I said that this was one of my many questions about FFTs. I didn't realise that I would be pinned to my collar with a very exact definition of your limits to the question.
In the few instances where other people have reported to me that they didn't hear differences between stock & modified Hiface, either we have not found out the reason or the reason has been because there is something manipulating the signal, either an ASRC or JISCO or ...... I'll admit I'm confused by your & SY's results & looking for the possible underlying reasons. This may seem to you like I don't accept the results but to me it's a search for the truth. Your truth is that you hear no difference - I know that in 99% of the hundreds of users there is a difference & you guys are in the 1% section. unusual that you both are in that group but that's the way it is.
Now to your second point - just saying here's the FFT plots, accept them is not really the full picture is it? And I'm asking about the full picture - are phase plots of importance? Is the test equipment important? These are not questions that you can brush aside by stating that I'm unhappy with the measurements.
I did question the initial measurements by looking for some evidence that the set-up was capable but no evidence was presented.
Yes, your argument is valid - you did use a range of DACs & it is repeatable in your system. I don't know the answer but am sure there is an answer - just that we haven't found it?
Joseph K's measurements are also repeatable, so his fall into the same category.
But you can also see that stating something is below the -120dB "noise floor" is a misleading & incorrect statement when it comes to the FFT plots & could be responsible for confusion with the plots
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Because its what's called ad hominem. You've come across that before?
I interpret that as you have an aversion to my words. I read the rules last night and it defined 'trolling' as (paraphrasing) 'posting with the intent to provoke an emotional reaction'. Its fallacious to invert that and say that because you're experiencing an emotional reaction therefore it must be my intent to provoke it.
If you're referring to the earlier 'question' its invalid. As I've pointed out already. If you take out the false premise, we can proceed. Otherwise its rather akin to 'When did you stop beating your wife?'.
Correct. In this case when I hear a difference I can measure it. When I don't hear a difference, I don't see it in the measurements. (Well, I do see a tiny difference, but don't hear it.)
So for me, the measurements agree with my listening tests. I call the results valid. I found no significant difference between a HiFace device and my Azuntech PCI soundcard. Both do a fine job. I suspect that the measurements SY made are also valid. I do not have the same converter that he has, but think I have the same Burr Brown USB-SPDIF chip. I may test it, just to see and hear.
So for me, the measurements agree with my listening tests. I call the results valid. I found no significant difference between a HiFace device and my Azuntech PCI soundcard. Both do a fine job. I suspect that the measurements SY made are also valid. I do not have the same converter that he has, but think I have the same Burr Brown USB-SPDIF chip. I may test it, just to see and hear.
Pano, that's as would be expected - nobody is disputing that. What might be worth asking is what is the resolution of the systems you are listening to & using as a measurement device?
You posted once that Gary Pimm's system was much more resolving & revealing & natural sounding than either yours or SY's - maybe something approaching this level of resolution is necessary to hear & measure the audible result of low jitter?
You posted once that Gary Pimm's system was much more resolving & revealing & natural sounding than either yours or SY's - maybe something approaching this level of resolution is necessary to hear & measure the audible result of low jitter?
The counter to that is - what about all the other folks who've heard a difference? At what level are their systems? The old "your system isn't good enough" argument is very tired. If someone claims to hear a difference, are they told "your system isn't good enough to hear a difference"? No? Why not?
The argument looks like clutching at straws. If it takes a system of that caliber to reveal the differences, then maybe a few 100 people in the world will notice it. A fairly limited audience.
I don't see what this has to do with spectrum analysis or FFTs.
The argument looks like clutching at straws. If it takes a system of that caliber to reveal the differences, then maybe a few 100 people in the world will notice it. A fairly limited audience.
I don't see what this has to do with spectrum analysis or FFTs.
I know it might seem that way - clutching at straws but I am genuinely trying to find an explanation - you are happy with the explanation " there is no difference & I/we are the truthful ones who see it for what it is" but I don't accept that to be the case. The fact that you don't hear any difference with/without attenuators reveals to me that your system is masking the reduction in jitter in some way that makes it inaudible.
I'm not saying that a system of Gary's calibre is necessary but I am pointing to the fact that there are differences between systems & Gary's is an extreme example of that perhaps. Fact is I don't know what is is in your system that is masking the audible difference. You are playing back WAV files through a player that doesn't manipulate the signal using Kernel Streaming on Windows XP directly into a playback system that comprises of a tube based headphone amplifier & headphones, I believe?
OK, I'll leave this line of questioning!
I'm not saying that a system of Gary's calibre is necessary but I am pointing to the fact that there are differences between systems & Gary's is an extreme example of that perhaps. Fact is I don't know what is is in your system that is masking the audible difference. You are playing back WAV files through a player that doesn't manipulate the signal using Kernel Streaming on Windows XP directly into a playback system that comprises of a tube based headphone amplifier & headphones, I believe?
OK, I'll leave this line of questioning!
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