In the guitar amp world Vox AC30, Marshall Plexi etc, yummy! And most guitar guys love tube amps so that should say a bit right there about tubes and sound, at least for that application..
All I've ever had for a home stereo since I got into a tube amp some years ago now, was typical integrated SS amps with the last being a HT Receiver by Yamaha..
I've had lots of comments from people and women too from just noticing the background music playing, and asking what it is or commenting that it sounds nice, never really remember that before with my SS stuff so much.. Mostly what I notice, and think others notice too, is as the time goes by while the music is playing, is that it just never seems to get fatiguing at all.. I can play anything from older Jazz, Blues, to Pop, Reggae and even some heavy stuff and it just all seems to sound better than any other system I had before etc.. Tubes and synergy seems to be pretty magical when it all comes together.. Never heard a highly regarded SS amp before other than some Carver, Bryston, Sugden, and Linn stuff, so not saying tubes are better than SS just that I'm liking what I have, so can relate to the OP post etc..
All I've ever had for a home stereo since I got into a tube amp some years ago now, was typical integrated SS amps with the last being a HT Receiver by Yamaha..
I've had lots of comments from people and women too from just noticing the background music playing, and asking what it is or commenting that it sounds nice, never really remember that before with my SS stuff so much.. Mostly what I notice, and think others notice too, is as the time goes by while the music is playing, is that it just never seems to get fatiguing at all.. I can play anything from older Jazz, Blues, to Pop, Reggae and even some heavy stuff and it just all seems to sound better than any other system I had before etc.. Tubes and synergy seems to be pretty magical when it all comes together.. Never heard a highly regarded SS amp before other than some Carver, Bryston, Sugden, and Linn stuff, so not saying tubes are better than SS just that I'm liking what I have, so can relate to the OP post etc..
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On another note, how many of you are aware just how ridiculous the prices for amps can be?
I just saw this and the only reaction I could manage was outright laughter!
HigherFi AMPS - Worlds Best Hi-Fi Audio Amplifiers
But what do I know?
Maybe the "NEW AUDIO FRONTIERS 845 Special Edition Stereo" 25 wpc tube amp actually does sound 20 times better than my Shuguang.
One thing is for certain; I'll never know, or care
I just saw this and the only reaction I could manage was outright laughter!
HigherFi AMPS - Worlds Best Hi-Fi Audio Amplifiers
But what do I know?
Maybe the "NEW AUDIO FRONTIERS 845 Special Edition Stereo" 25 wpc tube amp actually does sound 20 times better than my Shuguang.
One thing is for certain; I'll never know, or care
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I'm a bit of a skeptic on cap changing. If it has polyprop caps I wouldn't mess with it. Probably any Polyprops are fine. Personally I think the expensive ones are for fools. I'm quite happy with Solen brand.
Any caps have more distortion when they are operated in their rolloff region; where the cap has significant resistance in the circuit. Putting in a bigger value would reduce that if it was that simple, but the caps that drive the output stage in most topologies are responsible for increasing the crossover distortion in the push-pull output stage, and the bigger they are the worse that gets, so you're kind of stuck on that. At Tektronix we had a saying; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I think that applies here. Speaker placement and room acoustics will make orders of magnitude more difference. Mess with that instead.
A close friend of mine (Matt Kamna) is into tubes more than about anybody on the planet. He has well over 10,000 tubes, a huge state of the art lab, has improved the worlds best tube tester, built countless tube amps, etc., and from hearing about his experiences I get the impression that there is likely more difference between two tubes of the same brand and type, than between two tubes of different brands. Even some of the better brands (JJ) have QC problems. It's all hit and miss to a significant extent. So to pay god awful amounts for vintage or "special" tubes seems foolish to me.Great! Thanks again.
Re: Psvane tubes; I am very hesitant. The price is very, very high, and while I am very impressed with this amp, GF does also sell some products which I would put into the category of "snake oil" ($100 power cords, $500 interconnects, etc.).
Maybe the Psvane tubes are amazing, but I am not sure I will hear $300 worth of difference. Recall what I paid for the amp!
On caps, polyprops with foil rather than film might be better for the high voltage swings. The silver/oil caps are very probably snake oil, along with expensive interconnects and speaker wire. It's the connectors that are likely a weak link, not the wire itself. Connectors should have the gold alloy coating and be soldered to the wires. Any more than that is money down the toilet.
I appreciate your perspective, Bob. You sound like a common-sense kind of guy, you you obviously have a ton of experience.
Unfortunately for me, I am a "if it ain't broke, I ain't fixed it yet" kinda guy. I can never just leave well enough alone. Regarding re-capping, I have seen many threads here where people have reported great results by upgrading caps, particularly in sub-standard Chinese "junk". This amp isn't sub-standard Chinese junk, but corners must have been cut somewhere to hit this price point, right? Anyway, I am not married to the idea of cap-swapping, but I think it would be a good learning experience for me and I think there might be some benefit, particularly if I can determine with some certainty that the existing caps are low quality.
Ridiculous. Who coughs up 6 figures for an amplifier?
I'm going to build some stuff and list it there. One of a kind! Binder posts made of unobtanium! GET IT NOW BEFORE IT'S GONE! A steal at only $795,000!
Matt sounds like a truly dedicated tube guy! Wow! You are lucky to know him!
When you talk about the differences between tubes, however, are you talking about technical differences, or the sound of the tubes? Technical differences, what Matt has spent a lifetime testing, cannot be argued. They are empirical data. But how much does Matt say about the subjective evaluation of tubes?
The reason I ask is because I do feel I can tell the difference between some tubes. I have rolled about 5 different kinds of tubes through my Grant Fidelity B-283 Tube Buffer (no longer in my system after installing the I-25), and there were noticeable differences. So much so that I ended up settling on a favourite - NOS Mullard 4010 - and gave the rest away to a fellow forum member (although I did keep a pair of NOS Sylvania 6AK5, since there is something very nice about them, too.)
Maybe I won't be able to tell the difference between Electro Harmonix EL34 and the Shuguang EL34. Maybe I will. Either way it is a win-win, because I will need more tubes eventually anyway and in the meantime I get to find out if I can hear the difference.
Regarding interconnects; we're on the same page. Not dollar store specials, not the $500 jobbies. Just something decent. Last time I needed an interconnect, I dug through one of my "parts n' wires" boxes and ended up finding a nice quality RGB component video interconnect. It sounds great, but I wonder if I should have used the green and blue, rather than the green and red
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Never noticed.
jeff
I figured there where some seriously expensive "audiofool" amps out there, but I had no idea just how foolish it gets.
The people who buy the amps on the first page are the same people who make jokes about starving people while they enjoy their Christmas dinner.
I've witnessed it.
I just had a pleasant surprise.
I had assumed the I-25 came with generic (unmarked) Shuguang EL34 tubes.
Just now I discovered the "Psvane" and the "peacock logo" on the back of each tube!
They're not the black bottles, but the "Hi-Fi Series" EL34 (Quad) | Psvane Audio Tubes, Caps and Amps
So, this $400 amp comes with $100 worth of EL34s, and another $40 worth of 12AX7 and 12AU7.
So the amp is $260 ?
Crazy!
I had assumed the I-25 came with generic (unmarked) Shuguang EL34 tubes.
Just now I discovered the "Psvane" and the "peacock logo" on the back of each tube!
They're not the black bottles, but the "Hi-Fi Series" EL34 (Quad) | Psvane Audio Tubes, Caps and Amps
So, this $400 amp comes with $100 worth of EL34s, and another $40 worth of 12AX7 and 12AU7.
So the amp is $260 ?
Crazy!
Someone will buy it.
You know, I took some time and looked at some of the amps. There were a few that I liked, but forget the price. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just can't see what's so special about some or those amps from the sales pitch.
I can see an honest to god high end tube amp costing $20-25K tops, no ripoff. I would think that you could market a stellar tube amp for $10-12 K with 50% markup. Are my figures close?
I am intrigued by some esoteric designs but for everyday use and my hard earned money I just don't see the value in them.
I have been experimenting with (mostly) cheap and common parts, tweaking and optimising them. I built a "zero budget" power amp out of salvage parts and applied some simple and obvious tweaks. The results were so good that I actually put it in a box, which was salvaged from an ancient project. I have learned so much since then that I am going to rip it apart and make it better with $25 worth of parts from Mouser.
My point is that clever design and implementation can get you (at least) 90% of what a budget breaking uber amp will give you for 10% or less of the price.
I appreciate your opinion on cap sound differences. I tend to not believe anything anyone says unless I can imagine why there would be a difference. So often there are other variables at play. Some caps are more inductive than others, thereby affecting phase margin in high feedback amps. Tubes of the same number will have different plate resistance and linearity. Even of the same brand. I've seen it vary widely within the two sections of a dual triode. The Rp variation would theoretically affect the low end cutoff of the coupling cap, which could be audible. it seems like these variables go on and on, and I never hear people talk about them, so I remain a skeptic. Matt has been telling me for years that different caps of a given dielectric do sound significantly different. I guess I need to do some listening for myself. When the dielectrics measure the same, and the physical construction is minimally inductive, it's hard for me to imagine why there would be an audible difference. Matt says they resonate while acting as transducers. That could be I guess. Humans are very good at convincing themselves that they hear a difference when there actually isn't one. Linkwitz has elaborated on this a bit, even referencing articles about it. Knowing someone who sells speaker wire for $11,000 per pair of 20 ft. wires (Jenlabs here in Portland Oregon) makes me a bit cynical all around. Sorry if I put out that vibe.Matt sounds like a truly dedicated tube guy! Wow! You are lucky to know him!
When you talk about the differences between tubes, however, are you talking about technical differences, or the sound of the tubes? Technical differences, what Matt has spent a lifetime testing, cannot be argued. They are empirical data. But how much does Matt say about the subjective evaluation of tubes?
The reason I ask is because I do feel I can tell the difference between some tubes. I have rolled about 5 different kinds of tubes through my Grant Fidelity B-283 Tube Buffer (no longer in my system after installing the I-25), and there were noticeable differences. So much so that I ended up settling on a favourite - NOS Mullard 4010 - and gave the rest away to a fellow forum member (although I did keep a pair of NOS Sylvania 6AK5, since there is something very nice about them, too.)
Maybe I won't be able to tell the difference between Electro Harmonix EL34 and the Shuguang EL34. Maybe I will. Either way it is a win-win, because I will need more tubes eventually anyway and in the meantime I get to find out if I can hear the difference.
Regarding interconnects; we're on the same page. Not dollar store specials, not the $500 jobbies. Just something decent. Last time I needed an interconnect, I dug through one of my "parts n' wires" boxes and ended up finding a nice quality RGB component video interconnect. It sounds great, but I wonder if I should have used the green and blue, rather than the green and red
Update: $14,000 for two 10 foot speaker cables at Jenalabs:
Welcome to our Speaker Cable page
WTF...
Welcome to our Speaker Cable page
WTF...
I figured there where some seriously expensive "audiofool" amps out there, but I had no idea just how foolish it gets.
The people who buy the amps on the first page are the same people who make jokes about starving people while they enjoy their Christmas dinner.
I've witnessed it.
I've heard a few expensive systems; for example one built around Mcintosh electronics (forgot the speakers they used), one around Nagra electronics paired with top of the line ProAc speakers; a top Naim system with top KEF speakers, one with Jadis tube electronics and magneplanars. Indeed, very high total system prices but in these cases I thought that the sound of each of these systems was sublime.
Also great results from Voxativ fullrange speakers and Avant Garde horns. And, systems around the almost reasonably priced on the 2nd hand market Quad ESL 63 can also be magical.
On the other hand I didn't care at all for a good number of other expensive systems.
My opinion is that some of these systems, while ridiculously expensive, are indeed incredibly musical. I won't judge people who buy them, just as I don't judge people who buy Ferraris.
My favourite system from all the above? Nagra electronics with big ProAc towers. Fabulous, truly fabulous.
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