifer, and would probably give about 200 watts at 2ohm, but not commercially becuase tolerances would probably be too expensive. i think there is a TDA IC that can be set up as master - slave for better paralleling.
geo - most car audio HUs and computer speakers are based upon chip amps.
you probably won't find a definitve "this is gainclone, so say I, and thus anything else is not". the national datasheets give perfectly fine amps for monblocks or stereo amps, well, except for the massively flawed inverting amps on the lm4780 and lm4732 datasheets... but then some people like me say - i want to biamp. so i build a simple active crossover. and then what if you wanted to build a tube-buffered gainclone possibly for a balenced input or just to play with tubes? or what if you wanted a home sub amp? you might need some lowpass of some kind. and what if you're having issues with the ICs ossilating? they have RF protection circuits, zobel networks, feedback compensation at high frequecies, DC offset protection networks, ect...
my clone is the active crossover with a minimal of excess components. not because i particularly because i designed it that way, but because my old computer speakers died and i wanted an amp. in my design i have no DC blocking caps on the input or feedback, nor a volume setting pot. nor a power switch...
and on a side note, i like that gainclones are easy, but i dislike some aspects of it in that it somewhat promotes people to play with electricity. have all the fun you want with 9V batteries, but when it comes to high-voltage high-current stuff, well, playtime is over. fuses are needed and at least a basic understanding of what is going on is strongly reccomended.
well geolemon..
I perfectly understand(i think) what you want.. actually with all your describing of your search of knowledge i can't possibly understand how anyone can have missed what you are looking for and what you want.
But, i'm afraid i haven't got a knowledge of this subject so deep that i could teach it to you in a good way. And it doesn't seem there are so many here that has such knowledge, or maybe the will to, learn you what you want. Which is unfortunate.
I think that to get the understanding and knowledge about this, that you want, you'll have to read, think and study quite much.
My experience is that you'll actually have to learn and study very much before the understanding of the subject starts to grow.
Well anyway i would recommend these books to start with:
Boylestad: Introductory Circuit Analysis,
Floyd: Electronic devices, Prentice-Hall
Especially The book by floyd.
maybe one of these might be of help to, but i haven't read these:
Johns, Martin Analog integrated circuit design
Millman, Grabel Microelectronics
Davidse Analog electric circuit design
Jaeger, Microelectronic circuit design
I hope this helps! and i wish you luck in your search of knowledge..
there is one more possibility
Attend to the electronic engineer program (3 years) which i'm currently at..
I perfectly understand(i think
) what you want.. actually with all your describing of your search of knowledge i can't possibly understand how anyone can have missed what you are looking for and what you want. But, i'm afraid i haven't got a knowledge of this subject so deep that i could teach it to you in a good way. And it doesn't seem there are so many here that has such knowledge, or maybe the will to, learn you what you want. Which is unfortunate.
I think that to get the understanding and knowledge about this, that you want, you'll have to read, think and study quite much.
My experience is that you'll actually have to learn and study very much before the understanding of the subject starts to grow.
Well anyway i would recommend these books to start with:
Boylestad: Introductory Circuit Analysis,
Floyd: Electronic devices, Prentice-Hall
Especially The book by floyd.
maybe one of these might be of help to, but i haven't read these:
Johns, Martin Analog integrated circuit design
Millman, Grabel Microelectronics
Davidse Analog electric circuit design
Jaeger, Microelectronic circuit design
I hope this helps! and i wish you luck in your search of knowledge..
there is one more possibility
Attend to the electronic engineer program (3 years) which i'm currently at..
geolemon said:
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. There is the information you seek here but it is often buried deep within lengthy threads full of opinions
It's absolutely not my style to "just pick one" and run with it.
Be brave! You sound as if you have experience so surely you know that absolutely the only way to learn is to DO! I knew nothing about the architecture of audio equipment when I decided to build my first GC, but with some help from others (quite a lot from some) and half a year of building, I now know NEXT TO nothing, which is a big step up in this field I think
I am going to make a statement and come out of retirement in this forum.Sorry but i have had some major health problems in the last 4 months and have been in and out of the hospital and i find that i have little energy to be involved in multi forums.
Geolemon, your questions are about typical of a 3rd year Engr. student.I recieved a ME degree years ago (first project was the wheel) and i realize WHY you posted the questions. As you get into the real world (dont take that wrong please) you will find that you have to build on current knowledge, known performance of an item and spec and data sheets save lots of effort and time.You will find , in the current era, that TIME for a project is a major concern. All of the regs in this and other forums have spent a great deal of time wth different configs and testing of various components to get the last little bit of performance from chips.Your analogy to cars is correct , but all the chip Mfgs. have done is give us the engine and all we have done is tune it, we were never out to re-design a chip.If you really want to accomplish something then go to discrete, but i really doubt that the short signal paths will occur and that is one of the primary advantages of the chip amp.
Is it the best amp in the world?
I doubt it.However i firmly believe it has the best performance/cost ratio currently avaliable given that you build it yourself and stay within the established parameters.
Kinda tired after this long post, and i have some chemo treatments later in the day so i will leave.
Just remember yall, its all about the music, not the physics.
ron
Geolemon, your questions are about typical of a 3rd year Engr. student.I recieved a ME degree years ago (first project was the wheel) and i realize WHY you posted the questions. As you get into the real world (dont take that wrong please) you will find that you have to build on current knowledge, known performance of an item and spec and data sheets save lots of effort and time.You will find , in the current era, that TIME for a project is a major concern. All of the regs in this and other forums have spent a great deal of time wth different configs and testing of various components to get the last little bit of performance from chips.Your analogy to cars is correct , but all the chip Mfgs. have done is give us the engine and all we have done is tune it, we were never out to re-design a chip.If you really want to accomplish something then go to discrete, but i really doubt that the short signal paths will occur and that is one of the primary advantages of the chip amp.
Is it the best amp in the world?
I doubt it.However i firmly believe it has the best performance/cost ratio currently avaliable given that you build it yourself and stay within the established parameters.
Kinda tired after this long post, and i have some chemo treatments later in the day so i will leave.
Just remember yall, its all about the music, not the physics.
ron
lol... that figures!ecliptica said:
I actually own a good book by Boylestad "Electronic Devices and Circuit Theory" (from my abbreviated term as an EE student way back when.. I have the 5th edition, that probably dates me
)But not the Floyd book... figures.
Intriguing, and not, at the same time.ecliptica said:
Good idea for sure, but I've got about 2 years as an EE student back in my "indecisive college years" history...
The theoretical, abstractness was partially what discouraged me.
But hence my attraction to this gainclone concept...
Seems like a good introduction (or review?) to some EE concepts, in an applied manner... I'm not "solving for X"... I'd know the goals of my design.
To draw a perfect analogy: I always loved physics, yet hated math.
Time is also at a premium for me...
I left my previous "career job" several months ago, in part to pick up 16 credit hours of classes that I've been wanting to knock away for about 10 years now (
)... and also in part to help launch a company that I am cofounder of.All the more reason to plan, IMO. <-- ie. "look before you leap"
Thanks for your advice though, it was right on target.
geolemon,
I’d like to propose something to you. Instead of running around in circles with no specific direction why not start with formulating the type of amp you really need right now. Let say 50W/8Ohms with built in volume control. It’ll get the signal from a CDP with output impedance of 2K and 2V=0dB. The source has a DC voltage on its output.
You have to pick the IGC vs. NIGC, single or dual PS. Amount of PS capacitance, input attenuator/potentiometer…..
May I suggest to start with the normal 0.1cent resistors and capacitors and once you have it going and you cover the main requirements you start playing with the quality/type of the components. This way you’ll see for yourself how much difference it’ll make TO YOU.
Ones you’re in the process the questions will become more specific and real.
As a first step learn the main configurations of a basic OPAMP (inverting and non-inverting topology, offsets, AC/DC gain , input impedance, + and – of each configuration). Look at how that applies to the GC (there’s no difference at all, it’s just one powerful op amp).
Draw the schematic and try to optimize it to a point that you don’t have unnecessary components and you have minimum amount of components that the signal will have to go through.
Does it sound like a plan?
I’d like to propose something to you. Instead of running around in circles with no specific direction why not start with formulating the type of amp you really need right now. Let say 50W/8Ohms with built in volume control. It’ll get the signal from a CDP with output impedance of 2K and 2V=0dB. The source has a DC voltage on its output.
You have to pick the IGC vs. NIGC, single or dual PS. Amount of PS capacitance, input attenuator/potentiometer…..
May I suggest to start with the normal 0.1cent resistors and capacitors and once you have it going and you cover the main requirements you start playing with the quality/type of the components. This way you’ll see for yourself how much difference it’ll make TO YOU.
Ones you’re in the process the questions will become more specific and real.
As a first step learn the main configurations of a basic OPAMP (inverting and non-inverting topology, offsets, AC/DC gain , input impedance, + and – of each configuration). Look at how that applies to the GC (there’s no difference at all, it’s just one powerful op amp).
Draw the schematic and try to optimize it to a point that you don’t have unnecessary components and you have minimum amount of components that the signal will have to go through.
Does it sound like a plan?
Absolutely. I actually remember you mentioning "gainclones" on CAP of all places.theChris said:
I'll PM you either at CAP or CAF about them...
I'd like to do a 'straightforward' one, just to power some home stereo set... just a pair of them.
But you know me and my non-standard ventures... I'd like to see if these could be used (or modified to be used) to support any of my more "interesting" ideas.
Hence my interests in learning their boundaries and limitations, at a macro-level.
Oh, I in full realization of this... but particular with respect to car audio head units, you know the limitation.. you can't fit a transformer in the case, limiting output I believe to about 22 watts, given the 12v source.theChris said:
I do want to explore this though, in a car application, the limitations (or benefits...as I hear DC battery sources being discussed!
) that really exist for IC amps....which is another thing I wanted to discuss with you, actually...theChris said:
Regarding your CAP thread on custom circuits... I've got some more ideas (still am heavily pondering that "non-summed center" concept, particularly after Manville gave me the 20 minute extended demo in JL's mini cooper at CES 2004 (drool!)
Ron...ron clarke said:
I'm no student.
Well, I am actually pushing through 16 credits I wanted to nail down about 10 years back, which will give me a new degree...
But I've been a DBA for the past 10 years, working in large corporate implementations... my first shop being one of the largest call-centers in the world (the building having more connectivity and bandwidth than the rest of Western NY state combined), doing business intelligence research (data warehousing and data mining, star schema and OLAP design work primarily), working on what was the largest IBM AS/400 midrange system east of the Mississippi, at least until several years ago.
After that, I moved on to General Electric, quite literally the world's largest corporation, doing essentially the same work, for several years. One critical project was migrating a data warehousing environment off of an AS/400 environment into a Windows environment, MS SQL Server, without room for error.
After that, for just a little more than a year, I worked in an exclusively MS SQL Server environment, working in a more operations-capacity (which I simply didn't enjoy as much), administrating replication, jobs, and developing SQL stored procedures in a fairly complex multi-server, SQL-server clustered environment, for RSA.
I mention this in detail, because I think with my background, it's easy to see why I would naturally wish to learn the fundamentals and basis behind the decisions that have been made... to learn from the experiences of those who trod before me, rather than just essentially randomly select a schematic, chip, and start tweaking the components to see what can be manipulated within the scope of that particular combination.
All I'm looking to do is a little planning, essentially.
I've probably never been involved in a successful project, that didn't first involve a project plan...
...and at that rate, a project manager to administrate it (these people get big money... not because project planning doesn't offer any value.
).I understand, but it's apparently difficult to learn what the boundaries and threshholds are...ron clarke said:
There is precious little in the way of information that would lend itself to making a decision like:
"If I want an amplifier for this particular application, I can build a chip amp for it..."
"...but if I want an amplifier for this particular application, I can't build a chip amp for it... and I can't tweak a chip amp to serve that purpose either. I'm going to need to look to look elsewhere."
It's that sort of information.
Really, learning the boundaries, what can, and can't be done with chip amps.
I love your analogy to hot-rodding engines!
There have to be tangible limits... in the usual terms... output power, impedance stability, distortion, etc... and ways to manipulate them.
Just like hot rodding an engine. The parts will only take so much stress... or might be applicable only for a specific sort of application...
An engine builder knows what the limitations of the parts are, and what sort of HP to expect given a certain combination of parts.
They wouldn't randomly throw parts together, into an engine block, and then dyno test it, hoping both that it doesn't blow up, and that it also reaches the desired HP target.
That's luck, not design.
I wish you the best of health, god bless you!ron clarke said:
I really appreciate your input, particularly given the effort.
It's great to see that you are still enthused, still reading.
Yes and no...GregGC said:
Yes, I appreciate it, and I fully agree it's likely my best, most logical first project.
I think what people are missing, is that I have numerous potential applications that I could dream up, that I could (or could not?) build one of these things for.
But at this point, I don't know if for any unique applications, one of these might be feasible or not.
Ultimately, that's what I want to learn.
It would have been VERY easy for me, if I just came on here and said:
"Hey, I've got this one pair of fullrange speakers that I'd love to build an amp for!"
I think that's most people's typical situation (unfortunately for me
), hence the misunderstanding."why would this guy want to learn the limitations of a gainclone?"
But yes, building a standard amp for a stereo pair of 8 ohm loudspeakers probably is my best move, I'm with you there.
Geolemon,
I think that you ask quite a lot! The theory around amplifiers and audio equipment in general is quite complex. I think nobody can exactly predict the complex interactions between sound sources, amplifiers, speakers, air and most important humans! Besides the theory, taste is also an important matter. Even the most educated people can not exactly predict the perceived sound quality of a certain system. I understand that you want to know more about the fundamentals of opamp amplifiers. That's a good thing, but you'll have to do a lot of research by yourself too, in order to find the answers.
Many people think that designing amplifiers is only a matter of math, electrotechnical knowledge, simulation and good design (and measuring). I think that's too short-sighted, because in the end the human perception of music is the most relevant. Possibly, some forms of distortion or smoothing of signals deliver a higher level of satisfaction of the listener. (actually, that must be the case as many systems sound slow&muddy...)
Even if the audio system would be perfectly adopted to the listener, there is also a matter of software. Some CD's are recorded well, some are gritty, distorted, clipped, colored etc. A certain processing of the sound could therefore potentially improve the listenability and realism of that material! I could talk for many pages about factors that in the end will influence the perceived quality of the sound system.
I hope you're still with me here... ;-)
Let's come to a conclusion. In my opinion, the perceived quality of audio equipment is hard to predict. It is therefore beneficial to use the information presented on these forums (and reviews of professional equipment) to speed up the development of your audio project. I think you decided to build an amplifier based on IC's. You'll need a starting point, a reference in order to find what sort of an amplifier you'll like. So build a simple gainclone and find out how you like it. Choose a chip, compare datasheets and opinions about the chips. If you're not satisfied iterate to the next design step.
You can start with my homepage about gainclones: www.fedde.tk
Regrettably, the information is a bit outdated. These days, I prefer non-inverted gainclones. Hopefully, I have finished a new gainclone page next month!!!
Good luck with your gainclone adventures,
Fedde
I think that you ask quite a lot! The theory around amplifiers and audio equipment in general is quite complex. I think nobody can exactly predict the complex interactions between sound sources, amplifiers, speakers, air and most important humans! Besides the theory, taste is also an important matter. Even the most educated people can not exactly predict the perceived sound quality of a certain system. I understand that you want to know more about the fundamentals of opamp amplifiers. That's a good thing, but you'll have to do a lot of research by yourself too, in order to find the answers.
Many people think that designing amplifiers is only a matter of math, electrotechnical knowledge, simulation and good design (and measuring). I think that's too short-sighted, because in the end the human perception of music is the most relevant. Possibly, some forms of distortion or smoothing of signals deliver a higher level of satisfaction of the listener. (actually, that must be the case as many systems sound slow&muddy...)
Even if the audio system would be perfectly adopted to the listener, there is also a matter of software. Some CD's are recorded well, some are gritty, distorted, clipped, colored etc. A certain processing of the sound could therefore potentially improve the listenability and realism of that material! I could talk for many pages about factors that in the end will influence the perceived quality of the sound system.
I hope you're still with me here... ;-)
Let's come to a conclusion. In my opinion, the perceived quality of audio equipment is hard to predict. It is therefore beneficial to use the information presented on these forums (and reviews of professional equipment) to speed up the development of your audio project. I think you decided to build an amplifier based on IC's. You'll need a starting point, a reference in order to find what sort of an amplifier you'll like. So build a simple gainclone and find out how you like it. Choose a chip, compare datasheets and opinions about the chips. If you're not satisfied iterate to the next design step.
You can start with my homepage about gainclones: www.fedde.tk
Regrettably, the information is a bit outdated. These days, I prefer non-inverted gainclones. Hopefully, I have finished a new gainclone page next month!!!
Good luck with your gainclone adventures,
Fedde
Geolemon -
If you want to learn the fundamentals, start from the beginning.
First, don't bother with understanding everything in the circuit. Make sure you research exactly what an op-amp does and how it functions. Without this you will have no grasp on how the circuit works. If you look in any EE book with op-amps in it, they will show you the basic inverted gain clone schematic. It is not a NEW circuit, it has been around longer than me.
After you understand op-amp theory make sure you understand how a basic power supply works.
Coming here and asking how everything works at once is like asking "why is shakespeare's writing intriguing?" at a literary conference.
- Brent
If you want to learn the fundamentals, start from the beginning.
First, don't bother with understanding everything in the circuit. Make sure you research exactly what an op-amp does and how it functions. Without this you will have no grasp on how the circuit works. If you look in any EE book with op-amps in it, they will show you the basic inverted gain clone schematic. It is not a NEW circuit, it has been around longer than me.
After you understand op-amp theory make sure you understand how a basic power supply works.
Coming here and asking how everything works at once is like asking "why is shakespeare's writing intriguing?" at a literary conference.
- Brent
And asking such a question at a literary conference would likely result in a great many varied learned answers. Some answers will shed light others may not. It wouldnt be all that useful to tell the guy to go and get some shakespeare read it and find out for himself
I am intrigued how some reply to a post in these forums without answering the question that is put. If those replying dont have an answer then dont answer........... is that not reasonable?
Come to think of it ,so far ,this post fits into the category ive just described
Lets see if we can amend the situation
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23353
is an excellent thread started by gregc , plenty of schematics,
differring component values, pictures , opinion on sound
Or this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22320 for something similar
or this http://members.ozemail.com.au/~lisaras for a wide ranging discussion of the GC and a design for a tube buffer to boot
or read Peter Daniels posts on his designs which over the months have gradually become ultra minimalist , an example http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23219
I am intrigued how some reply to a post in these forums without answering the question that is put. If those replying dont have an answer then dont answer........... is that not reasonable?
Come to think of it ,so far ,this post fits into the category ive just described
Lets see if we can amend the situation
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23353
is an excellent thread started by gregc , plenty of schematics,
differring component values, pictures , opinion on sound
Or this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22320 for something similar
or this http://members.ozemail.com.au/~lisaras for a wide ranging discussion of the GC and a design for a tube buffer to boot
or read Peter Daniels posts on his designs which over the months have gradually become ultra minimalist , an example http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23219
I love hi-fi DIY and I love psychology. That's why I am spending far to much time on this forum!
Are the fundemantals of chip amp design any different from any other amplifier? After all, as has already been pointed out, an opamp is just an amplifier circuit which has been miniaturised.
This is essentially a hobby forum, not an open university site. I hope that all of us are here to have a bit of fun, albeit furthering our knowledge of DIY hi-fi in the process.
Geolemon, I think that you must have mis-spent your youth, not in a pool hall but in that lovely old library you have in Buffalo!
Listen to the advice here based on experience , it will take you much further than any amount of fundemental theory. Or at least build one to listen to while you do more research. You may find while listening that the theory assumes a more realistic degree of importance.
Are the fundemantals of chip amp design any different from any other amplifier? After all, as has already been pointed out, an opamp is just an amplifier circuit which has been miniaturised.
This is essentially a hobby forum, not an open university site. I hope that all of us are here to have a bit of fun, albeit furthering our knowledge of DIY hi-fi in the process.
Geolemon, I think that you must have mis-spent your youth, not in a pool hall but in that lovely old library you have in Buffalo!
Listen to the advice here based on experience , it will take you much further than any amount of fundemental theory. Or at least build one to listen to while you do more research. You may find while listening that the theory assumes a more realistic degree of importance.
A good book for free... if you don't print it on paper... 464 pages
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/slod006b/slod006b.pdf
You could also get Mr. Walt Jung's excellent books, Opamp cookbook for instance.
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/slod006b/slod006b.pdf
You could also get Mr. Walt Jung's excellent books, Opamp cookbook for instance.
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