For my first ever speaker build, I'm interested in some small speakers for a bookshelf system in my living room/kitchen area. I have a couple 20 watt 1970s Japanese receivers and we mostly listen to folk, bluegrass, spoken word, and occasionally rock or classical. This is a literal bookshelf, so right up against a wall. There isn't a hi-fi system anywhere in the house, so the bar here is VERY low, it just has to be better than the speaker on a phone or iPad.
I have a very limited budget of $100 or else the wife will just put up the silver monstrosities from an all-in-one system someone left in our basement. On the other hand, I have lots of spare particle board salvaged from old bookshelves and access to a table saw and plenty of clamps. I can solder too. If I absolutely need to buy some plywood or MDF, it has to come out of the budget.
I'm trying to follow Paul Carmody's good advice (diy-faqs-provendesigns - undefinition) and stick with proven designs. I found some possibilities and I need help deciding between them:
1. uFonken with FF-85WK - Uses almost the whole budget on two drivers, so needs to be built from particle board and scrap wood on hand. I'm not sure about the performance close to a wall.
2. FF-85WK reference box - the driver data sheet has plans for a 3.5L bass reflex cabinet that could presumably be built from particle board. No crossover or filter, but less need for BSC against the wall?
3. ZaphAudio ZBM4 - two way design gets us a 4" driver, spends some budget on crossover components. Warns about use against a wall, but has a modified crossover for that situation.
4. ZaphAudio BS3 - cheap drivers, but needs some filter components, includes a circuit for against a wall. Warns very strongly against full range use without a sub and sub crossover.
5. Del Sol (DelSol - Aura NS3-194-8E - Inexpensive DIY Fullrange Bookshelf Speaker) with Aura NS3-193-8A - not the exact driver specified, but epic simplicity. It's tempting to reshape the box to bookshelf format and a front vent.
6. Audio Nirvana Classic 3 Ferrite - Spends every last penny on drivers. Presumably there's a reference bass reflex cabinet design for these that the AN folks will send me? or putting the parameters in various online calculators got me something like 8L for Vb which seems doable around 5x8x13".
As a newbie, I don't have any good way to judge between these various options. Can I get any free advice on how you would rank those choices? What challenges am I overlooking completely on these? Is there a better option that I haven't found yet? Parts Express C-note kit?
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
-Neil N0FN
I have a very limited budget of $100 or else the wife will just put up the silver monstrosities from an all-in-one system someone left in our basement. On the other hand, I have lots of spare particle board salvaged from old bookshelves and access to a table saw and plenty of clamps. I can solder too. If I absolutely need to buy some plywood or MDF, it has to come out of the budget.
I'm trying to follow Paul Carmody's good advice (diy-faqs-provendesigns - undefinition) and stick with proven designs. I found some possibilities and I need help deciding between them:
1. uFonken with FF-85WK - Uses almost the whole budget on two drivers, so needs to be built from particle board and scrap wood on hand. I'm not sure about the performance close to a wall.
2. FF-85WK reference box - the driver data sheet has plans for a 3.5L bass reflex cabinet that could presumably be built from particle board. No crossover or filter, but less need for BSC against the wall?
3. ZaphAudio ZBM4 - two way design gets us a 4" driver, spends some budget on crossover components. Warns about use against a wall, but has a modified crossover for that situation.
4. ZaphAudio BS3 - cheap drivers, but needs some filter components, includes a circuit for against a wall. Warns very strongly against full range use without a sub and sub crossover.
5. Del Sol (DelSol - Aura NS3-194-8E - Inexpensive DIY Fullrange Bookshelf Speaker) with Aura NS3-193-8A - not the exact driver specified, but epic simplicity. It's tempting to reshape the box to bookshelf format and a front vent.
6. Audio Nirvana Classic 3 Ferrite - Spends every last penny on drivers. Presumably there's a reference bass reflex cabinet design for these that the AN folks will send me? or putting the parameters in various online calculators got me something like 8L for Vb which seems doable around 5x8x13".
As a newbie, I don't have any good way to judge between these various options. Can I get any free advice on how you would rank those choices? What challenges am I overlooking completely on these? Is there a better option that I haven't found yet? Parts Express C-note kit?
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
-Neil N0FN
My vote would be for a pair of these:
Markaudio CHP-70 Gen2 Natural Paper
in the slim version (page 2) of these:
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dKal-El703-301113.pdf
I haven't heard anything that comes close for the money. Your 20 watts should be plenty.
Mike
Markaudio CHP-70 Gen2 Natural Paper
in the slim version (page 2) of these:
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/CGR-dKal-El703-301113.pdf
I haven't heard anything that comes close for the money. Your 20 watts should be plenty.
Mike
there's a good option on the site you started from:
Classix II - undefinition
Ranking your list - I'd avoid "Full Range" drivers unless you're sure you like their sound (tend to be fairly Hot & uneven in the upper register)
For two ways, I'd go for a 5" or 6" woofer to get reasonable bass performance
Classix II - undefinition
Ranking your list - I'd avoid "Full Range" drivers unless you're sure you like their sound (tend to be fairly Hot & uneven in the upper register)
For two ways, I'd go for a 5" or 6" woofer to get reasonable bass performance
C-Notes. Or you might be able to build Overnight Sensations for under $100 if you don't buy the knock-down cabinet and use PVC for the port.
For either, you probably want to build the cabinet with a front-facing port if put on the shelf against the wall.
For other proven designs, keep an eye on Parts Express Refurbished and Open Box listings and eBay. I have been able to get a lot of drivers for 50% of the new cost, most of them being "like-new".
For either, you probably want to build the cabinet with a front-facing port if put on the shelf against the wall.
For other proven designs, keep an eye on Parts Express Refurbished and Open Box listings and eBay. I have been able to get a lot of drivers for 50% of the new cost, most of them being "like-new".
another good option (Although I'd put the port on the front for a bookshelf):
SB Acoustics :: Eka Kit
SB Acoustics :: Eka Kit
AFAIC going FR on such a limited budget is the way to go. 1 good driver per box instead of 2 cheaper ones plus XO.
The FF85wk in the uFonkenWK is good (a favorite of mine), and should work fine against a wall. That would help with the lack of low bass. I’d avoid the Fostex recommended boxes, the best are OK, the worst are just not very good.
If you aren’t counting shipping a set of Pluvia 7 ($45 each). At the expense of a larger box (7 litre vrs 2) you can get similar extention in a sealed box — well suited to the room gain you’ll get from your placement. It is voiced much the same as the pricier (and better — in ways that likely would go unrealized with the electronics you are planning to use) Alpair 7.3. They do have better bass potential than most 4” (included most 4” midWoofers). That requires a bigger box thou.
I knew there was a reason i didn’t pursue looking at the AN3. With an Fs ~155 Hz it is going to be lacking in bass… might make a good midTweeter in a WAW thou.
I beleve the 2 Aura 3” are quite different, but the NS3-193-8A you cn get goes fine in a small (1.5-2.5 litre) sealed box.
The CHP70 is quite nice but has a shelved down top end which you may find a deficincy (i don’t mind, you don’t really notice until you directly compare to something that isn’t (ie similar 1st generation CHP or EL70). It is cheaper than the Pluvia. I heard the overnite sensations compared to the EL70, the latter was decidely better.
Particle board may not be as “pretty” as MDF but is a better speaker material. A sheet of good plywood might eat your entire budget.
dave
The FF85wk in the uFonkenWK is good (a favorite of mine), and should work fine against a wall. That would help with the lack of low bass. I’d avoid the Fostex recommended boxes, the best are OK, the worst are just not very good.
If you aren’t counting shipping a set of Pluvia 7 ($45 each). At the expense of a larger box (7 litre vrs 2) you can get similar extention in a sealed box — well suited to the room gain you’ll get from your placement. It is voiced much the same as the pricier (and better — in ways that likely would go unrealized with the electronics you are planning to use) Alpair 7.3. They do have better bass potential than most 4” (included most 4” midWoofers). That requires a bigger box thou.
I knew there was a reason i didn’t pursue looking at the AN3. With an Fs ~155 Hz it is going to be lacking in bass… might make a good midTweeter in a WAW thou.
I beleve the 2 Aura 3” are quite different, but the NS3-193-8A you cn get goes fine in a small (1.5-2.5 litre) sealed box.
The CHP70 is quite nice but has a shelved down top end which you may find a deficincy (i don’t mind, you don’t really notice until you directly compare to something that isn’t (ie similar 1st generation CHP or EL70). It is cheaper than the Pluvia. I heard the overnite sensations compared to the EL70, the latter was decidely better.
Particle board may not be as “pretty” as MDF but is a better speaker material. A sheet of good plywood might eat your entire budget.
dave
Thanks everyone for the suggestions, keep them coming!
I'm taking a look at the overnight sensations and C-notes for other 2-way options. I am slightly swayed by the argument to go with a more costly single driver rather than two lesser drivers and additional circuitry. Can anyone say more about the sound quality trade-offs between driver cost/quality and the flexibility available in a 2-way design? I don't see designs with 5 or 6 inch woofers at these prices, so the design advantage of a 4" MT over a 4" FR seems limited?
I'm crossing off the Del Sol for the drivers being NLA, the AN3 for not having much bass by themselves, the Fostex boxes for not being great, and the BS3 for needing a sub. I'm adding the CGR/CHP70 and something with the Pluvia 7 based on your recommendations. (I had completely overlooked the very reasonable Mark Audio 4" drivers). The contenders are:
1. uFonkenWK
3. ZBM4
7. C-Note
8. Overnight Sensation
9. CGR/CHP-70
10. Pluvia 7 in some cabinet
Dave, I haven't figured out the Planet10/FrugalPhile landscape yet. Can you suggest what you would put the Pluvia 7s in? On the Madisound page they suggest sealed boxes at 4.3 and 8 liters with F3=100Hz and a 7L vented at F3=57Hz. I think I read that you were suggesting it for the same cabinets as the EL70: Mar-Kel70? Or even smaller mMar-Kel70? CGR Mar-Kel70 (except side vents?)
I'm leaning towards the CGR CHP70 for the very simple build with no need to purchase a separate port tube. Just two drivers, some binding posts, some felt (do I have to buy this or can I fake it somehow?), and loads of cutting and gluing.
Thanks again to everyone for helping out with my very basic questions.
-Neil N0FN
I'm taking a look at the overnight sensations and C-notes for other 2-way options. I am slightly swayed by the argument to go with a more costly single driver rather than two lesser drivers and additional circuitry. Can anyone say more about the sound quality trade-offs between driver cost/quality and the flexibility available in a 2-way design? I don't see designs with 5 or 6 inch woofers at these prices, so the design advantage of a 4" MT over a 4" FR seems limited?
I'm crossing off the Del Sol for the drivers being NLA, the AN3 for not having much bass by themselves, the Fostex boxes for not being great, and the BS3 for needing a sub. I'm adding the CGR/CHP70 and something with the Pluvia 7 based on your recommendations. (I had completely overlooked the very reasonable Mark Audio 4" drivers). The contenders are:
1. uFonkenWK
3. ZBM4
7. C-Note
8. Overnight Sensation
9. CGR/CHP-70
10. Pluvia 7 in some cabinet
Dave, I haven't figured out the Planet10/FrugalPhile landscape yet. Can you suggest what you would put the Pluvia 7s in? On the Madisound page they suggest sealed boxes at 4.3 and 8 liters with F3=100Hz and a 7L vented at F3=57Hz. I think I read that you were suggesting it for the same cabinets as the EL70: Mar-Kel70? Or even smaller mMar-Kel70? CGR Mar-Kel70 (except side vents?)
I'm leaning towards the CGR CHP70 for the very simple build with no need to purchase a separate port tube. Just two drivers, some binding posts, some felt (do I have to buy this or can I fake it somehow?), and loads of cutting and gluing.
Thanks again to everyone for helping out with my very basic questions.
-Neil N0FN
This is truly a good value kit for a pair of 6.5" woofers and ...etc.
Caritas Full Kit, (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
Caritas Full Kit, (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
. Do you think that the components could be bought separately for that same cost? That web page makes it sound unlikely.
Thanks for the help everyone. I've just bought some MarkAudio Pluvia Sevens to put into some small Planet 10 Fonken-style enclosures.
I've cut the particle board and I'm currently sanding off the vinyl finish on the particle board in places where they will be face-glued, and then I'll start gluing up the boxes. I'll try to take some pictures and include them on this thread.
Thanks again for helping the one-millionth newbie who wants to build something cheap.
-Neil N0FN
I've cut the particle board and I'm currently sanding off the vinyl finish on the particle board in places where they will be face-glued, and then I'll start gluing up the boxes. I'll try to take some pictures and include them on this thread.
Thanks again for helping the one-millionth newbie who wants to build something cheap.
-Neil N0FN
There are lots of 4” FRs with similar bass capability as dedicated midBasses. The Pluvia 7 should be exceptional (i’m basing that on how the EL70 did).
If you can fit them, Frugel-Horn Mk3 or the Pensil. Standmounts from 5-13 litres. The mPlu-Ken7 is 4.7 litres (+ vent), its siblings up to 13 litres — including the CGR PluKen7.
I’d have to check anyone elses alignments before i can say anything about them.
Sealed sim attached. Typically you target for a Q from 0.5 to 0.707 depending on how much room lift they will have. Theoretical value can be shrunk abit to counter the apparent increase of box volume from the damping.
dave
Attachments
Thanks to chrisb for his description in some other thread about how to assemble the slot ports first as a unit and then glue them on to the other panels.
Do you all do "build threads" around here? In other hobbies, I've gotten invaluable advice by posting in-progress pictures of my rookie ways and getting suggestions from more experience peopled. If it's too annoying here on DiyAudio, let me know and I'll stop.
Test fitting the bottom panel, spacers, and the baffle sitting above them:
Gluing-up the spacers with a scrap board on top:
Gluing the "shelf" piece on top of the spacers. The baffle glues into the notch there between the front of the shelf and the top of the spacers. There's an impressive amount of gluing surface in this design
At the back, the matching opening butts against the back panel and forms the entrance to the ports:
Here's my first attempt at gluing three panels into a "corner cube". It took me about five clamps and I'm still not sure how flush things are going to be when I take the clamps off. The marked centerline is for locating the lower brace.
Do you all do "build threads" around here? In other hobbies, I've gotten invaluable advice by posting in-progress pictures of my rookie ways and getting suggestions from more experience peopled. If it's too annoying here on DiyAudio, let me know and I'll stop.
Test fitting the bottom panel, spacers, and the baffle sitting above them:
Gluing-up the spacers with a scrap board on top:
Gluing the "shelf" piece on top of the spacers. The baffle glues into the notch there between the front of the shelf and the top of the spacers. There's an impressive amount of gluing surface in this design
At the back, the matching opening butts against the back panel and forms the entrance to the ports:
Here's my first attempt at gluing three panels into a "corner cube". It took me about five clamps and I'm still not sure how flush things are going to be when I take the clamps off. The marked centerline is for locating the lower brace.
And thanks everyone for the C-Note recommendations. I've been reading reviews and it looks like I would have been very happy with their sound. I'm even skeptical at this point that what I'm making will be their equal, but I guess I really wanted to make some sawdust.
Maybe I'll get to A/B these mongrel mPlu-Ken7's against a pair of them someday!
Maybe I'll get to A/B these mongrel mPlu-Ken7's against a pair of them someday!
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