My instinct is life will be DNA based or a mild variation. Water may also be a key part of things and the planets class M as Star Trek would have it.
My dear sir, the idea that things have been answered years ago did not satisfy Pasteur and even less so me. I suspect in your lifetime you will know the answer to this and may say" Nige did see that ". it's not rocket science. There comes a point when a viable family unit needs to exist and by what I know it would be near impossible by random events. Most animals have inbuilt fear of the unknown and spend less time than this took to write to kill it. A hairless ape that is unable to look after itself for upwards of 10 years has no chance. And yet it did.
My dear sir, the idea that things have been answered years ago did not satisfy Pasteur and even less so me. I suspect in your lifetime you will know the answer to this and may say" Nige did see that ". it's not rocket science. There comes a point when a viable family unit needs to exist and by what I know it would be near impossible by random events. Most animals have inbuilt fear of the unknown and spend less time than this took to write to kill it. A hairless ape that is unable to look after itself for upwards of 10 years has no chance. And yet it did.
The family unit problems is simple. The most likely system to survive is a mature group of an animal having sex and them looking after the children. It was joked that Adam and Eve would have no belly buttons which is where we need to be with this. Friends who insist it all makes sense to them say that it isn't that complicated. They seem to think of a slide to advanced beings where a unique event explains it all. This is not unlike the 17 th century view of chemistry where mostly ideas were going in the right direction and yet wildly short of the truth.
What I am surprised to see is we most have become very divorced from reality not to know this. Colleen my other half can not stand the idea that we kill to eat. Yet is more of a meat eater than me. I was a farmer and I learnt to love the animals and learnt how to cause them the least pain when the time came. It made me more sensetive rather than less. I realised the true life of the generations only slightly before me was very much life and/or death. Colleen had a very bad infection in her tooth this week. She now is on her second type of antibiotic. I told her she should realise not so long ago that would have killed her. I don't mean 1830, 1930 or later.
What I am surprised to see is we most have become very divorced from reality not to know this. Colleen my other half can not stand the idea that we kill to eat. Yet is more of a meat eater than me. I was a farmer and I learnt to love the animals and learnt how to cause them the least pain when the time came. It made me more sensetive rather than less. I realised the true life of the generations only slightly before me was very much life and/or death. Colleen had a very bad infection in her tooth this week. She now is on her second type of antibiotic. I told her she should realise not so long ago that would have killed her. I don't mean 1830, 1930 or later.
That only seems so because we live in a era where this seems to be true for some species. There are some political parties that make the traditional family the cornerstone of their agenda. Yet, at the same time, in my own country we are revising the law because more and more 'groups' consist not of a traditional family, but for instance multi-parents (kids having de facto three, four or more parents, either at the same time or sequentially.
About the only thing you can say is that if organisms organize themselves in groups or tribes or flocks, their survival rate appears to improve. How they do that varies. Some birds for example meet up in groups to impregnate each other, get the young to hatch and then again move to a solitary livestyle. Until they meet again.
What form or shape this takes, in whatever species, in the long run, is impossible to predict.
Jan
As far as we know humans as just one example have always lived as we do. Only the toys change. A very fragile creature that always needed perhaps at least 20 variations of the the type to avoid bad mutations.
The virus might be a key to how evolution works. Water might be a key factor. When looking at the universe we might find it surprisingly similar to Earth. I suggest the link is the likelihood of it happening. This perhaps makes the universe a small place and time alone makes it seem vast.
At this moment people can not see that the very mild variations we see in fruit flies are not the whole picture. We do not go fly to horse without some bridge. As far as I know there are/is none. If fosiles show what they do they should show a hint of this. They do not. We even see plenty of detail like feathers when Dinosaurs.
I gave a lift to a lady who took the whole hour to explain to me what a wonderful mind Richard Dawking is. I said nothing. The more she unfolded the story the more sad I was. She was very frightened. I thought I should try hard to arrive at the correct story or at least good science. The story of spontaneous generation inspired me. Instead of looking at an exact idea I saw fear. The answer to Pasteur's riddle was to reduce fear. Sadly the pompous killed millions of people by strongly rejecting his ideas. Mostly medicine was overseen by pompous greedy idiots. Dr. Ignaz Semmelweiss is a name of note who is largely unknown, one of the good guys.
Spelling is a game rather than a science. It is a club of shared values. It shows me people can find good reasons to do it a bad way. When evolution I think it deserves higher standards than we choose to believe or accept things. I hope a friend of a friend of someone who could change the world reads this. It could be the no belly buttons they look at.
A sort of joke has it aliens mistook motorcars as the dominant lifeform on Earth and us as a parasite. They put that right.
I have no idea at what point in history humans became viable ( as unlikely as fussion reactors that we could self create ) . A similar creature that could use an iPhone were around 200 000 years ago perhaps. An evolution within the species looks to have happened and the animal changed to one that loves tools. It built caves. I have no doubt that evolution theory is 100% correct when saying this. I doubt the change in DNA would be vast.
My other speculation is the first humans were well adapted to a region of good constant temperature with plenty to eat that required little effort to get their needs. As is the nature of humans some didn't like the place and thought the more dangerous places worth a try. They saw the need for some protection and food needed to be harvested until the new place found. Already they are making the variation needed for evolution. The people who came with them by DNA alone could survive. They could not know this. It just was what they required they had. If not the journey would have killed them. This might explain why skills we North people have are different and why we are not the best runners. Each found it's better place to live. That's fine and I think only a fool would say it's wrong. It still doesn't tell us how a viable family unit comes about from a few mutations. As some say, the tree of life has most of it's branches missing. One needs no interest in religion or whatever to see this problem. You don't even need answers, you do need the question.
The mistake many make it to say this 99% correct picture is complete. 1% is the fact the early familly unit is needed to make this happen. Anyone who looks at the culture of Apes knows this would not happen. I see no other branch of the tree we could come from. Apes are killers. The problem is to quote a certain lady, " It's Apes all the way down ".
The Poem of Atlantis seemed a silly tale and even it's author allowed for that. Seems today it is fact. The evidence does show a very advanced culture that simple fate killed. From the little we know the culture was kind and respected wowen. They seemed to live a life we all could love and not need much more. The houses an inspiration. A trading people living lives much as we do who I am sure could have adapted to 18th century life inside of 10 years. The buildings were like that period in many details except I guess glass. What a shame. 30 years ago most would have laughed at this or said the evidence is not to be found. It was found when the destruction of Crete was questioned, Crete was not Atlantis if asking.
The virus might be a key to how evolution works. Water might be a key factor. When looking at the universe we might find it surprisingly similar to Earth. I suggest the link is the likelihood of it happening. This perhaps makes the universe a small place and time alone makes it seem vast.
At this moment people can not see that the very mild variations we see in fruit flies are not the whole picture. We do not go fly to horse without some bridge. As far as I know there are/is none. If fosiles show what they do they should show a hint of this. They do not. We even see plenty of detail like feathers when Dinosaurs.
I gave a lift to a lady who took the whole hour to explain to me what a wonderful mind Richard Dawking is. I said nothing. The more she unfolded the story the more sad I was. She was very frightened. I thought I should try hard to arrive at the correct story or at least good science. The story of spontaneous generation inspired me. Instead of looking at an exact idea I saw fear. The answer to Pasteur's riddle was to reduce fear. Sadly the pompous killed millions of people by strongly rejecting his ideas. Mostly medicine was overseen by pompous greedy idiots. Dr. Ignaz Semmelweiss is a name of note who is largely unknown, one of the good guys.
Spelling is a game rather than a science. It is a club of shared values. It shows me people can find good reasons to do it a bad way. When evolution I think it deserves higher standards than we choose to believe or accept things. I hope a friend of a friend of someone who could change the world reads this. It could be the no belly buttons they look at.
A sort of joke has it aliens mistook motorcars as the dominant lifeform on Earth and us as a parasite. They put that right.
I have no idea at what point in history humans became viable ( as unlikely as fussion reactors that we could self create ) . A similar creature that could use an iPhone were around 200 000 years ago perhaps. An evolution within the species looks to have happened and the animal changed to one that loves tools. It built caves. I have no doubt that evolution theory is 100% correct when saying this. I doubt the change in DNA would be vast.
My other speculation is the first humans were well adapted to a region of good constant temperature with plenty to eat that required little effort to get their needs. As is the nature of humans some didn't like the place and thought the more dangerous places worth a try. They saw the need for some protection and food needed to be harvested until the new place found. Already they are making the variation needed for evolution. The people who came with them by DNA alone could survive. They could not know this. It just was what they required they had. If not the journey would have killed them. This might explain why skills we North people have are different and why we are not the best runners. Each found it's better place to live. That's fine and I think only a fool would say it's wrong. It still doesn't tell us how a viable family unit comes about from a few mutations. As some say, the tree of life has most of it's branches missing. One needs no interest in religion or whatever to see this problem. You don't even need answers, you do need the question.
The mistake many make it to say this 99% correct picture is complete. 1% is the fact the early familly unit is needed to make this happen. Anyone who looks at the culture of Apes knows this would not happen. I see no other branch of the tree we could come from. Apes are killers. The problem is to quote a certain lady, " It's Apes all the way down ".
The Poem of Atlantis seemed a silly tale and even it's author allowed for that. Seems today it is fact. The evidence does show a very advanced culture that simple fate killed. From the little we know the culture was kind and respected wowen. They seemed to live a life we all could love and not need much more. The houses an inspiration. A trading people living lives much as we do who I am sure could have adapted to 18th century life inside of 10 years. The buildings were like that period in many details except I guess glass. What a shame. 30 years ago most would have laughed at this or said the evidence is not to be found. It was found when the destruction of Crete was questioned, Crete was not Atlantis if asking.
The fossil record will never divulge every step and branch in the tree of evolution. Fossilization is a highly improbable event, as it is a waste of food and in nature the dead are eaten by and large. Simpler forms without skeletons are much less likely to survive, plate tectonics grinds away at the evidence and we find fossils mostly by random luck, with rich deposits getting most of the attention. When you go back before homo sapiens there are a bare handful of incomplete fossils representing 5 million years of hominid existence.
Science is the cycle of collecting observations, formulating hypotheses to link and explain the observations, experimentally testing the hypotheses, rinse and repeat. It is nearly impossible to run experiments beyond chemistry that can test the paths evolution took millions and billions of years in the past here on earth given the unknown environmental details that steered the ship. So the study of past evolution will always be incomplete, tentative and subject to large modifications as new fossil evidence comes into view.
Science is the cycle of collecting observations, formulating hypotheses to link and explain the observations, experimentally testing the hypotheses, rinse and repeat. It is nearly impossible to run experiments beyond chemistry that can test the paths evolution took millions and billions of years in the past here on earth given the unknown environmental details that steered the ship. So the study of past evolution will always be incomplete, tentative and subject to large modifications as new fossil evidence comes into view.
The problem with that is fossils show almost nothing rather than links lost. A book that is 99% white paper. There is one possibility I thought could work. Earth is a zoo. Somewhere a far more mature planet is dying. Earth was found and looked to be OK. Thus all the things happened, but not here. The vastness of space makes me think that this is unreal. We still have the same problems of family units, however the no fossils is solved. I even speculated that the Dinosaurs were to clear the forests. An engineered animal from a culture a little down the road from Dolly the Sheep. Great book, not good science.
No one picked up my point that due to elements being the same throughout the universe it is a very small place. Only time makes it seem large. The point is DNA might be the only viable device for life. Thus unrelated events might produce highly related outcomes. There is a nasty side to this. We may be at the point in history when the fact we exist is broadcast to the universe due to how these things link at the Quantum level. We and all the other animals might make very nice food for another race.
I have taken the idea down to one simple idea. When we get away from bacteria there needs to be a family of some sorts to make it work. At some point in time a complex way of living became the usual way. Finally humans which are almost impossibly fragile. We would have had to live in a situation which would be highly suitable to get the numbers up. The simple fact is unlike a horse is we can not run at our mothers side 4 hours after birth. We also are almost useless at getting high into trees to keep us safer. It all seems so unlikely. And then the problem that no ape would tollerate us if we became a mutant form. Bacteria might even be a created lifeform to solve a problem and not part of evolution. Unlikely, not impossible. The usual reason seems more likely that it is a jump from simple compounds. However that looks a bit difficult as the mitochondria come into it.
I refered to fear as to why people do not look at this as I have. To say it again. If they truely wanted to look at the question they might say due to being so long ago they doubt it can be answered which is a highly correct answer. No one I met ever did say that. In fact they answer like when I was a child trying to cover a minor crime.
The only reason I say about this is, it is so like a " Flat Earth". For now we can not answer the questions. However like looking at where the Sun casts it's shadow we might infer that a very simple idea might be the real one. If we were to construct highly intelligent computers we might be shocked how this question would be answered. We might feel such fools and the answer was so easy.
I think Lord Kelvin calculated a highly unlikely age for the Sun. At least it was the first step. It was a big leap all the same. It would cover the important phase of life on Earth. The total Ice Age is said to have had eddy pools that just kept things going, magnetic I would guess. I would buy that. It looks that this period did exist and afterwards conditions were the ones more like today. As best I understand life existed that had made very little progress. Afterwards everything suited far better. An electronic analogy is lightbulb to triode. The radio acive stuff would have helped him understand.
I think the triode was the most remarkable thing ever on this planet we caused. A whole science had to catch up with it. Some say the transistor is of another world. No need, the selenium cell and triode say what the next step should be. The fact we made the leap still seems so unlikely. One source says the transistor is a 800 year leap. It pleases me they say it.
No one picked up my point that due to elements being the same throughout the universe it is a very small place. Only time makes it seem large. The point is DNA might be the only viable device for life. Thus unrelated events might produce highly related outcomes. There is a nasty side to this. We may be at the point in history when the fact we exist is broadcast to the universe due to how these things link at the Quantum level. We and all the other animals might make very nice food for another race.
I have taken the idea down to one simple idea. When we get away from bacteria there needs to be a family of some sorts to make it work. At some point in time a complex way of living became the usual way. Finally humans which are almost impossibly fragile. We would have had to live in a situation which would be highly suitable to get the numbers up. The simple fact is unlike a horse is we can not run at our mothers side 4 hours after birth. We also are almost useless at getting high into trees to keep us safer. It all seems so unlikely. And then the problem that no ape would tollerate us if we became a mutant form. Bacteria might even be a created lifeform to solve a problem and not part of evolution. Unlikely, not impossible. The usual reason seems more likely that it is a jump from simple compounds. However that looks a bit difficult as the mitochondria come into it.
I refered to fear as to why people do not look at this as I have. To say it again. If they truely wanted to look at the question they might say due to being so long ago they doubt it can be answered which is a highly correct answer. No one I met ever did say that. In fact they answer like when I was a child trying to cover a minor crime.
The only reason I say about this is, it is so like a " Flat Earth". For now we can not answer the questions. However like looking at where the Sun casts it's shadow we might infer that a very simple idea might be the real one. If we were to construct highly intelligent computers we might be shocked how this question would be answered. We might feel such fools and the answer was so easy.
I think Lord Kelvin calculated a highly unlikely age for the Sun. At least it was the first step. It was a big leap all the same. It would cover the important phase of life on Earth. The total Ice Age is said to have had eddy pools that just kept things going, magnetic I would guess. I would buy that. It looks that this period did exist and afterwards conditions were the ones more like today. As best I understand life existed that had made very little progress. Afterwards everything suited far better. An electronic analogy is lightbulb to triode. The radio acive stuff would have helped him understand.
I think the triode was the most remarkable thing ever on this planet we caused. A whole science had to catch up with it. Some say the transistor is of another world. No need, the selenium cell and triode say what the next step should be. The fact we made the leap still seems so unlikely. One source says the transistor is a 800 year leap. It pleases me they say it.
Risking to to have misunderstood those long posts written in advanced english, I think you might be interested in this:Has Culture Replaced Biological Evolution as the Driving Force of Change? - The Daily Galaxy --Great Discoveries Channel
The question is in which way our species has taken control of its own evolution? Does it have to be genome tweaking? How about a different Ape with identical phenotype but with different understandig of natural and supernatural? After all, what is the essence of our species?
The question is in which way our species has taken control of its own evolution? Does it have to be genome tweaking? How about a different Ape with identical phenotype but with different understandig of natural and supernatural? After all, what is the essence of our species?
The big differnce is the soft forehead and the lack of strength in our limbs compared with other apes. Jan says we need to have a soft forhead to go through the birth canal. We do, apes don't. The very big deal is apes kill everything. We would be unlikely to be allowed to live. The devellopement of our higher thinking skills need us to be born very unsafe. It needs a protected prototype group in an ideal region with very little to harm us to build up a viable tribe. Conservation proves how easy it is to find an animal no longer can survive. A big strong one.
I like the Dyson thinking in your link. I suspect it is one step more complex than is required. It says that the proto bacteria ( my words ) were more able to exchange parts ( my words ). I really doubt bacteria have a problem with that. It's great to see a time before time as we thought it to be. Less smug and more science.
Yeah, seems about right, I don't remember those 70's university years very well though ...
What this thread did remind me of was that I can't derive most of the calculations and observations for all the stuff that we just know from authorities.. Probably if I lived in the flat earth days I would have been fine with flatness! So the important thing is to choose your authorities well. I did learn that in university!
I think the current flat earth folks want to feel that they are clever and think for themselves, and succeed in proving the opposite.
Or:
They are like the people who discuss how to deal with zombies. It's just fun to have a serious discussion about something silly.
What this thread did remind me of was that I can't derive most of the calculations and observations for all the stuff that we just know from authorities.. Probably if I lived in the flat earth days I would have been fine with flatness! So the important thing is to choose your authorities well. I did learn that in university!
I think the current flat earth folks want to feel that they are clever and think for themselves, and succeed in proving the opposite.
Or:
They are like the people who discuss how to deal with zombies. It's just fun to have a serious discussion about something silly.
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The funny thing in history is how quickly people change horses when science adds a new proven idea. The things that last are the difficult questions. For example. Why is light speed the number it is. I would suspect it's due to the average density of the universe mass. If so it could be slightly and mostly unimportantly different in the voids of space. Right or wrong I never read a thing about it. All I am saying is the question is good. If like me you get to read a 1900 Britanica you would have no idea how the world was about to change. However the science as shown was of the highest order. Not least magnetic materials. I was shocked.
The ones who change horses are always super imformed. I guess to cover their tracks. At least if one didn't have a great thought it makes it seem they so easilly could have. It is said Wilde said to Shaw about this. Alas it looks it could be myth.
When I read a book on Chaos theory I took away one idea. The universe is an example of a linear system that came from Chaos. In the authors opinion this makes life very hard as we seek linear laws to see better. As the science grows the defects show through. One still tries to use these laws. If understanding that it can change in an instant no problem. Aircraft wings behave like this. Although most fit standard thinking there is more to it than just making a bigger one. However each that is made to the limits of our skills will work exactly as another of the same. It's good enough.
Round Earth is easier. It's good science.
The ones who change horses are always super imformed. I guess to cover their tracks. At least if one didn't have a great thought it makes it seem they so easilly could have. It is said Wilde said to Shaw about this. Alas it looks it could be myth.
When I read a book on Chaos theory I took away one idea. The universe is an example of a linear system that came from Chaos. In the authors opinion this makes life very hard as we seek linear laws to see better. As the science grows the defects show through. One still tries to use these laws. If understanding that it can change in an instant no problem. Aircraft wings behave like this. Although most fit standard thinking there is more to it than just making a bigger one. However each that is made to the limits of our skills will work exactly as another of the same. It's good enough.
Round Earth is easier. It's good science.
Here is an example of an idea that needs a bit of thought. I was asked why Neumann cutting lathes have a 3.18 uS time constant. Some say to stop the lathe burning out due to RIAA 75 uS boost. As the inductance of the lathe will rise I had doubts, it may have a big phase shift at 50 kHz so not saying impossible. My feeling is it made the cutting easier and that's it. Some try to match this EQ. As most LP's are judged using a standard RIAA amplifer I see no value in this debate except to note it.
It is said stampers of FFRR 78's can show up to 32 kHz ( circa 1950 ). Some playing with maths said that it should be half that. Then it was clear. Second harmonic distortion. I doubt it is in the cut, easilly in the playback. This came from the Neumann question. I think Ortofon have similar filters.
It matters nothing if right or wrong. The question is interesting. The FFRR cutting head was at first a Decca Sonar. I know as I built an EQ box for Colin Brown of Decca who knew I would love to know this. If interested although active-passive ( 75 uS etc passive ) I did the active bits ( 3180/318 ) like a combination lock. It could do any EQ known +/- 1 db and many that never existed. Colin found many of the latter did exist. It is very odd hearing exact EQ. Suddenly things sound less antique.
It is said stampers of FFRR 78's can show up to 32 kHz ( circa 1950 ). Some playing with maths said that it should be half that. Then it was clear. Second harmonic distortion. I doubt it is in the cut, easilly in the playback. This came from the Neumann question. I think Ortofon have similar filters.
It matters nothing if right or wrong. The question is interesting. The FFRR cutting head was at first a Decca Sonar. I know as I built an EQ box for Colin Brown of Decca who knew I would love to know this. If interested although active-passive ( 75 uS etc passive ) I did the active bits ( 3180/318 ) like a combination lock. It could do any EQ known +/- 1 db and many that never existed. Colin found many of the latter did exist. It is very odd hearing exact EQ. Suddenly things sound less antique.
Some of the later, not much of the former. Most of the reasons are other.
And then there are the people like me, who are fascinated that most people don't think for themselves.
In this thread, and many like it, it just comes down to "My knowledge is better than your knowledge".
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