Anyone read these?
AES E-Library: The Influence of the Room and of Loudspeaker Position on the Timbre of Reproduced Sound in Domestic Rooms
AES E-Library: A New, Psychoacoustically More Correct Way of Measuring Loudspeaker Frequency Responses
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field, II
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field, III
Dan
AES E-Library: The Influence of the Room and of Loudspeaker Position on the Timbre of Reproduced Sound in Domestic Rooms
AES E-Library: A New, Psychoacoustically More Correct Way of Measuring Loudspeaker Frequency Responses
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field, II
AES E-Library: Perception of Reproduced Sound: Audibility of Individual Reflections in a Complete Sound Field, III
Dan
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Dan -
I went to those references. Hope you can provide us with the essential message from your references about how to measure a room so that tweaking isn't needed after.
Here's one you provided:
"This paper reports on the influence of individual reflection on the auditory localization of a loudspeaker in a small room. The results have shown that the subjects can distinguish between timbre and localization, the spectrum level above 2 kHz for individual reflections determines their influence, and only the first-order floor reflection contributes to localization of the main source. "
How does localization relate to this thread?
I went to those references. Hope you can provide us with the essential message from your references about how to measure a room so that tweaking isn't needed after.
Here's one you provided:
"This paper reports on the influence of individual reflection on the auditory localization of a loudspeaker in a small room. The results have shown that the subjects can distinguish between timbre and localization, the spectrum level above 2 kHz for individual reflections determines their influence, and only the first-order floor reflection contributes to localization of the main source. "
How does localization relate to this thread?
1) I wish I could. My hope was that someone smarter could enlighten me and you.
2)Localization, imaging, soundstage, etc... is a huge issue with headphones--many would say THE ISSUE. Orders of magnitude larger than with loudspeakers. Learning what cues aid and how in these things might be of some value if we intend to improve the listening experience. Crossfeed circuits might help, but they are not the final answer.
Dan
2)Localization, imaging, soundstage, etc... is a huge issue with headphones--many would say THE ISSUE. Orders of magnitude larger than with loudspeakers. Learning what cues aid and how in these things might be of some value if we intend to improve the listening experience. Crossfeed circuits might help, but they are not the final answer.
Dan
It's no so much the measurements is it? It's the design. The measurements should only confirm the design and I find that's generally the case. It's a fair question, but I have published my philosophy - its an open book. If there is a part that you don't understand or disgaree with then lets address that.
Localization with headphones is kind of pointless isn't it? I mena the recodrings are made for loudspeakers where crosstalk between the ears is present. Head[hones don;t have this crosstalk so the image is all inside of the head - there isn't anything else. Unless you add back the crosstalk, imaging just doesn't exist for headphones.
This is, by the way, my current project. Headphones with imaging. And I thought this thread was about headphones.
This is, by the way, my current project. Headphones with imaging. And I thought this thread was about headphones.
I am familiar with this technology, its not really new, but it takes a box of DSP to do it that way. How about doing it passively so that it works on any MP3 player? Thats a different thing altogether. (Ben Bauer did show, and patent, a passive circuit for doing this almost 50 years ago, but it takes almost 20 dB of gain to compensate for. Thats twenty times the power from a small MP3 player!? Not realistic.)
Its actually not too hard to do actively either and it might fit into an MP3 player, but no one seems to want to do this, or at least no one has. I am actually baffled that this hasn't been done.
Try binaural recordings. I don't really think the problem or the fix is in the headphones. I'd say it's in the recording. I've got recordings that are definitely outside the head in all directions and elevation. It would be so easy for studios to make these recordings. You could get the engineer's sound on the go. Some engineers are doing some other things on the computer that do 3D as well.
Dan
Dan
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Not about headphones
Seems courteous to at least check-out the originating post before posting.
Thread is about the puzzle that we seem poor at doing measurements that reliably get the freq response in a room correct (that is, we have to tweak-by-ear after all the mic tests are done)*.
While there are disputes about particulars with headphones, no such generic problem exists there, at least with regard to freq response. So this issue may relate to the way time-course of sound in a room influences the perception of loudness (and, of course, there is no "time course" on that scale of time when talking about in-the-ear headphones).
BTW, localization in headphones does illustrate another concept introduced earlier. There are various ways to generate the location perception and they can't be distinguished by the listener based on localization alone. This is true even when other cues are inconsistent with that localization as is always the case in audio reproduction. Likewise for loudness in a room.
Good that nobody wants to dig-into Godel's Theorem, introduced as a baggy metaphor for this puzzle.
*Geddes' later post reveals that his earlier "Not me" remark was bragging about something different. My sense from his later correction is that he meant something like "buy [certain] speakers and there is no setting up" perhaps adding "in rooms suitable for those speakers". I guess many speakers, no matter how deficient in one way or another, have some rooms which make them pretty flat. But I think you'd have trouble finding people who think any speakers sound the same in every room.
Seems courteous to at least check-out the originating post before posting.
Thread is about the puzzle that we seem poor at doing measurements that reliably get the freq response in a room correct (that is, we have to tweak-by-ear after all the mic tests are done)*.
While there are disputes about particulars with headphones, no such generic problem exists there, at least with regard to freq response. So this issue may relate to the way time-course of sound in a room influences the perception of loudness (and, of course, there is no "time course" on that scale of time when talking about in-the-ear headphones).
BTW, localization in headphones does illustrate another concept introduced earlier. There are various ways to generate the location perception and they can't be distinguished by the listener based on localization alone. This is true even when other cues are inconsistent with that localization as is always the case in audio reproduction. Likewise for loudness in a room.
Good that nobody wants to dig-into Godel's Theorem, introduced as a baggy metaphor for this puzzle.
*Geddes' later post reveals that his earlier "Not me" remark was bragging about something different. My sense from his later correction is that he meant something like "buy [certain] speakers and there is no setting up" perhaps adding "in rooms suitable for those speakers". I guess many speakers, no matter how deficient in one way or another, have some rooms which make them pretty flat. But I think you'd have trouble finding people who think any speakers sound the same in every room.
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Do you really want to go that route Ben? I mean you specifically w/ regards to courteous(read this thread for examples of your unprovoked ill behavior). I've been nice to you--gone out of my way to be just that and redirect your self-righteous thinking and you well know it. I thought that's why you stated 'respect' for me. Check out your first post above and subsequent pages if it is important to you. It all fits like it or not--though maybe that 3rd one goes beyond but it fits in the series. Truly I can't imagine why you'd waste time complaining it--or why I waste time replying to it. Have you read other threads at DIYAudio? They have a tendency to to discuss theory from many angles. You do even in the first post. It's a public forum, and I was by no means attempting to be discourteous. Just the opposite in fact. I guess you consider this your sandbox.
Dan
Some do better than others, Pano
Some times we understand things better with our eyes than with our ears.
So let me give a visual example. Let's pretend we want to light our room in the "least colored" way. Obviously we would start with the most "white" light bulb we can get. If the light bulb isn't "white" enough in all directions, we would shade/absorb the non-white light - even if we could not illuminate the whole room directly any longer. You simply can't have white light on your reading chair if you start with a blue bulb.Next we need to care about the room borders/walls. They need to be as white (or grey) as possible to not color the white light reflected from them. This is no easy task, but it will be easier, if our original light is a spotlight, which leaves the most parts of the room in the dark. Of course now you have to read your book in a certain region of the room, but you are free to have some colored walls outside the light spot.
So having speakers that send the most uncolored sound and don't illuminate the whole room at the same time give you a clear advantage in listening "uncolored" in the widest variety of rooms.
Rudolf
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Yes, thats the intent - pluig and play, no electronics. While listening to speakers is still #1 for me, I have to admit that I spend a lot of time listening to headphones, and the market certainly shows that more people listen to headphones than speakers, so I recently turned my attention to headphones. Having listened to them for decades now I have a pretty good idea what the problems are.
Some do better than others, Pano
Some times we understand things better with our eyes than with our ears.
Next we need to care about the room borders/walls. They need to be as white (or grey) as possible to not color the white light reflected from them. This is no easy task, but it will be easier, if our original light is a spotlight, which leaves the most parts of the room in the dark. Of course now you have to read your book in a certain region of the room, but you are free to have some colored walls outside the light spot.
So having speakers that send the most uncolored sound and don't illuminate the whole room at the same time give you a clear advantage in listening "uncolored" in the widest variety of rooms.
Rudolf
While you can't do much more than illustrate a point by analogy, your example illustrates exactly the opposite of what you intend since your understanding of color is off-color. Have a peek at "color triangle" in Wikipedia.
Three properly selected colors combined together will appear as any color. That's how fluorescent tubes work (at least for the gas inside) and neon lights that look white. They are composed of a few VERY narrow spectral lines which combined look white and they look white no matter how you squint at them.
However, when these lights illuminate colored surfaces, the colors are wacky. Of course, everybody knows not to buy clothes unless you walk over to a window to check the colors.
There is no real analogy to sound. But loosely and metaphorically it is pretty straightforward what I pointed out above: the perception of loudness at different freq can come about from different stimuli, just as white light can come about from different combinations. And you can't hear why it sounds loud no matter how hard you listen.
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