I used mine in ~30L sealed but running full range (no subs). Bass is very full and rather extended when used in a small room. If you don't need the extension then 15L should be sufficient, it doesn't seem to give much hump from the higher Q in WinISD. Use a well braced cabinet, I'm sure that mine resonate audibly and the front is 36mm thick! The drivers seem to have quite a lot of 'energy' in the lower midrange somehow.
I used 18mm MDF + 9mm ply for most the cab (attempt at constrained layer damping), 36mm MDF for the lower baffle and 18mm MDF + 18mm LBL for the upper baffle. It's a bigger cabinet though, but my reccomendation would be to put plenty of braces in, divide all internal panels up as small and irregularly as you can. It's the higher frequencies (200-500Hz) that are potentially going to cause you issues 
Wont you still have some preamp and atleast one power amp big enough to drive the woofers, mid and tweeter?
So all you are now looking at is 2 small amps for the mid and hf. You could even DIY this using the 3886/4870 like this link
A4 Power Amplifier
An active XO will be a lot cheaper and easier to tune than an equivalent passive XO.
My guess is that a 3 way active system (pre amp, active XO, 100W, 30W and 10W power amps) wont be much more expensive than a 3 way passive system (preamp, passive XO, 150W power amp).
We won't use a pre-amp + power amp to drive these speakers, we'll use a normal 2x85-100W Yamaha 2-in-1 stereo amplifier.
However, we are looking to buy a used Yamaha AX-592 or so with pre-out/main-in connections instead of a new Yamaha AX-497 that lacks those connections.
I'm aware of the advantages of active, since I've done this before in-car, but we want these speakers to be able to play (without sub) on a single 2-in-1 amplifier and one of the reasons for this project was to learn about passive crossovers, so active is not an option.
I am thinking about embedding a "DIRECT / -x dB" switch to the back of the mid+tweeter cabinets so we can use them in "-x dB" mode when using a single 2-in-1 amplifier to power woofers+mids+tweeters, but have the "DIRECT" mode when we want to use a separate, more audiophile but less powerful power-amp on the mids+tweeters in the future (Xenia would love to get/build a nice tube-amp in the future and she also owns an oldskool Sansui AU-555a she wants to restore one day...).
Isabelle
However, we are looking to buy a used Yamaha AX-592 or so with pre-out/main-in connections instead of a new Yamaha AX-497 that lacks those connections.
I'm aware of the advantages of active, since I've done this before in-car, but we want these speakers to be able to play (without sub) on a single 2-in-1 amplifier and one of the reasons for this project was to learn about passive crossovers, so active is not an option.
I am thinking about embedding a "DIRECT / -x dB" switch to the back of the mid+tweeter cabinets so we can use them in "-x dB" mode when using a single 2-in-1 amplifier to power woofers+mids+tweeters, but have the "DIRECT" mode when we want to use a separate, more audiophile but less powerful power-amp on the mids+tweeters in the future (Xenia would love to get/build a nice tube-amp in the future and she also owns an oldskool Sansui AU-555a she wants to restore one day...).
Isabelle
Well your passive XO for the bass section is going to need a rather large inductor (for a 60Hz XO). So that's why I thought active would not be that much more expensive.
The subwoofer-amp we're gonna buy (Reckhorn A-403) has a built-in active XO, so the subwoofer will be filtered active.
If we can use a stereo-amp with pre-out/main-in connections (and the pre-outs actually follow the volume control) rather than using speaker-level signal to the sub-amp, we can even do the high-pass XO of the midbasswoofers active.
The passive filtered part will only be:
- Low-Pass on the midbasswoofer, somewhere between 250 and 750 Hz, whatever does the job best, probably 2nd order
- High-Pass on the mids, somewhere between 250 and 750Hz, whatever does the job best, 2nd or 1st order.
- Low-Pass on the mids, somewhere between 4 and 8kHz, 2nd or 1st order, whatever blends the best with the tweeters.
- High-Pass on the tweeters, most likely 6-6.5kHz 2nd order.
- The necessary attenuation to match the drivers' output levels.
Because of the way these speakers will be built, they will automatically be tri-ampable (sub / woofers / mids+tweeters), which is very interesting, since Xenia wants a tube-amplifier in the near future, so this tube-amplifier can power the mids+tweeters...
BUT... both the mids and tweeters will probably be attenuated to match the woofers when the speakers are bi-amped (sub / woofers+mids+tweeters), so if we'd just remove the link between the woofer-cabinets and mid+tweeter-cabinets and hook up the mid+tweeter-cabinets to another amplifier, that other amplifier would need to be just as powerful as the amp that's powering the woofers, while the mids and tweeters don't need that much power, because of the attenuation networks...
So I was thinking, what if we'd use a tweeter (most efficient driver) attenuator that's just righ to match the tweeters with the mids and then use an "over-all" attenuation network to match the mids+tweeters with the woofers and find out a way to bypass this "over-all attenuation"?
I looked at the schematics of an attenuation network (very simple, just a series- and a parallel-resistor) and thought: "How can I make this completely disappear without actually removing the network when needed?"
And I came up with this: see attachment
"Directe modus" means "direct mode"
"Verzwakte modus" means "attenuated mode"
Now, if we want to use these speakers bi-amped, so the mids+tweeters are driven by the same powerful amp as the woofers, we can set them to "attenuated mode", but when we want to use a separate, less powerful amp on mids+tweeters, we can easily change them (with a switch or with a jumper-wire) to "direct mode" to raise the efficiency of the mid+tweeter cabinets.
If we can use a stereo-amp with pre-out/main-in connections (and the pre-outs actually follow the volume control) rather than using speaker-level signal to the sub-amp, we can even do the high-pass XO of the midbasswoofers active.
The passive filtered part will only be:
- Low-Pass on the midbasswoofer, somewhere between 250 and 750 Hz, whatever does the job best, probably 2nd order
- High-Pass on the mids, somewhere between 250 and 750Hz, whatever does the job best, 2nd or 1st order.
- Low-Pass on the mids, somewhere between 4 and 8kHz, 2nd or 1st order, whatever blends the best with the tweeters.
- High-Pass on the tweeters, most likely 6-6.5kHz 2nd order.
- The necessary attenuation to match the drivers' output levels.
Because of the way these speakers will be built, they will automatically be tri-ampable (sub / woofers / mids+tweeters), which is very interesting, since Xenia wants a tube-amplifier in the near future, so this tube-amplifier can power the mids+tweeters...
BUT... both the mids and tweeters will probably be attenuated to match the woofers when the speakers are bi-amped (sub / woofers+mids+tweeters), so if we'd just remove the link between the woofer-cabinets and mid+tweeter-cabinets and hook up the mid+tweeter-cabinets to another amplifier, that other amplifier would need to be just as powerful as the amp that's powering the woofers, while the mids and tweeters don't need that much power, because of the attenuation networks...
So I was thinking, what if we'd use a tweeter (most efficient driver) attenuator that's just righ to match the tweeters with the mids and then use an "over-all" attenuation network to match the mids+tweeters with the woofers and find out a way to bypass this "over-all attenuation"?
I looked at the schematics of an attenuation network (very simple, just a series- and a parallel-resistor) and thought: "How can I make this completely disappear without actually removing the network when needed?"
And I came up with this: see attachment
"Directe modus" means "direct mode"
"Verzwakte modus" means "attenuated mode"
Now, if we want to use these speakers bi-amped, so the mids+tweeters are driven by the same powerful amp as the woofers, we can set them to "attenuated mode", but when we want to use a separate, less powerful amp on mids+tweeters, we can easily change them (with a switch or with a jumper-wire) to "direct mode" to raise the efficiency of the mid+tweeter cabinets.
Attachments
We don't know anybody who has a Behringer 2496... We do own some active caraudio x-overs, but they all have fixed slopes of 18dB/oct, but that's not gonna help us, since we don't want to use 18dB/oct slopes in this project...
We are planning to buy a measuring microphone and a USB soundcard with phantom powered mic-input, so that will help us too...
Isabelle (on Xenias laptop atm.)
We are planning to buy a measuring microphone and a USB soundcard with phantom powered mic-input, so that will help us too...
Isabelle (on Xenias laptop atm.)
My fear is that you guys have too many variables to consdier. 3 crossover points, crossover slopes, and speaker levels besides any anmolies of the driver frequency response and impedance.
for example, I have often found that the slope need not be 6db/oct or 12/oct but sometimes 9db/oct is what sounds best.
Before you start try and download LspCad and play around with various slopes and crossover topologies. It will help you better understand what is happening.
for example, I have often found that the slope need not be 6db/oct or 12/oct but sometimes 9db/oct is what sounds best.
Before you start try and download LspCad and play around with various slopes and crossover topologies. It will help you better understand what is happening.
Update: Xenia bought herself a Saab 900 classic again (she used to have one, but sold it and she always regretted that).
Since that car needs a nice system too and we can't afford to buy new audio stuff at the moment (just bought a house, ordered a new set of sofas, bought the Saab, still not having any decent heating system in our house...), we'll use the HiVi M8a's in the Saab, and if we can find a way to fit them, the TangBand W4 titaniums will go in the Saab too.
We will not use the Fountek tweeters, nor the Peerless XXLS subs and PR's, so this home-audio design can still be made in the near future, when there is more money to buy new woofers (and maybe mids), or as a 3-ways setup with the subs crossed to the mids, without woofers (probably the best choice, certainly the cheapest and easiest)...
Personally, I don't think the W4 titaniums will fit in the Saab in a nice way and since we'll use the HiVi M8a woofers (which can easily play up to 1kHz), I think it's better to order a pair of good 3" fullrangers (We're thinking of the TangBand W3-1285) that are easier to fit in the Saab instead of modifying the hell out of it to get the W4's in it...
Isabelle
Since that car needs a nice system too and we can't afford to buy new audio stuff at the moment (just bought a house, ordered a new set of sofas, bought the Saab, still not having any decent heating system in our house...), we'll use the HiVi M8a's in the Saab, and if we can find a way to fit them, the TangBand W4 titaniums will go in the Saab too.
We will not use the Fountek tweeters, nor the Peerless XXLS subs and PR's, so this home-audio design can still be made in the near future, when there is more money to buy new woofers (and maybe mids), or as a 3-ways setup with the subs crossed to the mids, without woofers (probably the best choice, certainly the cheapest and easiest)...
Personally, I don't think the W4 titaniums will fit in the Saab in a nice way and since we'll use the HiVi M8a woofers (which can easily play up to 1kHz), I think it's better to order a pair of good 3" fullrangers (We're thinking of the TangBand W3-1285) that are easier to fit in the Saab instead of modifying the hell out of it to get the W4's in it...
Isabelle
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Hi Isabelle,
It is a shame you stop your plan. I think the drivers you have are all perfect choises.
I want to change your mind to build a 3 way bandpass. So a two way with neo and w4 and inside the closed bandpass the xxls.
Some thing like this.
It appears to me that you did struggle with a attentuation off your neo. All-dough you appear to be a very bright girl.
The attenuation with two resistors is chosen in a way the resistance the filter will see is 8 Ohm like the driver was. It isn't a law but the common way to do so.
The resistors will even flatten the impedance so it is a more perfect resistor for your filter. So you can better predict the behavior.
To calculate the attenuation you need to know what you need lets say -4dB.
Than the attenuation is. -4/10 (10log) => -0,4 ivn log =0,398
R total=8Ohm
0,398=( Rneo//R2)/Rtotal => 0,398*Rtotal= (Rneo//R2) now you know R2
R1 = 8-(Rneo//R2)
Damping factor = Rneo/(R1//R2) is often a better one then with a 1st order slope fllter.
Or much better then the the option you call direct mode. The bad damping can appear like harsh or SSS-sound.
Regards Helmuth
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Hi, we won't stop this project, we'll just delay it and change it slightly.
We will keep the Fountek NeoCD1.0 tweeter and the Peerless XXLS sub + PR's.
I talked with Xenia about this in the meanwhile (she was out shopping while I posted my previous post) and she agrees a pair of 3" fullrangers will probably be a better choice in the Saab, combined with the HiVi woofers, so the TangBand W4 titaniums will most likely stay too...
The only part of this project that will change is the woofer and then there are 2 options:
- Use other woofers
- Cross the subs higher and the mids lower and don't use any woofers at all
Isabelle
We will keep the Fountek NeoCD1.0 tweeter and the Peerless XXLS sub + PR's.
I talked with Xenia about this in the meanwhile (she was out shopping while I posted my previous post) and she agrees a pair of 3" fullrangers will probably be a better choice in the Saab, combined with the HiVi woofers, so the TangBand W4 titaniums will most likely stay too...
The only part of this project that will change is the woofer and then there are 2 options:
- Use other woofers
- Cross the subs higher and the mids lower and don't use any woofers at all
Isabelle
I do not see restrictions in crossing a w4 and the xxls, only thing I ask my self is the woofer 4Ohm and the W4 8ohm?
If we choose to go 3-ways, the crossover between sub and fullranger will be active and the crossover between fullranger and tweeter passive.
If we choose to go 4-ways, the crossover between sub and woofer will be active, the crossover between woofer and fullranger passive and the crossover between fullranger and tweeter also passive.
If you guys think crossing the XXLS subs to the W4's without a filling-woofer between them, this would probably be a better solution than using another pair of woofers we have laying around (either the SoundStream SS8's or the Nova MDS08's, which both don't really match in sound charactre I think).
Isabelle
If we choose to go 4-ways, the crossover between sub and woofer will be active, the crossover between woofer and fullranger passive and the crossover between fullranger and tweeter also passive.
If you guys think crossing the XXLS subs to the W4's without a filling-woofer between them, this would probably be a better solution than using another pair of woofers we have laying around (either the SoundStream SS8's or the Nova MDS08's, which both don't really match in sound charactre I think).
Isabelle
About matching sound character I found out that with passive XO components and playing with the Qts factor you can do quite a bit in changing the sound of a particular driver.
It takes a lot of work and investments to get experienced in knowing the sound of different capacitors and in placing smart attenuation and resistors(Qts) to become a right sound.
I use measurements and my ears to become at a higher level when tuning the system.
To help I can say IMO the "Janzen superior z" really ads detail and brightnes to high region.
Clarity cap Sa sounds good only I missed the sharper contour that the Janzen has.
Also I did try Tinfoil I likes them first but after listening a lot and comparing it with thew other two it sounded nice bright and detailed like I want only it had a thinner "nasaal" sound to it(dutch, it sounds like though the nose), not warm enough.
And I had some MKT types who are already very good when your not to demanding.
To compare the different capacitors I would advise to tune first with capacitors you already have or cheap bipolar ones, till you have a perfect response near flat. Then compare the sound with a Janzen cap for example. The differences are subtile, but for freaks a huge difference
I also did tests with silver wire there are also silver foil capacitors. Adding silver did sound very bright witch I really liked only it takes al the warmth out off the music. It sounds to clean and to clinical. So it advise to try it as tuning of the high region not for mid and low.
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Hi,
Personally, I'm not much of a believer when it comes to expensive "high-end" wires and passive components as long as the cheaper alternatives are sufficient.
This means I'll rather exchange a 1mm² copper speakerwire by a 2.5mm² copper speaker wire than by a 1mm² silver wire or route it differently to avoid interference with the coils.
As for caps and coils, I think cheaper components (but still made for this job and within acceptable tolerances) should do the job just fine.
I'm sure replacing a cap by a more expensive high-end one will result in subtle changes because of the better internal resistance or the more stable capacitance, but I'm pretty sure using a cheaper cap with a slightly different value will have a lot more influence on the sound.
I like to let drivers sound how they would sound if you'd just connect them directly to an amp, with no correction at all. If I have to tune the sound of a driver to make it sound warmer/brighter/softer/more clinical/... I'm convinced that's because I did a crappy job selecting my drivers.
I'm pretty sure the coated aluminium HiVi M8a's would have been perfect filling-woofers between the Nomex Peerless XXLSes and the titanium TangBand W4's.
I seriously doubt any of the other options (paper coned SoundStream SS8 or kevlar coned, very low x-max Nova MDS08) would do the job as filling woofer in this setup just as fine, so I guess it will be wiser to go the 3-ways route, which is also cheaper and easier.
Since we like the design that was planned, we're gonna have to figure something out to decorate the middle enclosure (which we will now probably use as space for the passive crossover network for the mids and tweeters) now it won't house a big 8.5" woofer anymore to break the cubism...
Isabelle
Personally, I'm not much of a believer when it comes to expensive "high-end" wires and passive components as long as the cheaper alternatives are sufficient.
This means I'll rather exchange a 1mm² copper speakerwire by a 2.5mm² copper speaker wire than by a 1mm² silver wire or route it differently to avoid interference with the coils.
As for caps and coils, I think cheaper components (but still made for this job and within acceptable tolerances) should do the job just fine.
I'm sure replacing a cap by a more expensive high-end one will result in subtle changes because of the better internal resistance or the more stable capacitance, but I'm pretty sure using a cheaper cap with a slightly different value will have a lot more influence on the sound.
I like to let drivers sound how they would sound if you'd just connect them directly to an amp, with no correction at all. If I have to tune the sound of a driver to make it sound warmer/brighter/softer/more clinical/... I'm convinced that's because I did a crappy job selecting my drivers.
I'm pretty sure the coated aluminium HiVi M8a's would have been perfect filling-woofers between the Nomex Peerless XXLSes and the titanium TangBand W4's.
I seriously doubt any of the other options (paper coned SoundStream SS8 or kevlar coned, very low x-max Nova MDS08) would do the job as filling woofer in this setup just as fine, so I guess it will be wiser to go the 3-ways route, which is also cheaper and easier.
Since we like the design that was planned, we're gonna have to figure something out to decorate the middle enclosure (which we will now probably use as space for the passive crossover network for the mids and tweeters) now it won't house a big 8.5" woofer anymore to break the cubism...
Isabelle
I would agree with you on that if I didn't know better now. I work at a engineering department we make electronic-power supply's and lamp drivers 50W to 44kW. Al lot of engineers have also a hobby on audio.
We use a lot of film capacitors. There some they get a smile on their face when this theme is mentioned. Other also try what works best.
I say mkt works fine, to get the best I like janzen cap as a series capasitor with the tweeter.
I laugh about a net filter of my colleague. I tried it the sound stage moved towards me, can't tell if it is better it was good detectable to hear.
Now I will not have a meaning with out listening to it.
What comes to a active connection this can also give higher order resonances because the amp tries to control it. A serie resistor may seem fault. But your voice coil is in fact a resistor in series with a coil. A extra resistor will change the TS parameters a bit, and hopefully in your advantage.
In fact is controlling the behavior of your driver with passive filter parts the real job to make a good loudspeaker. A active system is become easy with dsp technology. It will make a good loud speaker but there are also side-effects. This is why you think the drivers are not good enough.
It doesn't cost much to do experiments because you already have the drivers. And try to modify the sound.
I do not have the ambition to check the (lack of) influence of different types of caps and coils with the same values.
We have a couple MKT capacitors laying around to use as tweeter-protectors in our fully active caraudio projects.
When we're 100% sure the amps (Genesis Dual Mono's, Clarion APA4300HX's, McIntosh MC427 and MC420M... absolutely no junk) power on and off without thumps or cracks, we're gonna try and hear if leaving the protective caps out changes anything noticable about the sound, but I don't expect any real difference actually.
I do believe different types of capacitors may have a subtile influence on the sound, especially when connected in series to the driver, but is that because the cheaper MKT's influence the sound in a negative way, or because the more expensive ones add some color?
If we cannot hear any real differences with or without the series tweeter-protective MKT caps, the first statement is eliminated and we're happy (since MKT's seem to be neutral without costing a lot).
I am not a fan of modifying how a speaker sounds. My opinion is a passive crossovernetwork should make the driver stay within its passband and correct possible negative influences of the enclosure or room, not to correct flaws of the driver or make up for bad matching of the gear.
IMO, the best crossovernetwork is no crossovernetwork at all. Unfortunately, there isn't any driver out there that is able to produce <20Hz to >20kHz with little distortion and beaming...
I just checked in WinISD, the TangBand W4 titaniums stay at or below their Xmax when throwing 50W (their maximum power handling and more than enough to get serious ear damnage) at them with any type of 2nd, 3rd or 4th order high-pass crossover at 125Hz applied, so I'm pretty sure we can easily get away without a filling woofer between the subs and W4's, which is a much better, cheaper and easier solution than using a badly matching filling woofer.
Another advantage of this solution is that the mids won't need to be attenuated because of a less efficient filling woofer, increasing the efficiency of the system, allowing us to power the mids and tweeters with a tube amp in the future without having to design some sort of on/off-switchable attenuation network.
Isabelle
We have a couple MKT capacitors laying around to use as tweeter-protectors in our fully active caraudio projects.
When we're 100% sure the amps (Genesis Dual Mono's, Clarion APA4300HX's, McIntosh MC427 and MC420M... absolutely no junk) power on and off without thumps or cracks, we're gonna try and hear if leaving the protective caps out changes anything noticable about the sound, but I don't expect any real difference actually.
I do believe different types of capacitors may have a subtile influence on the sound, especially when connected in series to the driver, but is that because the cheaper MKT's influence the sound in a negative way, or because the more expensive ones add some color?
If we cannot hear any real differences with or without the series tweeter-protective MKT caps, the first statement is eliminated and we're happy (since MKT's seem to be neutral without costing a lot).
I am not a fan of modifying how a speaker sounds. My opinion is a passive crossovernetwork should make the driver stay within its passband and correct possible negative influences of the enclosure or room, not to correct flaws of the driver or make up for bad matching of the gear.
IMO, the best crossovernetwork is no crossovernetwork at all. Unfortunately, there isn't any driver out there that is able to produce <20Hz to >20kHz with little distortion and beaming...
I just checked in WinISD, the TangBand W4 titaniums stay at or below their Xmax when throwing 50W (their maximum power handling and more than enough to get serious ear damnage) at them with any type of 2nd, 3rd or 4th order high-pass crossover at 125Hz applied, so I'm pretty sure we can easily get away without a filling woofer between the subs and W4's, which is a much better, cheaper and easier solution than using a badly matching filling woofer.
Another advantage of this solution is that the mids won't need to be attenuated because of a less efficient filling woofer, increasing the efficiency of the system, allowing us to power the mids and tweeters with a tube amp in the future without having to design some sort of on/off-switchable attenuation network.
Isabelle
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