SpinMonster
I am not completely clear on what you are saying, but for what I do follow I think that I agree. EQ can make virtually any situation right if three things are in place: 1) there are enough subs (three is almost a minimum, but seldom would more than five add anything); 2) the drivers must be able to handle the required EQ at the desired SPL (this will tend to drive the cost of the final driver choice); 3) the EQ is setup properly (this is probably the most difficult and important of the three. For the most part it is difficult for a novice to do and it certainly cannot be done by ear.)
Given the above three things and any room with any "type" of subs can work fine. I know that there are many who don't like this position - and that's fine - but it is the one that I have come to after decades of study and experimentation. And it is supported by dozens upon dozens of practitioners in the field. It is not easy to do, nor necessarily inexpensive, but it seems to always work.
I am not completely clear on what you are saying, but for what I do follow I think that I agree. EQ can make virtually any situation right if three things are in place: 1) there are enough subs (three is almost a minimum, but seldom would more than five add anything); 2) the drivers must be able to handle the required EQ at the desired SPL (this will tend to drive the cost of the final driver choice); 3) the EQ is setup properly (this is probably the most difficult and important of the three. For the most part it is difficult for a novice to do and it certainly cannot be done by ear.)
Given the above three things and any room with any "type" of subs can work fine. I know that there are many who don't like this position - and that's fine - but it is the one that I have come to after decades of study and experimentation. And it is supported by dozens upon dozens of practitioners in the field. It is not easy to do, nor necessarily inexpensive, but it seems to always work.
Alpine PXA-H800 Digital sound processor at Crutchfield.com
Sound tuning:
ImprintEQ with three presets and customizable target curves
31-band graphic EQ (front, rear, center) plus 10-band for subwoofer
10-band parametric EQ (front, rear, center) plus 5-band for subwoofer
RoadEQ to help compensate for road noise
high-pass, low-pass, and bandpass crossovers
Bi-Phantom creates a virtual center channel
surround sound decoding, plus Dolby Pro Logic II decoding
8-channel time correction
A mic listens for signals to adjust it all automatically including EQ and time alignment. It sounds stellar with the SEAS 10". I just wanted 'more'.
Sound tuning:
ImprintEQ with three presets and customizable target curves
31-band graphic EQ (front, rear, center) plus 10-band for subwoofer
10-band parametric EQ (front, rear, center) plus 5-band for subwoofer
RoadEQ to help compensate for road noise
high-pass, low-pass, and bandpass crossovers
Bi-Phantom creates a virtual center channel
surround sound decoding, plus Dolby Pro Logic II decoding
8-channel time correction
A mic listens for signals to adjust it all automatically including EQ and time alignment. It sounds stellar with the SEAS 10". I just wanted 'more'.
Last edited:
Horns can provide as much as 6-10 dB more SPL and impart directionality to the upper end of a sub's response, those differences are extreme, and can't be accomplished with EQ.
That said, full sized LF horns won't fit in most vehicles, and occupy too much space for typical living rooms, so compromises are made.
Hi Art
The added SPL can be accomplished with EQ, its called "gain" (assuming of course that your subs can handle it, but that's a different issue and a point that I made early on). EQ cannot yield directivity, but then neither can a reasonable sized horn in a small room below 100 Hz, which is what we are talking about. So while your point is correct in some circumstances, it doesn't fit the current discussion.
A lot of our disagreements come from our different perspectives. I always talk from the small room one and you seem to always come from the large sound reinforcement side. Mostly I see people here in the small room mode rather than the auditorium one. I have the same situation with Tom Danley. Things that I might do in one venue I would certainly not do in the other - to wit, the tapped horn, etc.
The added SPL can be accomplished with EQ, its called "gain" (assuming of course that your subs can handle it, but that's a different issue and a point that I made early on). EQ cannot yield directivity, but then neither can a reasonable sized horn in a small room below 100 Hz, which is what we are talking about. So while your point is correct in some circumstances, it doesn't fit the current discussion.
A lot of our disagreements come from our different perspectives. I always talk from the small room one and you seem to always come from the large sound reinforcement side. Mostly I see people here in the small room mode rather than the auditorium one. I have the same situation with Tom Danley. Things that I might do in one venue I would certainly not do in the other - to wit, the tapped horn, etc.
A horn loaded sub can add 6-10 dB of SPL headroom, quite different than adding 10 dB of gain. Adding 10 dB of gain past the point of linear response (either above amp clipping, or Xmax) just results in more distortion, not much of an "accomplishment" regardless of venue size.
But if you go from one sub in a small room to two identical ones, you increase the headroom by 6db, three identical subs is ~10db, plus you have the added advantage of modal smoothing.
If you need multiple subs distributed around the room to solve the room mode problems, the extra headroom comes as an incidental freebee...what's not to like ?
Art - you always just see things your way, and anyway, I said that one needed sufficient headroom so that linearity was not a problem. Did you miss that part?
"Headroom" is an arbitrary quantity. Your comments only apply if one is talking about a single source, otherwise "headroom" can be anything that I want it to be. Simon has it correct.
"Headroom" is an arbitrary quantity. Your comments only apply if one is talking about a single source, otherwise "headroom" can be anything that I want it to be. Simon has it correct.
If you have money to spend on 2x more drivers for your vented or sealed alignments to match the output capabilities of the horn system. why not add 2 more horns to your system, still retaining +10 db of headroom and gaining modal smoothing
Seriously, enough is enough. How much SPL do you need in a small room? There comes a point where there is more than enough and that's just a waste. Bigger is not always better, there is an optimum. Why not six horns? - where each wall is the mouth of a mega-horn driven by 18" high power drivers. That would work and impress the heck out of your friends. 
Ever been over to the diy section of avsforum?
8x lms ultras (6k in drivers) isnt very uncommon, which is well beyond the point of "enough" for me.
There is one requirement that can easily be gauged. "How much money can you allocate to this project". From there many recomend horns because they aim to extract the most sple (bang for the buck) out of said budget.
Its hard to describe a space accuratly, or an idea of "how much" someone wants. So unless very drastic size restrictions are imposed, its only natural to try an outline tge "loudest" system you can imagine, to avoid end user dissapointmebt.
Plus.... Where is the fun in designing a sealed enclosure...
8x lms ultras (6k in drivers) isnt very uncommon, which is well beyond the point of "enough" for me.
There is one requirement that can easily be gauged. "How much money can you allocate to this project". From there many recomend horns because they aim to extract the most sple (bang for the buck) out of said budget.
Its hard to describe a space accuratly, or an idea of "how much" someone wants. So unless very drastic size restrictions are imposed, its only natural to try an outline tge "loudest" system you can imagine, to avoid end user dissapointmebt.
Plus.... Where is the fun in designing a sealed enclosure...
I know people like that as well - like Tom Nousaine. But they don't actually listen to much music, they listen to recordings of old airplanes and steam locomotives going by. Not my cup of tea.
Also, horns are only cost effective if you build them yourself. That's why there aren't any for sale. From a size, weight and construction standpoint they are losers all around. Give me the low cost, easy construction and small space of a closed box any day. The fun is in listening NOT in building (at least not for me).
Also, horns are only cost effective if you build them yourself. That's why there aren't any for sale. From a size, weight and construction standpoint they are losers all around. Give me the low cost, easy construction and small space of a closed box any day. The fun is in listening NOT in building (at least not for me).
I have a 18" driver with 96db sensitivity in a small closed box. it is on the floor in a corner and is flat to 60cy, from there down I use a 12db/oct boost to counteract the 12db/oct sealed box roll off, and it is now flat to 20cy. This approach does take more power as you go lower, but big drivers have higher sensitivity, so starting with 96db it does not take ungodly amounts of power in a living room to go low and loud. Earl has the right idea.
Its the same result in my house manually with the behringer showing ruler flat on both sub's responses.
5 boxes, 2 venues, and two methods of EQ checked on an analyzer and I cant get a different result. I think the more likely solution is the subs don't sound the same. The SEAS is a better SQ driver.
Sir, the entire issue in this thread is Geddes says all drivers in all enclosures can be EQ'ed to sound the same. High Q driver in a ported box or a low Q driver in a sealed box. He says SQ is a EQ issue. Weight of the cone VS motor strength...irrelevant. When you cant get the SQ you want, its because you EQ'ed it wrong
So if that driver was sealed, horn, or vented, you could EQ them to all have the same SQ? You couldnt tell them apart?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.