Another thing I forget to mention was due to difficulty in buying components like non inductive wire wound resistors decent inductors and capacitors here in Australia I made the BSC circuit with very cheap components ( the lacquer cost more) and still they sound excellent so if boutique components do make a difference then they can only get better.
nkg
nkg
Re: gotta agree...
Fe206E's work great in a front horn also.
I was a somewhat early adopter of the FE206E's in Azurahorns. IIRC, they are specced for horn use, and recommended for horn use by Fostex.I never could figure out why people were using them for Bass Reflex and what have you. I wonder how many of them still are using them in something other than horns?
IMHO, if you're not using a horn either front or back, there may well be other drivers that will suit your purpose better.
The FE206Es are very good, particularly at that price point.
I replaced them with Lowther DX4's which are a better driver. However, the list price for the lowthers is about ten times that of the FE206E's.
I was using them with a digital crossover, and only had about 2 db EQ in a couple of places.
They do have a slight bump at about 2800/2900, due to the attachment of the surround.
IMHO, the Fe206E's are really hard to beat for the money, in a horn.
And if somebody makes work in something else and they like how it sounds, it suits me fine _big grin_
blumenco said:
Fe206E's work great in a front horn also.
I was a somewhat early adopter of the FE206E's in Azurahorns. IIRC, they are specced for horn use, and recommended for horn use by Fostex.I never could figure out why people were using them for Bass Reflex and what have you. I wonder how many of them still are using them in something other than horns?
IMHO, if you're not using a horn either front or back, there may well be other drivers that will suit your purpose better.
The FE206Es are very good, particularly at that price point.
I replaced them with Lowther DX4's which are a better driver. However, the list price for the lowthers is about ten times that of the FE206E's.
I was using them with a digital crossover, and only had about 2 db EQ in a couple of places.
They do have a slight bump at about 2800/2900, due to the attachment of the surround.
IMHO, the Fe206E's are really hard to beat for the money, in a horn.
And if somebody makes work in something else and they like how it sounds, it suits me fine _big grin_
A few reasons.
1. Easy enclosure to build and tune with changing port length.
2. Using a correction circuit, they are adjustable for any room or system (assuming sufficient power from amp). Very flexible design that can produce a large range of SPL response profiles.
3. The correction circuit shapes the input signal to tame the rising mids and high end but does not remove any of the control on the cone from the big magnet and high BL. The driver's T/S parameters are not altered. Some loss of midrange efficiency but with some amp power not a problem.
4. I have listened to medium and low Qts drivers in my ML TL and prefer the detail of the lower Qts drivers like the FE-206E. I will give up some bass for a more revealing midrange.
5. Relatively small and easily placed in a room, corners are not required.
6. Full range driver sound with sufficient bass output for acoustic music. No crossover.
7. SIMPLE and hard to mess up the design. Easy to design with minimum risk of a surprise. Very predictable design. Relatively small compared to other more traditional options.
The ML TL is definitely not the best possible design for the FE-206E but I believe it is a good simple low risk design that has a lot of advantages. There are some people who do not care for it for various reasons, but there are many more that have been extremely happy with the results. Everything is a trade-off in speaker design.
I have heard people claim the correction circuit sucks the life out of the music, that has not been my or many other peoples experience. This has been a fairly rare complaint. When the life is sucked out of the music, to me it indicates that the circuit has not been optimized or that the amp does not have enough juice/or is a poor match to handle the speaker.
acaudio, do have any measurements because
your horn is BL and very short, my experience
shows than no bass below 100 Hz.
or is your horn more a BR with horn "Kehle"
your press chamber is so large.
my best solution is the SAXOPHON:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/104.htm
more Info klick the red arrow.
your horn is BL and very short, my experience
shows than no bass below 100 Hz.
or is your horn more a BR with horn "Kehle"
your press chamber is so large.
my best solution is the SAXOPHON:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/104.htm
more Info klick the red arrow.
Attachments
yes great speaker but
The 206e are a good driver. But really sings only in horns. I put them in all simple boxes possible (spheres, BR, sealed, OB-that is an open sounding mids! but crude further to the top) and it only sing in later built front horns (tractrix, 120Hz). They have a bit anemic sound compared to other FR I had but maybe anemic is not the right word...more monitor, studio alike sound. Still they are not analytical per se, they are voiced for the mid-high range for that. In horns they sound mature and not so skinny, in front horn maybe also the highs get little tempered. Anyway I would not recommend them. For all other speaker projects you can get more balanced and less shouty speaker. For horns they are a steal.
I found myself taming their upper registry with all kind of mods I could remember from my 10years of melhuish´s fullrange forum reading experiences and of cource my own experiments. Now they employ only 1/3 of the wheezer and even the leftovers have been shaped out to an uneven sourrounding. I shellaced the membrane in points all over it but more dense in the inner side of membrane. The decware trick with the phase plug from metal was a no-no. It added metallic glare to the highs, something I wanted to ge rid off. With these mods you get less highs (up to 10K nothing more) - I mounted the supertweeter in the plase of the phase plug and put them back to horns. These are now live sounding, smooth and extended sounding speakers with grunt and dispersion (better just because of the smaller wheezer and of course the supertweeter) like no speaker I had before. Recently I have been at the local hiend fair and was astonished by performance of the MBL 111 speakers that threw a big spacious soundstage with classical music and that was the only one that reminded me of my cheap horns. And back home I realised that with better source and room as big as the one at the show, they might be giants. verything else was really mediocre at the fair. Even the electrostatics I liked so much before the horn shock sounded to flat and hi-fi compared to lifelike sound horn loaded speaker. The only great presentation I heard was from local group of young students like me that had an old Saba alnico speaker mounted in big OB and driven by theirs chipamp (based on LMXXXX) and of course mdded marantz (who doesn´t have it). They had resolution and great timing with OB´s recognizable stero bass.
FE206E are good to excellent but I find them as that only in horns.
!!
T
The 206e are a good driver. But really sings only in horns. I put them in all simple boxes possible (spheres, BR, sealed, OB-that is an open sounding mids! but crude further to the top) and it only sing in later built front horns (tractrix, 120Hz). They have a bit anemic sound compared to other FR I had but maybe anemic is not the right word...more monitor, studio alike sound. Still they are not analytical per se, they are voiced for the mid-high range for that. In horns they sound mature and not so skinny, in front horn maybe also the highs get little tempered. Anyway I would not recommend them. For all other speaker projects you can get more balanced and less shouty speaker. For horns they are a steal.
I found myself taming their upper registry with all kind of mods I could remember from my 10years of melhuish´s fullrange forum reading experiences and of cource my own experiments. Now they employ only 1/3 of the wheezer and even the leftovers have been shaped out to an uneven sourrounding. I shellaced the membrane in points all over it but more dense in the inner side of membrane. The decware trick with the phase plug from metal was a no-no. It added metallic glare to the highs, something I wanted to ge rid off. With these mods you get less highs (up to 10K nothing more) - I mounted the supertweeter in the plase of the phase plug and put them back to horns. These are now live sounding, smooth and extended sounding speakers with grunt and dispersion (better just because of the smaller wheezer and of course the supertweeter) like no speaker I had before. Recently I have been at the local hiend fair and was astonished by performance of the MBL 111 speakers that threw a big spacious soundstage with classical music and that was the only one that reminded me of my cheap horns. And back home I realised that with better source and room as big as the one at the show, they might be giants. verything else was really mediocre at the fair. Even the electrostatics I liked so much before the horn shock sounded to flat and hi-fi compared to lifelike sound horn loaded speaker. The only great presentation I heard was from local group of young students like me that had an old Saba alnico speaker mounted in big OB and driven by theirs chipamp (based on LMXXXX) and of course mdded marantz (who doesn´t have it). They had resolution and great timing with OB´s recognizable stero bass.
FE206E are good to excellent but I find them as that only in horns.
!!
T
hm said:
It's a big vent reflex, as GM calls them -large filter chamber, long, flared reflex vent (i.e. a ported box coupled to a short horn). They can work very well, if your technical baseline comparison is with a reflex, not a horn, enclosure, and extension is usually a strong point.
Dave's wooden phase-plugs will transform the upper end, if what they did with my 167s is anything to go by. I suggested a friend here in the UK tried them with his 206s & he reports the drivers are massively improved. Much better than using a metal socket from the local DIY shop.
vent
vent and horn reflex does provide a very fun bass. I liken it to the J horns, like in the PA system I posted earlier. it gives perhaps less monitor tone and super low end definition than the orthodox right angle folded horns, however, I am beginning to realise the advantages of such designs as far as tone goes.... it is a real "disco" sound....
back to MJK's posts:
I agree, everything here is a compromise. I just never had the initial money to start out with powerful while clean enough amps to really play with BSC stuff early on, hence why I took a path in another direction. now I am spending just as much on amps, as I would have been in with the response modifier stuff, but sticking with the 45 zone, which would be screaming for its life if asked to do dynamics while driving a BSC circuit. I fully agree with you that BSC as a concept is very good. and it does sound very very good. in general, any well refined (in whichever way you refine it) single driver system is going to sound very good. the BSC just does not get "there" for me in a way that neither any forum post with a technical explaination could.
I feel that in the end it has more to do with my taste in amps than it does with my taste in speaker setups. solid state, few and far between speaks to my soul.
in so far as I lie solidly in the tube/tube emmulating digital/nelson pass first watt/etc. camp. further, i find the lowest powered triodes to have an immense draw for me. the only speakers suitable for those amps are hyper efficient and generally not constricted or corrected in any way. basically curing "weird tone" with differring levels of euphonic tones from the amps. the super speed that the low power triodes can have helps keep responses from being distracting too. a big, nice room is a must or if not in a big nice room, a sense of how to tweak must take its place. I feel this realm has a capability of higher refinement, but there is a time, money, and space, and even lifestyle tradeoff to get this level of refinement. frequently, the potential of alot of systems is not even hinted at, owing to poor implimentation and voicing. people will buy ridiculous components, assemble them, and expect everything to just fall into place. does not happen. certain commercial manufacturers have thought this out and done alot of the tweaking and voicing in house, thereby easing and assuring the process of implimentation, but this thought requires alot of time, money, obsession, and practicality. in the ciy realm anything goes. of course, alot of people just like their own sound, but I find myself disappointed in people who bite off more than they can chew project wise and then blame the components for not being refined enough. so yeah, as in the japanese audio culture, I like the way that different styles of stereo systems are also categorized according to differing levels of "mania" of the hobbyist. that is simply what it takes to deal with the high efficiency stuff. obsession. this differentiation inherently states that everything is a tradeoff. so yes, I am a full supporter to technologies which attempt to bring the aesthetic of high efficiency, artistically refined sound to the masses with ease. everything from mega horns to old ghetto blasters (some of which are quite high efficiency from the eighties to deal with lower powered solid state and battery life...) whichever it is, it is a wonderful experience. I view us as all in the same camp.
let it be known as well, that my most recent projects with the fe87e have shown to be best powered by modest solid state more or less. the horsepower tube amps I have yet to try, as I do not have any around. the 87e tend to not need any correction whatsoever, and remains to have a very involving tone to it.
clark
vent and horn reflex does provide a very fun bass. I liken it to the J horns, like in the PA system I posted earlier. it gives perhaps less monitor tone and super low end definition than the orthodox right angle folded horns, however, I am beginning to realise the advantages of such designs as far as tone goes.... it is a real "disco" sound....
back to MJK's posts:
I agree, everything here is a compromise. I just never had the initial money to start out with powerful while clean enough amps to really play with BSC stuff early on, hence why I took a path in another direction. now I am spending just as much on amps, as I would have been in with the response modifier stuff, but sticking with the 45 zone, which would be screaming for its life if asked to do dynamics while driving a BSC circuit. I fully agree with you that BSC as a concept is very good. and it does sound very very good. in general, any well refined (in whichever way you refine it) single driver system is going to sound very good. the BSC just does not get "there" for me in a way that neither any forum post with a technical explaination could.
I feel that in the end it has more to do with my taste in amps than it does with my taste in speaker setups. solid state, few and far between speaks to my soul.
in so far as I lie solidly in the tube/tube emmulating digital/nelson pass first watt/etc. camp. further, i find the lowest powered triodes to have an immense draw for me. the only speakers suitable for those amps are hyper efficient and generally not constricted or corrected in any way. basically curing "weird tone" with differring levels of euphonic tones from the amps. the super speed that the low power triodes can have helps keep responses from being distracting too. a big, nice room is a must or if not in a big nice room, a sense of how to tweak must take its place. I feel this realm has a capability of higher refinement, but there is a time, money, and space, and even lifestyle tradeoff to get this level of refinement. frequently, the potential of alot of systems is not even hinted at, owing to poor implimentation and voicing. people will buy ridiculous components, assemble them, and expect everything to just fall into place. does not happen. certain commercial manufacturers have thought this out and done alot of the tweaking and voicing in house, thereby easing and assuring the process of implimentation, but this thought requires alot of time, money, obsession, and practicality. in the ciy realm anything goes. of course, alot of people just like their own sound, but I find myself disappointed in people who bite off more than they can chew project wise and then blame the components for not being refined enough. so yeah, as in the japanese audio culture, I like the way that different styles of stereo systems are also categorized according to differing levels of "mania" of the hobbyist. that is simply what it takes to deal with the high efficiency stuff. obsession. this differentiation inherently states that everything is a tradeoff. so yes, I am a full supporter to technologies which attempt to bring the aesthetic of high efficiency, artistically refined sound to the masses with ease. everything from mega horns to old ghetto blasters (some of which are quite high efficiency from the eighties to deal with lower powered solid state and battery life...) whichever it is, it is a wonderful experience. I view us as all in the same camp.
let it be known as well, that my most recent projects with the fe87e have shown to be best powered by modest solid state more or less. the horsepower tube amps I have yet to try, as I do not have any around. the 87e tend to not need any correction whatsoever, and remains to have a very involving tone to it.
clark
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