The "new" inverted technology means that the stepped up
audio signal is fed to the membrane and that there are two
bias voltages, negative to one of the stators and positive to the
other.
This means that You can reduce the audio step up ratio to half
the ratio in normal speakers for the same output.
The bias supply for the stators must be of low impedance in
the used audio spectrum, which must mean that You can get
a pretty good zap if the stators are uninsulated, especially if You touch both stators at the same time!
I don't know what's new in The Final patent of "Inverted Technology", it's very dim (to me) in it's description, but
I have a theory that assumes a very clever trick from the designers at Final that will only work with this technology:
Lets say that the membrane has a very controlled resistivity, and that the audio signal is fed via a long vertical contact strip.
The membrane resistivity and the inherent capacity between
stator and membrane functions as a low pass filter and high frequencies will emanate only from area close the contact strip, and low frequencies will emanate from the entire membrane.
This speaker will have a built in step less low pass filter chain, which will reduce beaming effects.
But, as I said, it's just a theory.
audio signal is fed to the membrane and that there are two
bias voltages, negative to one of the stators and positive to the
other.
This means that You can reduce the audio step up ratio to half
the ratio in normal speakers for the same output.
The bias supply for the stators must be of low impedance in
the used audio spectrum, which must mean that You can get
a pretty good zap if the stators are uninsulated, especially if You touch both stators at the same time!
I don't know what's new in The Final patent of "Inverted Technology", it's very dim (to me) in it's description, but
I have a theory that assumes a very clever trick from the designers at Final that will only work with this technology:
Lets say that the membrane has a very controlled resistivity, and that the audio signal is fed via a long vertical contact strip.
The membrane resistivity and the inherent capacity between
stator and membrane functions as a low pass filter and high frequencies will emanate only from area close the contact strip, and low frequencies will emanate from the entire membrane.
This speaker will have a built in step less low pass filter chain, which will reduce beaming effects.
But, as I said, it's just a theory.
nice theory dude, but i had one question.
ok the negative en positif bias voltage i can understand its like the normal High current unit of an esl (is negative). but how do you fed an audio signal to a membrane ? can you draw it ? how the setup would look. its nice to try out sometime
and for the beaming i think they use spacers to spread the higher frewuenties and to make sure the foil wont hit stators.
ok the negative en positif bias voltage i can understand its like the normal High current unit of an esl (is negative). but how do you fed an audio signal to a membrane ? can you draw it ? how the setup would look. its nice to try out sometime
and for the beaming i think they use spacers to spread the higher frewuenties and to make sure the foil wont hit stators.
Hi,
when You know how a symmetric ESL is wired just interchange the audio tranny for the bias supply and the halfs of the tranny with 2 bias supplies, thats all basically!
When You look at the simple force-equations of a symmetrical ESL there is indeed a doubling of forces or a halving of the transormer ratio hence higher and less stressing impedance values for the amp possible.
The diaphragm itself needs an very low impedance coating since the charge has to built up and distribute over the complete area at least with slew rates allowing 20kHz.
This makes this ESL an constant voltage type whiches distortion are only low with small excursions. The use of two stators surely reduces the distortion, but it´ll be still higher than with an constant charge ESL.
The claimed reduction of a risc of electrical shock might be true, but to function properly a capacitor has be switched between the output of each bias-supply and GND (connection to audio-tranny). This capacitor has two effects.
First it forms a smoothing cap for the bias supply. As such it could be of very small value. In a normal supply this cap is followed by a high ohmic resistance that reduces the possible currents to a safe value.
Second it forms an AC-current-path (DC-blocking) which You need to close the current-path for the ESL and audio-tranny. This is not needed in a classical ESL.
Third it forms a voltage divider with the capacitance of the panel. As such its value should be considerably greater (>5-10times) than the panels capacitance to keep signal loss small.
But a large cap stores a lot of energy, so that in case of an electrical shock this would be much worse than with a smaller value as its used in a classical bias-supply. It might probabely be less than the shock You get when the stator is connected via the tranny to he amp.
Since with an high impedance coating (i.e. constant charge) the risc of a flashover (especially hot flashovers) is greatly minimized and so the risc of destroying the coating or the whole membrane, it´d be interesting to know, how long a membrane will last.
jauu
Calvin
ps. unbelievable that a app. 100year old invention is patentable even nowadays. Where is just one new idea here?????
when You know how a symmetric ESL is wired just interchange the audio tranny for the bias supply and the halfs of the tranny with 2 bias supplies, thats all basically!
When You look at the simple force-equations of a symmetrical ESL there is indeed a doubling of forces or a halving of the transormer ratio hence higher and less stressing impedance values for the amp possible.
The diaphragm itself needs an very low impedance coating since the charge has to built up and distribute over the complete area at least with slew rates allowing 20kHz.
This makes this ESL an constant voltage type whiches distortion are only low with small excursions. The use of two stators surely reduces the distortion, but it´ll be still higher than with an constant charge ESL.
The claimed reduction of a risc of electrical shock might be true, but to function properly a capacitor has be switched between the output of each bias-supply and GND (connection to audio-tranny). This capacitor has two effects.
First it forms a smoothing cap for the bias supply. As such it could be of very small value. In a normal supply this cap is followed by a high ohmic resistance that reduces the possible currents to a safe value.
Second it forms an AC-current-path (DC-blocking) which You need to close the current-path for the ESL and audio-tranny. This is not needed in a classical ESL.
Third it forms a voltage divider with the capacitance of the panel. As such its value should be considerably greater (>5-10times) than the panels capacitance to keep signal loss small.
But a large cap stores a lot of energy, so that in case of an electrical shock this would be much worse than with a smaller value as its used in a classical bias-supply. It might probabely be less than the shock You get when the stator is connected via the tranny to he amp.
Since with an high impedance coating (i.e. constant charge) the risc of a flashover (especially hot flashovers) is greatly minimized and so the risc of destroying the coating or the whole membrane, it´d be interesting to know, how long a membrane will last.
jauu
Calvin
ps. unbelievable that a app. 100year old invention is patentable even nowadays. Where is just one new idea here?????
final esl speakers
My experience with them has not been very good! I've tried several times to get information as to where I can hear these speakers in the US, in the NC area. The distributor has never answered my emails!! I wanted to set up a surround sound system with them. The reviews read well and the CES show blurbs on them were interesting. I got tired of waiting for a response. I bought Martin Logans instead. I am very happy! I am using the cinema center channel and the script i's for the fronts and rears. Can you say Schweeettt!!!!!
al r.
never
My experience with them has not been very good! I've tried several times to get information as to where I can hear these speakers in the US, in the NC area. The distributor has never answered my emails!! I wanted to set up a surround sound system with them. The reviews read well and the CES show blurbs on them were interesting. I got tired of waiting for a response. I bought Martin Logans instead. I am very happy! I am using the cinema center channel and the script i's for the fronts and rears. Can you say Schweeettt!!!!!
al r.
neverSorry if I sound as a "Besserwisser", but spacers does not counteract beaming.
If this where the case late inventor of QUAD Esl 63, Peter Walker, wouldn't have gone through the ordeal of designing intriguing delay circuits for this eminent loudspeaker.
It's the whole width and length of the sound producing area, with or without spacers, that determines how a sound wave is spread at a certain frequency.
In the "Final" case, the spacers asymmetrical placement is meant only for giving the membrane support and to split up the fundamental resonance into several minor less prone ones.
WrineX said:
This is only true when the strips have no adjacent strips producing high freq. too . So a SINGLE small strip will have good dispersion as can be calculated with classic difraction formula.
MANY small strips (all producing high freq.) side by side will result in an interference pattern which resembles a large single sheet, so having just as poor dispersion as the large sheet. BTW I have not taken into account the width of the spacers as I assume them to be very small compared to the highest freq.)
Final listening
As for the poor availability of Final products, I guess it is just a lack of US distributor? I am based in the UK and heard a pair through UKD.
I am not affiliated with them in any way. I loved them. Unfortunately just too expensive for me, but I have heard something very special and always will be thinking about them for when cash flow is different.
Still doesn't excuse poor service in getting a supplier that answers emails though. If they get their act together maybe some of those wouldbe Martin Logan purchasers might just come their way.
As for the poor availability of Final products, I guess it is just a lack of US distributor? I am based in the UK and heard a pair through UKD.
I am not affiliated with them in any way. I loved them. Unfortunately just too expensive for me, but I have heard something very special and always will be thinking about them for when cash flow is different.
Still doesn't excuse poor service in getting a supplier that answers emails though. If they get their act together maybe some of those wouldbe Martin Logan purchasers might just come their way.
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