I was editing my previous post in the meantime. The above comment is what I'd tend to disagree with - but then I'm not a measurement guy.
Sorry if my constructive criticism wound you up. As I mentioned earlier in my post, I do appreciate the effort to measure and post. Try not to read too far into my healthy skepticism, and try not to single out that aspect of my criticism as the only thing I said in that post. You should appreciate the fact that anyone around here is willing to call you out on your methods rather than to just take your data as the gospel. emotions aside, it is a valid concern that the box for the Alpair wasn't optimized and that the box for the FF85k was..
For instance, I have seen misleading information perpetuated by another member of this forum - Planet 10 about the driver I brought up - the FE83En.
Its posts like this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/219895-fostex-fe83en-ff85wk-questions.html
And this:
Anyone try the Blumenstein Orca speaker?
That are a serious problem in our community.
(Where Planet 10 mentions that the FE83En has almost an octave less reach than it actually does...)
The assertion that the FE83En only goes to 160hz just couldn't be further from the truth. Yet no one calls his data into question, or even asks where he collected it from. And it's kind of awkward for me to have to step in and call this into question because I am a commercial entity.
But the fact is that the bass reflex enclosures around the FE83En that I and others have been making for several years--hundreds of pairs in my own case--have been confidently plunging into the 85hz range. The Fostex data sheet suggests tuning to roughly 90hz. It gets there no problem. And I do have the measurements to back up these tests.
So yes, I do take issue with the rigor of your study. Granted, you weren't a whole octave off like Dave has been on several instances, but still. Discrepancies should be duly noted.
Science is skepticism!
Best,
Clark
Last edited:
The drivers are happisest in quite different size boxes, the FF85 likes 2.5 litre, the A6.2p 6.5 litre -- that & the slightly larger size, is what gives the Alpair a distinct edge in bass response, even in the microSize (2.5 litre) universal A6.2 box.
The test is what it is, and an important data point. Both are flatter & smoother than i expected to see in real-world measurements.
Thanx Ryan.
dave
The test is what it is, and an important data point. Both are flatter & smoother than i expected to see in real-world measurements.
Thanx Ryan.
dave
What do you disagree with? That the volume and type of box matter? They only affect bass, which I clearly indicated I wasn't interested in testing. I'd have to go onto my driveway and test GP for that. Which I do sometimes, but is time consuming. I can assure you, the volume and type of box do not affect the >200hz region. Also, 7L stuffed and sealed is an alright box for the alp6p. I didn't just pull it outta my ___.
I appreciate that and I shouldn't let it get to me. It was the piling effect of several posts, that are purely speculative and don't back up what they say. Your post was just one of a few.
I can't speak for P10, but my post in your first link is on page 2. I show my speaker measurement and you can see the major 2khz issue with the FE83. That's all I can say about the FE83. As for it's bass abilities, I lump it into the same category as these, no good. If you enjoy it down to 90hz or what ever, all the power to you. If you find one users comments inappropriate, that's separate from what I do. I'm an independant. I'm not associated with P10 other than I live near him, like his work, and have measured some of his speakers. Sometimes I'm not nice about the results either
I pride myself as being neutral and blatantly honest about results.Now I have an issue. Nothing in your post was able to display any issue with the rigor of my tests. All you did was complain about another member. Show me how my test procedure doesn't allow for reliable data for either of these drivers. Would you prefer I post separate threads for them, so they aren't comparible? Tell me, what are the "discrepancies" you see in my tests? Something doesn't jive with your results I assume? Feel free to post your results.
Remember, as I've said several times in this thread now, these tests weren't a matter of picking a winner. Just two drivers in two boxes. Want me to cut a chamfer on the alpair box and show you the extremely slight difference it makes? I'll do that, but before I do any more free work for a lounge chair critic, lets see something from you. I don't need to prove anything to you, but you actually sell something. I see your website doesn't have a single measurement. Feel free to post your commercial products performance here. I won't mind.
Something P10 has never done, is sit back and criticize my work without backing up his words.
It is possible to get FE83eN to go that low, but the BR tuning is not something i would ever consider using -- i could not derive a vented alignment i would use. And with even 1w in this sim excursion limits are exceeded all the way up to 300 Hz. It looks best in a sealed box, which reaches as deep as i claim.
dave
Ryan - part of that was a gentle jest at the 2-way at the 2K less evil comment - perhaps in another thread (I get confused trying to multitask while at work), but as a non-measurement guy with over 50yrs of experience listening to a variety of commercial and DIY loudspeakers, FR and multi-way, what I'd more strenuously disagree with is your supposition that the enclosure size and type is irrelevant. Under test condiditons, to certain portions of bandwidth with swept signals - perhaps - but with dynamic wide bandwidth music, I think perhaps not.
as for continuing your conversation with Clark - careful what you wish for
edit ; and yes, I should have started off with a thanx for the effort made at my request in the first place - few of us are completely free of churlishness, truculence, or selective criticism of others. (just ask my wife)
as for continuing your conversation with Clark - careful what you wish for
edit ; and yes, I should have started off with a thanx for the effort made at my request in the first place - few of us are completely free of churlishness, truculence, or selective criticism of others. (just ask my wife)
Last edited:
Well, yes, I'd never disagree with that. For the measurements taken, the box isn't involved. For listening or bass measurements, the box is incredibly important.
All I ask is he explain in a meaningful way why the box I selected for the Alpair makes my testing unfair for the alpair. I see plenty of similar sized and shaped boxes on his website for similar drivers, so what gives? If he can demonstrate there's a problem, I'll either correct it, or scrap the results. It's quite simple really. Not sure why he needs to drag Dave through the mud to (not) make his point.
Oh no problem. I don't expect stuff like this to gain me fame or something. And I appreciate (probably doesn't seem like it right now) the conversation we're having about the results. At least you've engaged me in a meaningful way.
Guys,
Armchair critic!?! I am not the person who is posting data in several places on the internet without having ever actually heard or measured the performance of the drivers I am discussing. Especially not the driver of a competing company.
But hey - I just needed to get this off my chest. Something that I see is an injustice and I am assertively pointing it out. And whether you agree with me or not, thank you for looking at those links and judging for yourself.
As I mentioned, I've owned, enjoyed, measured, and evaluated both the FF85Wk, and Alpair 6p used in your study - in multiple different well made enclosures from my own shop. designs were arrived at by simulation (Win ISD). Then I broke each model in several hundred hours, and took meansurements as well. But unfortunately, I didn't save them. I'm sorry, but small business moves fast and sometimes there just isn't always time to communicate every little detail of my RnD to the world.
But from memory the graphs do mostly line up with what is here in your study (which is why I didn't CONDEMN your study, just provide guidance for how to get more accurate measurements. The conclusion of your study is that the FF85K was closer to the advertised (supposedly ideal) measurements rather than the Alpair 6p that had a pretty weird trough in its graph.
I personally think that the Alpair 6p could be done better justice than this. Is it my favorite driver, no. but for some people, it's a great choice. I want people to buy this driver. I want alot of people, all across the world to enjoy all ilk, all manner of HiFi for that matter!
I have the mentality of the way the microbrew community is. "Go buy beer!"
Now. on to the reputation of the 83En. Yes, it does have a rise at 2k and it is somewhat noticable. However, it can mostly be dealt with by natural baffle shape/size and a very fine build quality. Other than that slight anomoly, it has very even, pleasant, and even what could be considered a "powerful" response for this size of a driver.
For a driver whose anomoly can be dealt with so easily via some simple, yet admittably patiently realized design elements, then the same is true probably true (based on your and my and others' evaluations) of the Alpair 6p. I don't even make a speaker commercially for the Alpair 6p. My competitor does. And!!! I really like Mark's work and I think people should partake!!!! He's a brilliant designer. So is Dave. Mostly
The FE83En is also great for DIYing. I just got done teaching a speakerbuilding class at MAKERHAUS consisting of 9 people. The students DIYed enclosures for the FE83En and the FE103En in a real woodshop. I am very "pro-effort" in DIY and scientific efforts. So I upheld the students to the same design rigor that my own designs go through. Sim, make, measure, sim, make measure...rinse and repeat. It isn't a secret. its the same kind of work that everybody else in this industry does...no one is all that special in this respect, me included.
And yes. My personal favorite drivers' reputation should be cleared on this forum from its current state of being the red headed step child or something.
----I can only trust that other people on this forum aren't blind to the discrepancies in what's been said and implied on "the internet" from the truth about these drivers.---
The fact of the matter is that thousands of people across the world enjoy the FE83En, just like they enjoy the FF85WK, and soon, hopefully, the newer Alpair 6p.
What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
Best,
Clark
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure Dave has heard the FE83. Still not relevant to your assertions here, but fine.
Wow, you did mis the point
That wasn't the conclusion at all. The conclusion is they both measure great. A side thought was "hey, look how great the fostex lines up with the spec sheet".Fair enough. I'm still unsure why you feel this way. But fine. We'll agree to disagree.
Now. on to the reputation of the 83En. Yes, it does have a rise at 2k and it is somewhat noticable. However, it can mostly be dealt with by natural baffle shape/size and a very fine build quality. Other than that slight anomoly, it has very even, pleasant, and even what could be considered a "powerful" response for this size of a driver.
For a driver whose anomoly can be dealt with so easily via some simple, yet admittably patiently realized design elements, then the same is true probably true (based on your and my and others' evaluations) of the Alpair 6p. I don't even make a speaker commercially for the Alpair 6p. My competitor does. And!!! I really like Mark's work and I think people should partake!!!! He's a brilliant designer. So is Dave. Mostly
The FE83En is also great for DIYing. I just got done teaching a speakerbuilding class at MAKERHAUS consisting of 9 people. The students DIYed enclosures for the FE83En and the FE103En in a real woodshop. I am very "pro-effort" in DIY and scientific efforts. So I upheld the students to the same design rigor that my own designs go through. Sim, make, measure, sim, make measure...rinse and repeat. It isn't a secret. its the same kind of work that everybody else in this industry does...no one is all that special in this respect, me included.
And yes. My personal favorite drivers' reputation should be cleared on this forum from its current state of being the red headed step child or something.
----I can only trust that other people on this forum aren't blind to the discrepancies in what's been said and implied on "the internet" from the truth about these drivers.---
That thousands of people across the world enjoy the FE83En, just like they enjoy these other driver models being discussed on this thread!
What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
Best,
Clark
I'm unsure why you're so hung up on the FE83? It's not part of this test. And from the testing I've personally done of it, I will NOT "clear its reputation". Feel free to keep enjoying it though. We agree on something, just partake!
None of this has anything to do with giving the alpair a bad shake here though. I own the alpairs. The fostex are on loan. I have no reason to lift one up and slam the other down...
Ryan, have you used Edge?
http://www.tolvan.com/
Tiny adjustments in baffle size and driver placement make big differences in the modeled and measured response of most sizes of drivers. Especially for the little guys.
Last edited:
AHHHHHH you haven't even read my posts then. On page two there's a big screen cap of me using EDGE. I've been using this program for years.
I know what diffraction is. This isn't my first Rodeo.
Just cause baffle size can VERY slightly change diffraction character, doesn't mean this is an unfair test of the alpair.
BTW, EDGE usually over estimates diffraction based on REAL measurements. There's a freebie for you to use.
Thanks
EDIT - Looks like you took out some of your last post about the EDGE program. Now my post doesn't make sense. Just trying to keep the record straight here.
I know what diffraction is. This isn't my first Rodeo.
Just cause baffle size can VERY slightly change diffraction character, doesn't mean this is an unfair test of the alpair.
BTW, EDGE usually over estimates diffraction based on REAL measurements. There's a freebie for you to use.
Thanks
EDIT - Looks like you took out some of your last post about the EDGE program. Now my post doesn't make sense. Just trying to keep the record straight here.
Last edited:
AHHHHHH you haven't even read my posts then. On page two there's a big screen cap of me using EDGE. I've been using this program for years.
I know what diffraction is. This isn't my first Rodeo.
Just cause baffle size can VERY slightly change diffraction character, doesn't mean this is an unfair test of the alpair.
BTW, EDGE usually over estimates diffraction based on REAL measurements. There's a freebie for you to use.
Thanks
Umm... gosh, sorry. My ears were better than my eyes on page 2 there...and I don't know you very well. I certainly didn't mean to offend you, and I hope this one can blow over some day then.
Last edited:
Already water under the bridge. Now we know each other. Hi, my name is Ryan Bouma. I've been an audio nut since my Dad bought Technique speaker in 1990. I'm 30 years old. I started DIY'ing speakers about 7 years ago. Made a bunch of really bad ones. Now I make some that sound fine. I mostly make multi-ways, but enjoy full rangers for their special abilities. I live on Vancouver Island which is quite near to you. Maybe one day we'll bump into each other. Nice to meet you
Already water under the bridge. Now we know each other. Hi, my name is Ryan Bouma. I've been an audio nut since my Dad bought Technique speaker in 1990. I'm 30 years old. I started DIY'ing speakers about 7 years ago. Made a bunch of really bad ones. Now I make some that sound fine. I mostly make multi-ways, but enjoy full rangers for their special abilities. I live on Vancouver Island which is quite near to you. Maybe one day we'll bump into each other. Nice to meet you
For sure, man. We are in the same neighborhood practically, considering the homogeneity of the Puget Sound's ecosystem. And I also like the meaning of your screen name.
I will take you up on the offer to post measurements some time.
Cheers,
Clark
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.