Hi,
In my experience fuses most certainly do have an effect on sonics in audio equipment, and (so far!) I have not seen that they have ever improved the sound.
Many years ago, I carried out a lot of listening trials, initially on a DIY dual mono power amp, which originally had fuses everywhere.
On the mains input, 4 immediately after the twin transformers (on the secondaries), one in each of the 4 PS rails on both mono amp boards (8 in total), and one on each mono output.
I began with soldering the 4 PS rail fuses directly to the holders with short wire links to overcome any bad contact problems on one channel only, to see what effect this had. I had previously cleaned and treated all of the amp's fuses and holders with Caig's Cramolin (nowadays called Pro-Gold), the finest contact cleaner/enhancer I am aware of.
I didn't even need to make careful comparisons with the un-modified channel, which was my original intention, as the differences were so obvious. Making many subsequent comparisons merely confirmed what was already so clear to me.
Next, I soldered links across the fuseholders (bypassing the fuse entirely) and this improvement was even more marked, and was noticeably better than the (by then) part-modified second channel, where I had merely soldered the fuses' ends directly to the holders.
I then looked at the output fuses (also under a magnifying glass) and to my surprise, on music peaks the inner wire could be seen to wriggle about within the glass tube, presumably as a result of excessive heat being generated! Also, the wire looked crystalline and very rough and pitted along its surface, unlike the smooth and shiny appearance of new fuses of the same type. These fuses had only been in use for a matter of some months.
When I soldered a link directly across these output fuses there was another worthwhile improvement in the sound.
By this time all fuses after the transformer secondaries had been eliminated, so I went to work on these secondary fuses using the same '2-stage' method. Perhaps unsurprisingly, similar (but lesser in degree) improvements were noted.
Finally, I replaced the (single) mains input fuse with a combined switch/circuit breaker, and, once again, thought this extra expense was justified by the benefits, although it was certainly not a day and night change here.
This was maybe nearly 20 yrs ago, and since then I have improved many other items 'sonically' which have come my way in a similar fashion, but lower powered items like pre-amps & tuners etc. don't appear to benefit to quite the same degree as the higher current items. However, never once did I not end up absolutely convinced that removing any fuse, anywhere, was of some benefit to the sound, and I will not now use fuses anywhere deliberately, unless there is simply no alternative.
Of course, there are serious safety issues which should not be ignored, but according to the UK Fire Service, they have not recorded a single case where a serious fire has ever been started by audio equipment failures. After all, there is not normally much in such equipment which is very combustible, and mostly it will reside within metal cases, anyway.
Actually, I would prefer to eliminate all mains input 'protection' as well, as I don't doubt that this would be a further benefit, but this would not be recommendable, in view of the dangers involved, and I find circuit breakers to be a reasonable (if a little expensive) compromise.
In my experience fuses most certainly do have an effect on sonics in audio equipment, and (so far!) I have not seen that they have ever improved the sound.
Many years ago, I carried out a lot of listening trials, initially on a DIY dual mono power amp, which originally had fuses everywhere.
On the mains input, 4 immediately after the twin transformers (on the secondaries), one in each of the 4 PS rails on both mono amp boards (8 in total), and one on each mono output.
I began with soldering the 4 PS rail fuses directly to the holders with short wire links to overcome any bad contact problems on one channel only, to see what effect this had. I had previously cleaned and treated all of the amp's fuses and holders with Caig's Cramolin (nowadays called Pro-Gold), the finest contact cleaner/enhancer I am aware of.
I didn't even need to make careful comparisons with the un-modified channel, which was my original intention, as the differences were so obvious. Making many subsequent comparisons merely confirmed what was already so clear to me.
Next, I soldered links across the fuseholders (bypassing the fuse entirely) and this improvement was even more marked, and was noticeably better than the (by then) part-modified second channel, where I had merely soldered the fuses' ends directly to the holders.
I then looked at the output fuses (also under a magnifying glass) and to my surprise, on music peaks the inner wire could be seen to wriggle about within the glass tube, presumably as a result of excessive heat being generated! Also, the wire looked crystalline and very rough and pitted along its surface, unlike the smooth and shiny appearance of new fuses of the same type. These fuses had only been in use for a matter of some months.
When I soldered a link directly across these output fuses there was another worthwhile improvement in the sound.
By this time all fuses after the transformer secondaries had been eliminated, so I went to work on these secondary fuses using the same '2-stage' method. Perhaps unsurprisingly, similar (but lesser in degree) improvements were noted.
Finally, I replaced the (single) mains input fuse with a combined switch/circuit breaker, and, once again, thought this extra expense was justified by the benefits, although it was certainly not a day and night change here.
This was maybe nearly 20 yrs ago, and since then I have improved many other items 'sonically' which have come my way in a similar fashion, but lower powered items like pre-amps & tuners etc. don't appear to benefit to quite the same degree as the higher current items. However, never once did I not end up absolutely convinced that removing any fuse, anywhere, was of some benefit to the sound, and I will not now use fuses anywhere deliberately, unless there is simply no alternative.
Of course, there are serious safety issues which should not be ignored, but according to the UK Fire Service, they have not recorded a single case where a serious fire has ever been started by audio equipment failures. After all, there is not normally much in such equipment which is very combustible, and mostly it will reside within metal cases, anyway.
Actually, I would prefer to eliminate all mains input 'protection' as well, as I don't doubt that this would be a further benefit, but this would not be recommendable, in view of the dangers involved, and I find circuit breakers to be a reasonable (if a little expensive) compromise.
Hi Beppe,
You are very welcome, and I'm glad you found this of some use.
I have been 'listening' to components used in electronics for over 30 yrs. now, and although there are very few real surprises in what I discover nowadays, I still learn something new on occasions.
I am always happy to share what I have discovered, but don't much care for the silly 'nay-sayers' who are simply too lazy to try out some of these things for themselves, and are attempting to impress others with their apparently superior knowledge.
Instead of arguing from theory, or whatever, they should just overcome their prejudices and patiently try out some of these things personally, or keep their 'guesses' to themselves.
Of all the thousands of listening tests/trials I have carried out, the success rate was often very poor to begin with, due to my inexperience, but it has improved with time, and my techniques have got a lot better as well.
Regrettably, few people seem to have the patience and determination to do these trials for any worthwhile length of time, which I can well understand, as they can be extremely boring and often tiring to carry out.
However, after all, the only sensible arbiter when considering reproduced sound (IMHO), is to *listen to the results* and (in any contest between one component or another, or whether to leave the part out altogether) choose what sounds closest to the original sound which is being reproduced.
Comparisons being made directly between two channels is also vey revealing, but no two speakers/amps/cables etc combination will ever sound *exactly* the same, so you do need to swap the parts around from time to time, so as not to end up with cheating yourself. Try to sit the two speakers together in the middle of the room to reduce any unwanted room colouration differences, as well.
Generally, it is not a good idea to merely make a change one way (except for say the fuse issue, which was so positive) and it is much more reliable if you can change back and forth many times, for certainty's sake. By far the very best way, is to live with and become accustomed to the latest change you made for some weeks, and then put things back to how they were before. Then, if it definitely sounds worse than immediately before this reversion, you can be certain you have made the right choice, which will be further confirmed when you put it back again.
Additionally, never be tempted to save time by carrying out more than one *fundamental* change at one time. This is frought with dificulties as you will not know for certain which change has been responsible for what (if any!) effects, and two changes can be either additive to different degrees, or even tend to cancel each other out.
Also, I do go to live concerts whenever I can, and this is the only real yardstick as far as I am concerned.
Some comparisons can occupy months of my spare time, before I am certain over the choices to make, and many times there has been no overall satisfactory outcome, regrettably. You just have to live with this as part of the learning process.
However, with the fuses issue, the results were so immediate and positive, and have been reinforced on numerous occasions in the intervening years, that this was one of least taxing, and most beneficial, trials I have undertaken.
Most commercial equipment manufacturers are almost forced to put fuses everywhere, partly to avoid higher repair costs if anything were to go wrong, and any chance of actions being taken against them. Unfortunately, the average Joe doesn't understand that such equipment needs a certain degree of care being taken with it, and many times output fuses have saved some careless user's amp from being fried when he/she shorted the outputs while installing speakers.
As DIY'ers, we can be more careful, and repair costs are usually neglible by comparison as our time costs us nothing, even if something untoward does occur.
You are right to note the caution on safety, though, as seriously compromising this for any sonic improvement, is simply reckless, and not necessary.
Regards,
You are very welcome, and I'm glad you found this of some use.
I have been 'listening' to components used in electronics for over 30 yrs. now, and although there are very few real surprises in what I discover nowadays, I still learn something new on occasions.
I am always happy to share what I have discovered, but don't much care for the silly 'nay-sayers' who are simply too lazy to try out some of these things for themselves, and are attempting to impress others with their apparently superior knowledge.
Instead of arguing from theory, or whatever, they should just overcome their prejudices and patiently try out some of these things personally, or keep their 'guesses' to themselves.
Of all the thousands of listening tests/trials I have carried out, the success rate was often very poor to begin with, due to my inexperience, but it has improved with time, and my techniques have got a lot better as well.
Regrettably, few people seem to have the patience and determination to do these trials for any worthwhile length of time, which I can well understand, as they can be extremely boring and often tiring to carry out.
However, after all, the only sensible arbiter when considering reproduced sound (IMHO), is to *listen to the results* and (in any contest between one component or another, or whether to leave the part out altogether) choose what sounds closest to the original sound which is being reproduced.
Comparisons being made directly between two channels is also vey revealing, but no two speakers/amps/cables etc combination will ever sound *exactly* the same, so you do need to swap the parts around from time to time, so as not to end up with cheating yourself. Try to sit the two speakers together in the middle of the room to reduce any unwanted room colouration differences, as well.
Generally, it is not a good idea to merely make a change one way (except for say the fuse issue, which was so positive) and it is much more reliable if you can change back and forth many times, for certainty's sake. By far the very best way, is to live with and become accustomed to the latest change you made for some weeks, and then put things back to how they were before. Then, if it definitely sounds worse than immediately before this reversion, you can be certain you have made the right choice, which will be further confirmed when you put it back again.
Additionally, never be tempted to save time by carrying out more than one *fundamental* change at one time. This is frought with dificulties as you will not know for certain which change has been responsible for what (if any!) effects, and two changes can be either additive to different degrees, or even tend to cancel each other out.
Also, I do go to live concerts whenever I can, and this is the only real yardstick as far as I am concerned.
Some comparisons can occupy months of my spare time, before I am certain over the choices to make, and many times there has been no overall satisfactory outcome, regrettably. You just have to live with this as part of the learning process.
However, with the fuses issue, the results were so immediate and positive, and have been reinforced on numerous occasions in the intervening years, that this was one of least taxing, and most beneficial, trials I have undertaken.
Most commercial equipment manufacturers are almost forced to put fuses everywhere, partly to avoid higher repair costs if anything were to go wrong, and any chance of actions being taken against them. Unfortunately, the average Joe doesn't understand that such equipment needs a certain degree of care being taken with it, and many times output fuses have saved some careless user's amp from being fried when he/she shorted the outputs while installing speakers.
As DIY'ers, we can be more careful, and repair costs are usually neglible by comparison as our time costs us nothing, even if something untoward does occur.
You are right to note the caution on safety, though, as seriously compromising this for any sonic improvement, is simply reckless, and not necessary.
Regards,
Upupa Epops said:
That is exactly what I meant when I wwrote that fuses protect from fires. Also, having seen several transformers and untold numbers of power transistors to fuse 'replacements', I would be weary to trust a fuse in the power supply primary. Particulairly when I remember an occasion when a set of plastic power transistors literally became fireballs, and another where a piece of furniture literally caught fire as a result of a transformer 'cooking'.
Of course I did not imply that fuses are there primaiirly to avoid these occurences, but that certainly can be one of their major roles.
Eva said:
Having seen this and 'fought it in the field' far be it from me to disaproove. This is why I meantioned 'the wrong type of fuse'. Some fuses employ alloys which have a very high and very nonlinear PTC, unlike copper. Still, the effect is often an order of magnitude lower than that of a bad fuseholder.
BTW, it is often APPALING how bad speakers are constructed when it comes to thermal management. A few ccm more iron, or heaven forbid aluminium or copper rings in strategic places tend to command an incredible price premium. At the same time, space age membrane materials and glues that they always brag about in the catalouges of speaker manufacturers, seem to cost very little...
Bobken said:Hi Beppe,
- Dear Sir,
first of all please excuse my misuse of the English language.
I am trying to improve anyway.
Then sincerely I have to say that the more I read your words the more I appreciate your expertise and philosophy.
A lot of your statements give food for thought.
What still amazes me is that given the very bad impact on sound fuses are still used as protection device in a trivial way.
I think it is very well clear that their influence is just unacceptable in an audio amp, expecially in the places you very well mention.
Let me please take advantage of your kindness and expertise to put you some other question.
> You are very welcome, and I'm glad you found this of some use.
I have been 'listening' to components used in electronics for over 30 yrs. now, and although there are very few real surprises in what I discover nowadays, I still learn something new on occasions.
- I am completely with you when you say "listening" as the final test. The aim must be always the faithful reproduction of a musical event. I am comparing it to a virtual reality experience.
For me when I find an equipment that "should" sound acceptable and it is unacceptable actually, I start to think "why?".
For instance this power amp I have at hand.
Nice toroidal, nice caps, 3 pairs of 10A bjts/channel.
No frequency limiting filters along the signal path.
How could the bass response be so weak?
Then I looked at the glass fuses.
Those tiny wires inside seemed to me, by instinct, something of unsuitable to let amperes flow freely.
As I said just cleaning with isopropyl alchol the ends worked fine.
I cannot even imagine what level of improvements could give shorting them (and after your very valuable words I am very very optimistic).
> I am always happy to share what I have discovered,
- an this is very kind of you. Thank you sincerely !
> but don't much care for the silly 'nay-sayers' who are simply too lazy to try out some of these things for themselves,
- sometimes this activity asks for time, space and money.
Is not that easy if this is not the primary occupation.
I for instance have no space to prectice it.
Maybe one day when I will get back my liberty from the job.
I truly think that rescuing old audio equipment could be my main hobby.
> and are attempting to impress others with their apparently superior knowledge.
Instead of arguing from theory, or whatever, they should just overcome their prejudices and patiently try out some of these things personally, or keep their 'guesses' to themselves.
- nevertheless I have noticed that the very talented audio designers usually have a very "cautious" approach to problems, they never understimated them, they have no prejudices.
And the quality of their creations is always evident to an educated hear through, as you have very well said, final listening tests.
They deserve indeed a great esteem because they do well.
Then there is theory.
For me theory should be always the base.
I have to confess that I tried to improve in theory readind books of electronics but I failed.
When I see a schematic I think of it as the product of a superior mind.
Actually I am not able to calculate even a single bjt buffer !
> Of all the thousands of listening tests/trials I have carried out, the success rate was often very poor to begin with, due to my inexperience, but it has improved with time, and my techniques have got a lot better as well.
- And now is when I would like to take advantage of your exceptional expertise.
But maybe you can imagine what I am going to ask you.
Yes, I would like very kindly to ask a your recommended equipment list among those you have experience with, i.e. the equipment that you liked most.
If you prefer I could contact you privately.
For instance I would like very much to know how is arranged your reference listening system.
But if you do not have time no problem.
I do not want to create you any problem.
> Regrettably, few people seem to have the patience and determination to do these trials for any worthwhile length of time, which I can well understand, as they can be extremely boring and often tiring to carry out.
- Maybe also the personal situations (family problems, job, shortage of money, etc.) play a role in this.
For me trying any kind of audio equipment would be always entertaining, but I have no space to do it.
Just a little room I have transformed in a poor laboratory.
And my mother is not that happy for this. So I have to face some practical probem.
> However, after all, the only sensible arbiter when considering reproduced sound (IMHO), is to *listen to the results* and (in any contest between one component or another, or whether to leave the part out altogether) choose what sounds closest to the original sound which is being reproduced.
- Completely true. What is good should sound good. And viceversa of course.
> Comparisons being made directly between two channels is also vey revealing, but no two speakers/amps/cables etc combination will ever sound *exactly* the same, so you do need to swap the parts around from time to time, so as not to end up with cheating yourself.
...
- When I listening to a system with a well known recording I realize almost immediately if it is a good system or not.
It is something like tasting a wine, a song is enough.
If the system fails to transmit the emotional content of the recording it is bad.
> Also, I do go to live concerts whenever I can, and this is the only real yardstick as far as I am concerned.
- Well I had the occasion to listen a track of chamber music ( I have never gone to a chamber music concert) with a really good system. It was just a very enjoyable experience.
I mean, maybe I am not looking for the ultimate fidelity, I am looking for pleasure.
> Some comparisons can occupy months of my spare time, before I am certain over the choices to make, and many times there has been no overall satisfactory outcome, regrettably.
You just have to live with this as part of the learning process.
- You should definitely give me a list of your most wanted audio equipment (by the way I listen only to CDs)
> However, with the fuses issue, the results were so immediate and positive, and have been reinforced on numerous occasions in the intervening years, that this was one of least taxing, and most beneficial, trials I have undertaken.
- I am already sold on this.
> Most commercial equipment manufacturers are almost forced to put fuses everywhere, partly to avoid higher repair costs if anything were to go wrong, and any chance of actions being taken against them.
Unfortunately, the average Joe doesn't understand that such equipment needs a certain degree of care being taken with it, and many times output fuses have saved some careless user's amp from being fried when he/she shorted the outputs while installing speakers.
- I think you have hit the points very well.
They want to make a product completely safe for the unexperienced user.
But a protection system that influences so badly the sound still remains unacceptable IMHO.
They have to develop a more "elegant" system than placing fuses all over without any consideration.
> As DIY'ers, we can be more careful, and repair costs are usually neglible by comparison as our time costs us nothing, even if something untoward does occur.
You are right to note the caution on safety, though, as seriously compromising this for any sonic improvement, is simply reckless, and not necessary.
Regards,
- today I found a review in audio mag of a commercial power amp.
This power amp has actually rail fuses on each channel volatge rails.
The tester blew the rail fuses during testing the amp's continuos output into a 2 ohms load.
So it is clear that an amp without fuses deserves a little more attention by the user.
But I am sure that the gain in pleasure coming from a much better music reproduction could convince me in listening without fuses (maybe having a fire-extinguisher at hand eh, eh, eh).
Dear Mr Bob,
talking with you is very useful for me and above all very enjoyable indeed.
As you can very well see from my posts I am trying to understand some basic concepts.
If I were smarter I would have studied to be an audio designer, as I like this hobby just too much.
Or maybe I am just a person who loves well reproduced music.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe
Would it be safely said that the more 'contact points' introduced could or has the potential to deteriorate the sound? As each extra 'contact point' has resistance and the opportunity to get dirty, thus a degradation of the sound. Would this be correct?
For me, in my DIYed amps and all other components that I use, I replace the fuses in the sockets that goes to the wall outlet with either a 4 amp or 5 amp fuse, and do away with fuses after that point, and on / off switches in my DIYed components. Would this be a good balanced stance to take in that it protects any surge coming from the mains (safety issues), but reduces or eliminates the number of contact points to the component after that stage. Is this safe enough? BTW, our standard plugs comes with a 13amp fuse which I believe is not going to help much if there is a surge coming from the wall sockets. Please comment.... most interested to learn.
Thanks.
For me, in my DIYed amps and all other components that I use, I replace the fuses in the sockets that goes to the wall outlet with either a 4 amp or 5 amp fuse, and do away with fuses after that point, and on / off switches in my DIYed components. Would this be a good balanced stance to take in that it protects any surge coming from the mains (safety issues), but reduces or eliminates the number of contact points to the component after that stage. Is this safe enough? BTW, our standard plugs comes with a 13amp fuse which I believe is not going to help much if there is a surge coming from the wall sockets. Please comment.... most interested to learn.
Thanks.
The idea isn't to account for surges, but to cut off the supply if too much current is drawn.
5A at mains voltage (whether 110, 240 or somewhere in between) is still plenty enough to start a fire. Don't forget that the fuse rating is the current it will pass , not its rupture current.
Your approach is OK, provided you fit a fuse of properly calculated rating, and have a ready means of switching the current off in case of a fault.
Fuses and listening trials
Hi Beppe,
I will do my best to answer your various queries, but perhaps you will appreciate it will take me some time as there are very few short responses which will be of much help to you.
If you can be patient for a day or so, I will respond to you, you may rest assured.
Hi Safetyman,
Your questions are quicker to deal with, and the answer to the first para. is (in my experience) certainly yes, you are absolutely right here, and the effects are cumulative.
In my own case, I went to a deal of trouble and cost to install a bespoke mains wiring set-up in my listening room a few years ago. This has its own dedicated Consumer Unit/Distribution Board with 8 separate 'ports' feeding the various socket outlets I use for my system, and this installation provided some very worthwhile benefits to the sound.
In doing this, I eliminated all fuses in the entire set-up, and I deliberately used only individual MCBs in the Consumer Unit/Distribution Board, in place of any fuses.
However, initially I also used a single RCD (10mA, IIRC) at the inlet to this board, for safety's sake, but had read somewhere that these were not good for sonics. This is mainly because they have a fine coil of wire in series with the two mains cables (L & N), with these coils being wrapped around a toroid core for the current-sensing to ground, in order to 'fire' the protection if there is an earth leakage fault.
Having realised that in other situations I didn't care at all for what ferrite toroids did to the overall sound when applied to mains cables (as frequently recommended!), and bearing in mind the resistance and inductance which would be inevitable with such an RCD, I eventually replaced it with a straightforward double-pole switch which I had in stock.
I was very pleased and perhaps a little surprised at the differences this simple change alone made to the sound of my system, but, of course it must be remembered that it did affect all of my various pieces of equipment (front-end, pre-amp, main amps etc.) at the same time.
Somehow, I don't care for what fuses do to the sound anywhere, so, as I said before, I will only now use them if there is simply no alternative.
It seems to me that it is also important to keep the mains impedance as low and clean as possible, and these matters do make a substantial difference, overall.
On the other hand, I have purchased dozens of ferrites to clip around mains cables, and two mains 'cleaners/purifiers', one of which is transformer-coupled. However, in the end, and after many weeks of diligent listening trials, I just did not like the overall effect which any of these devices had on my system.
Regards,
Hi Beppe,
I will do my best to answer your various queries, but perhaps you will appreciate it will take me some time as there are very few short responses which will be of much help to you.
If you can be patient for a day or so, I will respond to you, you may rest assured.
Hi Safetyman,
Your questions are quicker to deal with, and the answer to the first para. is (in my experience) certainly yes, you are absolutely right here, and the effects are cumulative.
In my own case, I went to a deal of trouble and cost to install a bespoke mains wiring set-up in my listening room a few years ago. This has its own dedicated Consumer Unit/Distribution Board with 8 separate 'ports' feeding the various socket outlets I use for my system, and this installation provided some very worthwhile benefits to the sound.
In doing this, I eliminated all fuses in the entire set-up, and I deliberately used only individual MCBs in the Consumer Unit/Distribution Board, in place of any fuses.
However, initially I also used a single RCD (10mA, IIRC) at the inlet to this board, for safety's sake, but had read somewhere that these were not good for sonics. This is mainly because they have a fine coil of wire in series with the two mains cables (L & N), with these coils being wrapped around a toroid core for the current-sensing to ground, in order to 'fire' the protection if there is an earth leakage fault.
Having realised that in other situations I didn't care at all for what ferrite toroids did to the overall sound when applied to mains cables (as frequently recommended!), and bearing in mind the resistance and inductance which would be inevitable with such an RCD, I eventually replaced it with a straightforward double-pole switch which I had in stock.
I was very pleased and perhaps a little surprised at the differences this simple change alone made to the sound of my system, but, of course it must be remembered that it did affect all of my various pieces of equipment (front-end, pre-amp, main amps etc.) at the same time.
Somehow, I don't care for what fuses do to the sound anywhere, so, as I said before, I will only now use them if there is simply no alternative.
It seems to me that it is also important to keep the mains impedance as low and clean as possible, and these matters do make a substantial difference, overall.
On the other hand, I have purchased dozens of ferrites to clip around mains cables, and two mains 'cleaners/purifiers', one of which is transformer-coupled. However, in the end, and after many weeks of diligent listening trials, I just did not like the overall effect which any of these devices had on my system.
Regards,
Re: Fuses and listening trials
Bobken said:
1) Hi Beppe, I will do my best to answer your various queries, but perhaps you will appreciate it will take me some time as there are very few short responses which will be of much help to you.
- Dear Sir, thank you so much for your always kind and valuable support.
2) If you can be patient for a day or so, I will respond to you, you may rest assured.
- Please take all the time you need.
As I said I am very interested about your actual set-up and audio equipment you have found particularly well performing during the time.
Thank you so much for your extremely kind and helpful advice.
Kind regards,
beppe
Regards,
Hi beppe,
I said I would come back with some comments which I hoped would be of interest to you, but until your last post in this thread, I didn't appreciate that you were more interested in my personal set-up in my own listening room and what equipment I have found to perform the best over time.
Frankly, I don't think that most of these details will be of much help to you here, as everything is 'bespoke' and tailored to suit my circumstances, and my own preferences.
Almost all of the equipment I presently use (and have done) has been made by me, or very substantially modified by me, over many years of DIY activity. Some details can be found in my several posts, recently to Safetyman in this thread and in the "JLH 80W Mosfet power amp - modifying it" thread, which are just some examples.
My approach has always been one of evolution rather than revolution, and I don't constantly change the major pieces of audio equipment I use for domestic listening. What I prefer to do is to continually improve the gear I already have and am very familiar with, until it is as good as I feel is possible, and only then if I still feel that this area is the limiting factor overall in the system, will I consider a new design or (very rarely!) a purchase.
Continually re-arranging everything for no good reason or even replacing any components in the chain, is not very helpful in achieving my goals, I have found, and it often makes matters worse because there is a loss of continuity/familiarity and it is not always immediately clear just what these changes have achieved. Sometimes in the past, even many months later I have discovered some downsides, which had not been immediately apparent, and these can offset the potential gains I had hoped to achieve.
Merely working in one area of a piece of equipment, generally allows me to notice any changes (good, or bad!) quite readily, positively, and quickly, and, in spite of what many would have you believe, the performance of most audio equipment will also rather inconveniently change (possibly by not very much) with it being in use for a week or two. This may not be measurable, but nevertheless it exists, believe me.
My audio 'progress' has been an iterative situation as far as I am concerned, and when I have made some gains in one specific area, it will frequently allow me to hear some problems elsewhere, which were previously masked by poorer performance there. Everything in the chain matters, and I rarely make any mods nowadays, without being clear in my mind that there is some difference overall to the final sound. Whether the changes I hear are good or bad, is another matter, of course, and you do need to be strict with yourself in assessing whether or not the change should be retained.
Unfortunately, it is all to easy to pretend that something is an improvement when the mods are difficult to carry out, or take a long time, and maybe the new parts are costly or whatever, but no real progress can be made this way. Unless I am absolutely certain that over a period of time the latest change is an overall improvement, I always put things back to how they were, disappointing though this may be.
As I said elsewhere, my techniques have improved over some 35 years, and in the early years I made a lot of hasty decisions, and some consequential mistakes. For example, when carrying out a mod, normally you will need to disconnect some parts of the set-up, which might not have been disturbed for some time. Simply the act of re-making these connections (like speaker leads, or interconnects) will tend to 'clean' their junctions and will frequently provide some improvement in itself, and this can lead to unwittingly deceiving one's self that the mod just made was responsible for the small gain which was observed.
It is therfore important to 'live with the change' for a while, and reverse it several times, before finally judging the effectiveness, and this also takes into account (to some extent) that one does become more accustomed to any set-up over time, and this then becomes a something of a 'yardstick' which can work both ways, if one is not careful. Some commentators say that 'burning in' is a myth, because it always seems to improve the sound, which seems illogical to them, and conveniently suits their argument. I don't agree here at all, and sometimes I will perhaps notice something possibly slightly disagreable to begin with, and as time goes by it appears to get much worse until I can no longer put up with it.
Most electro-mechanical devices do appear to smooth out with some use in my experience, and components like caps etc., do change significantly 'soundwise', especially Blackgates, for example.
Just look at the recent thread on ATC speakers and 'burn in' effects, to hear what many speaker manufacturers know about this phenomenon, and you will see that almost all will agree with some 'burn in' changes. Regrettably, I don't know *all* of the causes of any such changes, but this doesn't negate the fact that they exist, and I will never finally judge anything in audio, nowadays, until it has been in use for a suitable length of time.
The best method I have found is to make any changes/mods back and forth several times (allowing for some time to settle in etc.) and then when a choice is finally made, live with this for some weeks so that you are (almost?) as familiar with this as you were with the set-up prior to this change. Then, if you reverse the mod, and it does seem noticeably worse, you can replace the latest parts or whatever, fairly safe in the knowledge that overall it does seem to be a worthwhile improvement, and that hopefully there are no obvious downsides awaiting you in a few weeks time.
I will always ultimately trust my ears, since it is these which I use to enjoy music with, and not test equipment. However, it has taken many years for me to gain this confidence, and as time has gone by and my test equipment has improved, rarely (assuming I can make a relevant measurement) has there been any real conflict here.
It may interest you to know that many (even most?) of my more significant improvements/findings have occurred quite by accident, when I have observed something which was not expected nor intuitive, generally whilst doing something else to the circuitry. At least in these cases you can be sure that there is no bias due to any anticipation, nor that you have imagined the results.
If I notice some unexpected change I will not ignore it for the sake of convenience, or whatever, but will investigate it until I am satisfied I fully understand the causes.
Quite a few sonic enhancements have been the result of good theory, but, similarly many theoretical improvements have not turned out to sound as good as I had expected and hoped for. Also, a lot of trials have been the result of something I have seen written somewhere else, or perhaps an idea sparked off by someone else and which I have tried out for myself to see (or hear!) what the effects might be.
I have never been reluctant to give something a go, but quite a lot of what I have seen from other people (especially with the advent of the Internet) has turned out not to work well for me, and I guess that many people will possibly make hasty judgements, or maybe will not spend the time in such careful appraisal of the results, before they wish to 'share' these ideas with others.
I was extremely fortunate in being a long-term friend of the late John Linsley Hood, who was my mentor for many years, and anything which people like himself, Nelson Pass, Jonathan Carr, John Curl and several others (too many to mention here) have to say can usually be taken as extremely reliable. However, most of them will simply not perhaps have the time to carry out such extensive listening trials as I have done, simply because they have commercial pressures to contend with, and families to feed etc.
Accordingly, over time I was able to show JLH, for example, that using certain components in his circuits did provide very worthwhile sonic improvements when applied to circuits which were well-designed in the first place, and this shows that some (many) benefits can be gained from a patient and careful listening approach.
Jonathan Carr does a lot of listening trials on components when optimising his designs, and the recent thread on the Blowtorch pre-amp, has shown how much trouble John Curl goes to in a similar manner.
However, personally I have never needed to make a living out of audio electronics, and when it is (mainly) a hobby it is a lot more fun and far less taxing with no real deadlines to market etc., and these other people have my admiration (and sympathy!) that they can produce such excellent-sounding designs, given the time at their disposal.
As with JLH who was one of the kindest and in reality most self-effacing gentlemen I have had the pleasure of knowing, I am also extremely impressed that they will share their thoughts with others so freely, and sincerely regret to see that several unscrupulous people will always appear to take advantage of this generosity.
Regards,
I said I would come back with some comments which I hoped would be of interest to you, but until your last post in this thread, I didn't appreciate that you were more interested in my personal set-up in my own listening room and what equipment I have found to perform the best over time.
Frankly, I don't think that most of these details will be of much help to you here, as everything is 'bespoke' and tailored to suit my circumstances, and my own preferences.
Almost all of the equipment I presently use (and have done) has been made by me, or very substantially modified by me, over many years of DIY activity. Some details can be found in my several posts, recently to Safetyman in this thread and in the "JLH 80W Mosfet power amp - modifying it" thread, which are just some examples.
My approach has always been one of evolution rather than revolution, and I don't constantly change the major pieces of audio equipment I use for domestic listening. What I prefer to do is to continually improve the gear I already have and am very familiar with, until it is as good as I feel is possible, and only then if I still feel that this area is the limiting factor overall in the system, will I consider a new design or (very rarely!) a purchase.
Continually re-arranging everything for no good reason or even replacing any components in the chain, is not very helpful in achieving my goals, I have found, and it often makes matters worse because there is a loss of continuity/familiarity and it is not always immediately clear just what these changes have achieved. Sometimes in the past, even many months later I have discovered some downsides, which had not been immediately apparent, and these can offset the potential gains I had hoped to achieve.
Merely working in one area of a piece of equipment, generally allows me to notice any changes (good, or bad!) quite readily, positively, and quickly, and, in spite of what many would have you believe, the performance of most audio equipment will also rather inconveniently change (possibly by not very much) with it being in use for a week or two. This may not be measurable, but nevertheless it exists, believe me.
My audio 'progress' has been an iterative situation as far as I am concerned, and when I have made some gains in one specific area, it will frequently allow me to hear some problems elsewhere, which were previously masked by poorer performance there. Everything in the chain matters, and I rarely make any mods nowadays, without being clear in my mind that there is some difference overall to the final sound. Whether the changes I hear are good or bad, is another matter, of course, and you do need to be strict with yourself in assessing whether or not the change should be retained.
Unfortunately, it is all to easy to pretend that something is an improvement when the mods are difficult to carry out, or take a long time, and maybe the new parts are costly or whatever, but no real progress can be made this way. Unless I am absolutely certain that over a period of time the latest change is an overall improvement, I always put things back to how they were, disappointing though this may be.
As I said elsewhere, my techniques have improved over some 35 years, and in the early years I made a lot of hasty decisions, and some consequential mistakes. For example, when carrying out a mod, normally you will need to disconnect some parts of the set-up, which might not have been disturbed for some time. Simply the act of re-making these connections (like speaker leads, or interconnects) will tend to 'clean' their junctions and will frequently provide some improvement in itself, and this can lead to unwittingly deceiving one's self that the mod just made was responsible for the small gain which was observed.
It is therfore important to 'live with the change' for a while, and reverse it several times, before finally judging the effectiveness, and this also takes into account (to some extent) that one does become more accustomed to any set-up over time, and this then becomes a something of a 'yardstick' which can work both ways, if one is not careful. Some commentators say that 'burning in' is a myth, because it always seems to improve the sound, which seems illogical to them, and conveniently suits their argument. I don't agree here at all, and sometimes I will perhaps notice something possibly slightly disagreable to begin with, and as time goes by it appears to get much worse until I can no longer put up with it.
Most electro-mechanical devices do appear to smooth out with some use in my experience, and components like caps etc., do change significantly 'soundwise', especially Blackgates, for example.
Just look at the recent thread on ATC speakers and 'burn in' effects, to hear what many speaker manufacturers know about this phenomenon, and you will see that almost all will agree with some 'burn in' changes. Regrettably, I don't know *all* of the causes of any such changes, but this doesn't negate the fact that they exist, and I will never finally judge anything in audio, nowadays, until it has been in use for a suitable length of time.
The best method I have found is to make any changes/mods back and forth several times (allowing for some time to settle in etc.) and then when a choice is finally made, live with this for some weeks so that you are (almost?) as familiar with this as you were with the set-up prior to this change. Then, if you reverse the mod, and it does seem noticeably worse, you can replace the latest parts or whatever, fairly safe in the knowledge that overall it does seem to be a worthwhile improvement, and that hopefully there are no obvious downsides awaiting you in a few weeks time.
I will always ultimately trust my ears, since it is these which I use to enjoy music with, and not test equipment. However, it has taken many years for me to gain this confidence, and as time has gone by and my test equipment has improved, rarely (assuming I can make a relevant measurement) has there been any real conflict here.
It may interest you to know that many (even most?) of my more significant improvements/findings have occurred quite by accident, when I have observed something which was not expected nor intuitive, generally whilst doing something else to the circuitry. At least in these cases you can be sure that there is no bias due to any anticipation, nor that you have imagined the results.
If I notice some unexpected change I will not ignore it for the sake of convenience, or whatever, but will investigate it until I am satisfied I fully understand the causes.
Quite a few sonic enhancements have been the result of good theory, but, similarly many theoretical improvements have not turned out to sound as good as I had expected and hoped for. Also, a lot of trials have been the result of something I have seen written somewhere else, or perhaps an idea sparked off by someone else and which I have tried out for myself to see (or hear!) what the effects might be.
I have never been reluctant to give something a go, but quite a lot of what I have seen from other people (especially with the advent of the Internet) has turned out not to work well for me, and I guess that many people will possibly make hasty judgements, or maybe will not spend the time in such careful appraisal of the results, before they wish to 'share' these ideas with others.
I was extremely fortunate in being a long-term friend of the late John Linsley Hood, who was my mentor for many years, and anything which people like himself, Nelson Pass, Jonathan Carr, John Curl and several others (too many to mention here) have to say can usually be taken as extremely reliable. However, most of them will simply not perhaps have the time to carry out such extensive listening trials as I have done, simply because they have commercial pressures to contend with, and families to feed etc.
Accordingly, over time I was able to show JLH, for example, that using certain components in his circuits did provide very worthwhile sonic improvements when applied to circuits which were well-designed in the first place, and this shows that some (many) benefits can be gained from a patient and careful listening approach.
Jonathan Carr does a lot of listening trials on components when optimising his designs, and the recent thread on the Blowtorch pre-amp, has shown how much trouble John Curl goes to in a similar manner.
However, personally I have never needed to make a living out of audio electronics, and when it is (mainly) a hobby it is a lot more fun and far less taxing with no real deadlines to market etc., and these other people have my admiration (and sympathy!) that they can produce such excellent-sounding designs, given the time at their disposal.
As with JLH who was one of the kindest and in reality most self-effacing gentlemen I have had the pleasure of knowing, I am also extremely impressed that they will share their thoughts with others so freely, and sincerely regret to see that several unscrupulous people will always appear to take advantage of this generosity.
Regards,
Hi
how can you really predict such impact on sonics, music power is
nothing but continueous if we assume anything would be errorneous, looking now at class-a power amp there the effect
is constand by the continues power drawn by the circuit irrespective of signal power thus if there was such an effect it
would have been cancelled
Dr Self conducted some experiments on a class-b amp using a test tone where he
measured Vdrop across the fuse at full power in his experiment
the drop was about 300mV but the duration of the test wasnt mentioned
kind regards
how can you really predict such impact on sonics, music power is
nothing but continueous if we assume anything would be errorneous, looking now at class-a power amp there the effect
is constand by the continues power drawn by the circuit irrespective of signal power thus if there was such an effect it
would have been cancelled
Dr Self conducted some experiments on a class-b amp using a test tone where he
measured Vdrop across the fuse at full power in his experiment
the drop was about 300mV but the duration of the test wasnt mentioned
kind regards
microchip said:Greetings i am Klaus
does this mean it is ok to use fuse loudspeaker protection?
I have never yet used any fuse in my amps.
Not anywhere at secondary side of trafo.
If I need a circuit breaker, or shutdown for protection
I will use a high quality relay.
This is also what I see in serious hi-fi amplifiers.
now dont start discussing sonics of relays, please!
There are 100 of other things that can impact sound more
than a proper relay.
And most of those 100 will have no effect at all on sound we can hear
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